Bleach 515 Discussion / 516 Predictions

[arisart]

So you basically saying that Shikai Kenpachi> shikai Yama. Then if ever Ken manages to acquire bankai he most probably be stronger than bankai Yama too, right? That's a bit too much imo. We're talking about a person who Aizen with his hougyoku was so wary that he created a special arrancar to seal his flames just to be sure. A person who had to be tricked by Bach who could have easily killed Ichigo just to steal his bankai before he could kill him. A person whose strength was honed through thousand of years of experience. I think only Ichigo would surpass Yama and no other (without outside help like Aizen has). Kenpachi would definitely be stronger than shikai Yama but has to go bankai first.

You might be right though about Ken getting beaten even before he goes all out on his reiatsu. But it only shows that we really don't know how strong the fake Bach is. So just by basing on what he did, I would still go for shikai Yama.

[counti]

I found a pretty cool fanart of Haschwald (although I think that I have seen him being white haired in one of the later color pages and the one in the first arc color page isn't him or it is a mistake):

Spoiler!

I actually tried to check if his name meant anything... from what I got, it means one of those:
- Hash Woods ;P (this just can't be real ;P),
- Chopped/Slashed Woods, or perhaps even Slashing Forest, or going overboard Slashing Forest Spirit (this is more about Kubo making another language mistake thought),
- Hunting/Chasing/Seeking Woods.

Most likely his name is in German, so the "Hasch", as a Hasch (which means Hash ;P) , or as in Haschen (which means Hunt/Seek etc.), then we have "wald", which can mean woods, forest (and other) etc.

I'm no expert and this was based upon an on-line dictionary, so don't expect much from it .

translating haschwald literally meas: hash woods
nothing indicates another meaning, maybe the translation from japanese to english fails a little but if its really haschwald, that'd be the correct translation, though I also think it's meant to be something like "haschen" translated as hunting/chasing/seeking maybe even through the woods.

but im bad at interpretating names

[Anubiz632]

I believe that a non eye patched Kenpachi is equal to or LESS than a shikai Yama. There's no way he surpasses Yama.

[Nihiiji]

Question: Everybody keeps saying Kenpachi got beat by the Fake Bach. Where is it shown that it was the fake and not the real one who beat Kenpachi? As we did not see the fight, is it too far-fetched for the real and fake to switch between Kenpachi losing and Yamamoto showing up? It just seems like a bullshit move to have Kenpachi take out three Quincy while still patched and then lose to the identical twin of one of those three while depatched.

What do you mean where ? When Yamamoto comes, the Fake Bach is holding Kenpachi in his grip, then Yamamoto comes, offs the Fake, the real one comes after being Time-Fu*ked by Aizen and kills Yamamoto, then Ichigo comes, they fight, then Bach is forced to return to the Shadow Land and while doing it Haschwald surpasses Ichigo in speed, power and technique... thus it couldn't be the real Bach, because Aizen was doing a certain trick to fool his time perception, it was unavoidable at that time. Haschwald seemingly backed out of their fight, so it really was the Fake Bach, because all this time, Bach was trying to persuade Aizen into joining him (interesting enough, he didn't mind a Shinigami joining their ranks.... or is he not one as well ?)

Xioaxioa - your theory is still very much possible.

Zero - I'd say I... 80% believe that this straight-forward interpretation is in fact "the story." However, the story has not contradicted Xioa's (and my) theory.

Real Bach - "Hey fake Bach, I just killed Kenpachi. Hold his bloody corpse so Yamma isn't even skeptical that you are ME. I need a bit of time to go consult with Aizen."
Fake Bach - "Sure thing boss"
Real Bach - "Remember, I ordered you not to do anything until I get back since you don't have the ability to handle a Ban Kai like Tenchi."
Fake Bach - "Okay, I'll do that hiding in the circle of light thing - hopefully there are no zombies."

...Or maybe you made some point I am failing to understand. I am specifically looking at this sentence here:

"it couldn't be the real Bach, because Aizen was doing a certain trick to fool his time perception, it was unavoidable at that time."

Why does the "time trick" mean that it couldn't be so?? Real Bach, in this theory, would be visiting Aizen and getting "tricked" at the same time as the fake Bach meets Yamma.

As far as I know, there is nothing in the story that contradicts the idea that THE REAL Juha Bach offed Kenpachi himself before departing to visit Aizen whilst Fake Bach entertained Yamma.

By the by the by the way... I agree there's nothing that proves Kenpachi fought with his eyepatch off (and thus at full ability). We saw a mangled corpse being carried around without the eye-patch on, we did not see Kenpachi fight without the patch. Anyone forget how easily the patch has come off UNINTENTIONALLY in battle? This dude was apparently DEAD for all we knew. Surely being all-but-killed provided enough of an altercation for the eye-patch to end up separated from an already-defeated Kenpachi. Hell - Juha Bach could even manually remove it from his body before handing it off to Fake Bach to really "sell" the idea that this must be Bach if he defeated an un-patched Kenpachi.

However...

