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  1. #51
    Que gatito mas leeendo!!! hikonami's Avatar
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    i think kakashi was still in shock after finding out his "heroic friend" is alive, besides he hadn't realized what has happed to obito, the sudden change. i think before the end of this chapter kakashi was in denial. but from now on he can be the legendary ninja he is and be in full mind to deal with obito. thanks to naruto's talk-no-jutsu after all....it's a powerful jutsu.......
    Miau, Miau, Miau.....prrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!!!!!!!!!!

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by POW View Post
    The jutsu actually belonged to the Uzamaki clan as Kushina taught it to Minato. An interesting question would be how did Kushina learn it if she was just a kid when she came to the Leaf? Did she come to the Leaf with some secret scrolls left by her elders?
    Yes, i guess i didn't express myself the right way i wanted, the jutsu was a secret from the uzumaki clan, but i was referring in the aspect that Minato was the one (in Konoha) that knew it and obviously Kushina (was it from her or an elder of the uzumaki that Minato learned ? i cant remember, have to read again).
    Even so, a trip to the Uzumaki Village in some later time, or and encouter with an uzumaki anywhere in the world, would be a logical explanation.

  3. #53
    Senior Member Inderos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Majere View Post
    Yes, i guess i didn't express myself the right way i wanted, the jutsu was a secret from the uzumaki clan, but i was referring in the aspect that Minato was the one (in Konoha) that knew it and obviously Kushina (was it from her or an elder of the uzumaki that Minato learned ? i cant remember, have to read again).
    Even so, a trip to the Uzumaki Village in some later time, or and encouter with an uzumaki anywhere in the world, would be a logical explanation.

    I'm pretty sure Kushina didn't teach it to Minato because supposedly only non jinchuuriki can use it. I wouldn't be surprised if Minato spent some time training in the Uzumaki village as a sign of good faith when Kushina left for Konoha.

  4. #54
    Yesss... Rlinfamous's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Inderos View Post
    I'm pretty sure Kushina didn't teach it to Minato because supposedly only non jinchuuriki can use it. I wouldn't be surprised if Minato spent some time training in the Uzumaki village as a sign of good faith when Kushina left for Konoha.
    It's also possible that Minato learned the principles of Sealing Jutsu from Kushina, then developed his own. Naruto did the same with his Rasengan variants after learning the basics of shape/elemental manipulation from Jiraiya/Kakashi.

  5. #55
    Senior Member knife eater's Avatar
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    Anybody consider that uzumaki chakra has a special property in that t acts naturally as a sealant or contributes a greater factor to sealing techniques? Mokuton and its shown different behaviors from different users suggests thus, if not preserves the idea through all known obstacles so far.
    _____
    Obito is Tobirama's great grandson. The proof is in the pudding.

  6. #56
    Senior Member Inderos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rlinfamous View Post
    It's also possible that Minato learned the principles of Sealing Jutsu from Kushina, then developed his own. Naruto did the same with his Rasengan variants after learning the basics of shape/elemental manipulation from Jiraiya/Kakashi.
    Yeah that would make Minato more badass if he invented the shiki fuujin, but I'm unsure. What if the shiki fuujin is another water-downed version of the original So6P's original jutsu?

  7. #57
    Senior Member knife eater's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Inderos View Post
    Yeah that would make Minato more badass if he invented the shiki fuujin, but I'm unsure. What if the shiki fuujin is another water-downed version of the original So6P's original jutsu?
    The considerations get more interesting... if not the jyubi then where did the sage receive his divine gifts and which gods (with an s) bestowed upon him favors? Shiki fuujin could be a matter of everyone else but so6p having to pay a higher price not having mastery of the related path or domain. Nothing about the technique needs be watered down especially if rinnegan elevates subject to object and "rule'. Either way, dealing with gods and figures that control much of a domain, realm, dimension or what have you would certainly be up the sage's alley if his work was to tie him to all things and subdue the 10 tails, the origin of all known concrete and most abstract substance.

    It still makes,minato a bad ass since the dead demon appeared and honored the price paid from a shinobi who didn't have indication of sagely prominence aside from knowing how to summon him. You can imagine what some of these extra-wordly supreme beings can be when cranky, just look at manda the super snake when pouting and stubbornly refusing to cooperate and obey his contract without further coercion!

    Much respect to minato and sarutobi for successfully closing the deal in their unwavering call of dead demon seal.

    Further considerations flesh out indications of preceding bloodlines, uzumaki before senju or if it's the other way around. The sheer power and utility of the summoning techniques is a sign that they were practiced before the influence of the 10 tails if the sage's era and would be crucial to the sage's negotiations of power and bargaining with whatever divine or demonic. The uzumaki could be as ancient to have originated to the precursors to even the sage himself where the sage was a marker of a "halfway point" and was instrumental in crafting the conditional yet pivotal roles of senju and uchiha to have both ego and reliance in harmony to achieve a greater power than any one person and the speculative union of hyuga and uzumaki was the toolbox for such a craft, worked into his offspring and spread about the minor bloodlines discovered by kabuto.

    I wonder if shiki fuujin could work on madara if the rinnegan is a mark of supremecy no matter if the caster sacrifices his or her life. Did the sage install a failsafe that supremecy is recognized only when the relationship between uchiha and senju succeeds beyond just weilding a swindled rinnegan? My guess is that knowing the names of the bijuu and the willing gift of their combined power makes the person the God and techniques like shiki fuujin become the efforts of your underling demons and henchmen and the price is they are allowed to do your bidding as your subject and not take your life as a lesser yet tenacious shinobi. Naruto will be a total badass. Every clone spamming shiki fuujin against madara's amassed army of dark wood clones and final form zetsu Hydra wood dragon fusions.
    _____
    Obito is Tobirama's great grandson. The proof is in the pudding.

  8. #58
    Senior Member Inderos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by knife eater View Post
    The considerations get more interesting... if not the jyubi then where did the sage receive his divine gifts and which gods (with an s) bestowed upon him favors? Shiki fuujin could be a matter of everyone else but so6p having to pay a higher price not having mastery of the related path or domain. Nothing about the technique needs be watered down especially if rinnegan elevates subject to object and "rule'. Either way, dealing with gods and figures that control much of a domain, realm, dimension or what have you would certainly be up the sage's alley if his work was to tie him to all things and subdue the 10 tails, the origin of all known concrete and most abstract substance.

    It still makes,minato a bad ass since the dead demon appeared and honored the price paid from a shinobi who didn't have indication of sagely prominence aside from knowing how to summon him. You can imagine what some of these extra-wordly supreme beings can be when cranky, just look at manda the super snake when pouting and stubbornly refusing to cooperate and obey his contract without further coercion!

    Much respect to minato and sarutobi for successfully closing the deal in their unwavering call of dead demon seal.

    Further considerations flesh out indications of preceding bloodlines, uzumaki before senju or if it's the other way around. The sheer power and utility of the summoning techniques is a sign that they were practiced before the influence of the 10 tails if the sage's era and would be crucial to the sage's negotiations of power and bargaining with whatever divine or demonic. The uzumaki could be as ancient to have originated to the precursors to even the sage himself where the sage was a marker of a "halfway point" and was instrumental in crafting the conditional yet pivotal roles of senju and uchiha to have both ego and reliance in harmony to achieve a greater power than any one person and the speculative union of hyuga and uzumaki was the toolbox for such a craft, worked into his offspring and spread about the minor bloodlines discovered by kabuto.

    I wonder if shiki fuujin could work on madara if the rinnegan is a mark of supremecy no matter if the caster sacrifices his or her life. Did the sage install a failsafe that supremecy is recognized only when the relationship between uchiha and senju succeeds beyond just weilding a swindled rinnegan? My guess is that knowing the names of the bijuu and the willing gift of their combined power makes the person the God and techniques like shiki fuujin become the efforts of your underling demons and henchmen and the price is they are allowed to do your bidding as your subject and not take your life as a lesser yet tenacious shinobi. Naruto will be a total badass. Every clone spamming shiki fuujin against madara's amassed army of dark wood clones and final form zetsu Hydra wood dragon fusions.


    Most of your post is pretty difficult to understand... but Naruto can't use the shiki fuujin with or without clones. The shiki fuujin can only be used by non-jinchuuriki. Shiki fuujin would definately work on Madara. It wasn't the Rinnegan that freed Madara from edo tensei, Madara just knew the right hand seals. If the Rinnegan can't break edo tensei, then I doubt it can break shiki fuujin. Tobi may have seen the Yondaime when he performed shiki fuujin on the kyuubi and Naruto. If Tobi does get talk-no-jutsu'd, this would be the perfect end for Madara. He can finally be reunited with his lover, Hashirama.


    To be honest though, I think that kind of ending would be pretty lame for this manga. I hope there's more to it. What would be really cool is if Obito uses shiki fuujin on Madara and when Madara's soul/chakra is gone, a curse seal activates on Madara's body allowing Orochimaru to finally have the Uchiha body of his dreams. There's still some major twists left in this story and Madara just doesn't seem like the end.