"The thing is, everyone would have felt that Kenpachi have released his power, yet it didn't seem that way. "

I just wanted to point out... there was no instance in which it should have "felt" that way. Kenpachi was off-paneled, there was never a time when they represented the course of his fight LACKING that surge, they simply skipped past it, so we don't know.

And finally... Kenpachi being off-paneled by a supposed Bach... talk about skipping a great fight - if that fight was a scam it now makes perfect sense why we wouldn't be shown anything.

So yeah... it is entirely possible that either Fake or Real Bach fought Kenpachi, and it is entirely possible that Kenpachi fought with OR without his patch.

If you are a Kenpachi fan - don't fret! It is possible your superstar lost to THE BOSS and didn't even remove his patch, which leaves Kenpachi's rep unscathed.

If you are a Kenpachi hater - smile smugly! It is possible some flubber whooped an unpatched Kenpachi!

[paulbee]

It's irrelevant. Fake Bach had the same powers as real Bach, so same difference.

[Zero]

It's irrelevant. Fake Bach had the same powers as real Bach, so same difference.

That's not quite it. The twin that turned into Bach, could only copy Appearance, Mind and Memories, while the one that turned into Kenpachi could copy Appearance, Power and Techniques... unfortunately, Kenpachi's power is quite unstable and he has no techniques to copy, that's why it was an "Avarage" fight for Kenpachi, since he only faced someone with the same power level, or at least the power at time of copying (he actually pulled the same trick on the copy that everyone else pulled to own Kenpachi, it seems ;P):

Spoiler!

Basically, Fach didn't posses the same amount of power nor techniques that Real Bach possessed. He was only able to use some techniques within Bach's mind that he himself would have been able to use and adapted a certain mindset along with his fighting style. You could say that Fach was an avarage SR, but with supreme experience of over 1000 years, while Fenpachi (fake Kenpachi), was only someone with Zaraki's power, but without his mindset (which is quite important in his fighting style) and experience.

Then again, the mangastream version phrased it a little differently. Unfortunately I don't have access to it so this has to do .

[Nihiiji]

It's irrelevant. Fake Bach had the same powers as real Bach, so same difference.

First I would like to point out the huge difference between having someone's "power" as opposed to having someone's "powers"
Having someone's powerS (with an S) means having abilities of the same type, not "having equal strength in those abilities."

Now let's look back to ch. 510 where we learn about Lloyd and Royd...

"was able to immitate people's power and techniques but not their appearance"
"was able to immitate people's memories and mind, though not their appearance"

(though they do now copy appearance of course... I am unsure whether the translation I read is wrong about them NOT copying apparance and they later gained the ability, or whether the translation here is accurate and they always copied appearance... inconsequential)

Now I'd like to highlight the difference between immitate and replicate. An immitation is an attempt at copying, a replication is success at copying something.

Next we visit ch. 51X in which the real Juha Bach says that he ordered the fake Bach not to do anything because only the real Bach had power capable of handling Yamma's bankai.

Bach himself declares thusly that the immitation Bach is INFERIOR.

Therefore this is absolutely relevant.

I know Bleach. I know Bleach gooood

EDIT: WOW mangastream translation is WAY different than the ones I read. It uses the term "perfectly copy"... well, translation is a huge issue in deciphering this situation....

I still fall back on this one thing - Bach himself claimed this copy was inferior to himself (as we could pretty much guess) so it IS relevant whether Kenpachi fought the actual Bach or a fake Bach)

[xioaxioa]

That's not quite it. The twin that turned into Bach, could only copy Appearance, Mind and Memories, while the one that turned into Kenpachi could copy Appearance, Power and Techniques... unfortunately, Kenpachi's power is quite unstable and he has no techniques to copy, that's why it was an "Avarage" fight for Kenpachi, since he only faced someone with the same power level, or at least the power at time of copying (he actually pulled the same trick on the copy that everyone else pulled to own Kenpachi, it seems ;P):

Spoiler!

Basically, Fach didn't posses the same amount of power nor techniques that Real Bach possessed. He was only able to use some techniques within Bach's mind that he himself would have been able to use and adapted a certain mindset along with his fighting style. You could say that Fach was an avarage SR, but with supreme experience of over 1000 years, while Fenpachi (fake Kenpachi), was only someone with Zaraki's power, but without his mindset (which is quite important in his fighting style) and experience.

Then again, the mangastream version phrased it a little differently. Unfortunately I don't have access to it so this has to do .

http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...24-page-5.html

[Zero]

http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...24-page-5.html

Thanks, but still it's more or less the same (the main mistake was about their ability to copy appearance). Fenpachi was Loyd Lloyd, while Fach was Royd Lloyd (this can get confusing ). Basically, the older one (Loyd) was able to copy power and techniques/abilities/skills along with appearance, while the younger one (Royd) was able to copy fighting style/mindset and memories/experience, along with appearance.

[paulbee]

First Kuboglyphics, now Kubocryptics, sheesh!

I'm confused....BLEACH!

Kubo's probably ROFLing at the state of his readers over this.