  9. #59
    Senior Member knife eater's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Inderos View Post
    Most of your post is pretty difficult to understand... but Naruto can't use the shiki fuujin with or without clones. The shiki fuujin can only be used by non-jinchuuriki. Shiki fuujin would definately work on Madara. It wasn't the Rinnegan that freed Madara from edo tensei, Madara just knew the right hand seals. If the Rinnegan can't break edo tensei, then I doubt it can break shiki fuujin. Tobi may have seen the Yondaime when he performed shiki fuujin on the kyuubi and Naruto. If Tobi does get talk-no-jutsu'd, this would be the perfect end for Madara. He can finally be reunited with his lover, Hashirama.


    To be honest though, I think that kind of ending would be pretty lame for this manga. I hope there's more to it. What would be really cool is if Obito uses shiki fuujin on Madara and when Madara's soul/chakra is gone, a curse seal activates on Madara's body allowing Orochimaru to finally have the Uchiha body of his dreams. There's still some major twists left in this story and Madara just doesn't seem like the end.
    I do suffer run on sentence syndrome. I wasn't saying naruto would use shiki fuujin as a jinchuuriki as he is now but after transcending the state and possessing the gifted power of all the tailed beasts. The heart of my post dealt with considering what gives a person supremacy or power over the more difficult to understand domains. Is it the rinnegan? Is it the ability to weild the jyubi's power? If a shinobi reaches such godly status or ability, how will that change such things like the dead demon seal? Will the exchange of the caster's life still be required when the caster is on a higher platform than the shiki fuujin ? If the sage used the shiki fuujin in his time of mastery over the 6 paths would he have been required to die or was the demon operating as subject in a spectrum and hierarchy of powers and domains.

    The scenario of godly naruto using shiki fuujin vs madara was to question how such a powerful and costly deal changes when used by and against matters of power that weigh equal to or greater than the demon or death God itself. Naruto being a jinchuriki is irrelevant, its the matter of him having the powers of a God at his disposal in some form or another, ofc from the combination of beasts.

    I also tried to mix morality into it but got sloppy. The last point was the fact that a tradition of extreme and divine touching sealing and summoning techniques gives the impression that they originate long before the sage because the sage would need them im culmination in tandem with his divine gifts to have achieved supremacy or equality with the jyubi. In the figurative cycle the sage seems more a halfway point between the primordial stages of the world and the end of that cycle ushered by naruto and sasuke.
    _____
    Obito is Tobirama's great grandson. The proof is in the pudding.

  10. #60
    Senior Member Inderos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by knife eater View Post
    I do suffer run on sentence syndrome. I wasn't saying naruto would use shiki fuujin as a jinchuuriki as he is now but after transcending the state and possessing the gifted power of all the tailed beasts. The heart of my post dealt with considering what gives a person supremacy or power over the more difficult to understand domains. Is it the rinnegan? Is it the ability to weild the jyubi's power? If a shinobi reaches such godly status or ability, how will that change such things like the dead demon seal? Will the exchange of the caster's life still be required when the caster is on a higher platform than the shiki fuujin ? If the sage used the shiki fuujin in his time of mastery over the 6 paths would he have been required to die or was the demon operating as subject in a spectrum and hierarchy of powers and domains.

    The scenario of godly naruto using shiki fuujin vs madara was to question how such a powerful and costly deal changes when used by and against matters of power that weigh equal to or greater than the demon or death God itself. Naruto being a jinchuriki is irrelevant, its the matter of him having the powers of a God at his disposal in some form or another, ofc from the combination of beasts.

    I also tried to mix morality into it but got sloppy. The last point was the fact that a tradition of extreme and divine touching sealing and summoning techniques gives the impression that they originate long before the sage because the sage would need them im culmination in tandem with his divine gifts to have achieved supremacy or equality with the jyubi. In the figurative cycle the sage seems more a halfway point between the primordial stages of the world and the end of that cycle ushered by naruto and sasuke.


    I don't think the Rinnegan is more powerful than the shiki fuujin. I think the shinigami exists on a different level than even the tailed beasts, seeing as it can seal a portion of their chakra until their next cycle of rebirth. If Naruto were to die and the kyuubi with him, the kyuubi would be reborn with yin and yang intact. However, no where in the manga is there evidence that the Rinnegan can bring people back to life after they've been sealed with shiki fuujin. The Rinnegan can't restore the Kyuubi's yin chakra either or Tobi wouldn't have needed Kinkaku and Ginkaku. Is it possible that when the original sage became the jyuubi's jinchuuriki, he sealed away half of it's chakra with a variant of shiki fuujin and now that the jyuubi has completed it's cycle of rebirth it regained the sealed chakra? What if the tailed beasts were created with just half of the jyuubi's true power?

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