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  1. #21
    Senior Member Shawshank's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Freakshow View Post
    Orochimaru is such a failure right^^

    That is why he got acknowledged by 1st, 2nd, 3rd and that's why he was one of Konoha's greatest pride. At a young age received the title Sannin. Being the genius in his team.

    Hes failed in life so he created, not a village but a freaking country of his own.
    Where he is the god, where over 1000 skilled ninja's lived under his orders.

    I mean, the guy failed pretty much every time, and his failure's granted him immortality and all this forbidden and S ranked jutsu's:

    -Curse Seal
    -Yamato No Orochi
    -Five Elemental Seal:
    -Great Breakthrough
    -Groundhog Decapitation
    -Hidden Shadow Snakes
    -Killing Intent
    -Kusanagi
    -Leech All Creation - Attack Prevention
    -Living Corpse Reincarnation
    -Molted Skin Substitution
    -Rashoumon
    -Resurrection to the Impure World
    -Shadow Clone
    -Snake Spitting
    -Soften Body Modification
    -Summoning gigantic animals
    -Temporary Body Paralysis
    -Violet Flames Array
    -White Snake Power


    More to prove how much of a failure Orochiamru is:

    He doesn't even have a Bloodline Limit what a failure!

    He doesn't have a bloodline yet he was considered the strongest in the Village together with multi failure Minato. He was that much of a failure..hanging out with hes failure bodies..^^

    He tricked the strongest organization, a bunch of bad@ss shinobis of the Narutoverse, and left ALIVE. Hes that much of a failure...


    In conclusion; Sarutobi (The professor of all Jutsu\The God of the shinobi world) sacrificed his own life using his ultimate Jutsu to cripple Orochimaru, taking away his Jutsu's, only to have him still be powerful enough to take on the other two sennins, Tsunade and Jiraiya....?

    Hes is that much of a failure! Get that true you're thick skull.

    Orochimaru hasn't failed. If he did he would only learn and gain more knowledge. He never lost his ambitions, thus hes goals never fail as long as his immortal.

    Hes a top tier. Acknowledge him or not. Try to replace the ignorance with acceptance. Denial won't take you anywhere............

    If you refuse, well this is what Orochimaru has to say>


    Spoiler!
    You can be the most powerful and/or skilled person in the world and still be a failure. That's all that really needs to be said, there are real world examples of people with a lot of power who are failures, just look at some world leaders in history.

  2. #22
    logical fans slavkovski's Avatar
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    i'm not talking about oro's failure in this thread, really, i just want to discuss how come people says sasuke is the #1 failed ninja although many other shinobi are a bigger failure than him?? really, cause i dont hate orochimaru at all..

    like what Gregg said, jiraiya also have some failure in his life, and when he fight Pain he stated that him self (failed to save his student and teacher, failed to reach his love..etc), and also tsunade, we know he feel very sorry about the fact that he couldnt protect the man he loves (Dan) and his own little brother... but that is not the point i want to make here...

    i just wanted to state that in this naruto-verse, sasuke clearly isnt or hasnt be the biggest failure shinobi, he maybe will be if he still wanted to be a villain and take revenge on all of konoha's but we will see that latter...

    so.. do u people agree with that???
    "Either Die as a Hero... or live long enough to see yourself becoming the villain..."
    "Knowledge is power"

  3. #23
    Lost in fathomed infinity Freakshow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Advocat View Post
    The contention here is on the term of what makes someone a "success" and others "failures."
    No one denies Oro's genius, that much is a given. But being a genius doesn't automatically make you a "success." This is why I tend to laugh when the hypocrisy of how someone can fanatically love Oro yet hate Sauske, when in fact they are much the same person - both extremely talented ninjas, both extremely ambitious with very clear and decisive goals, both the genius of their team and both betrayers of their village. Like how you say Orochimaru is a success because he could fight Tsunade and Jiraya at the same time, yet Sauske fought the entire Team 7 and defeated them soundly yet he's a failure. MAKES SENSE.
    Oh you're joking? It's confirmed. You're the new god of logic.
    How much logic you stated in one short post. It's really too much.

    -Comparing Sasuke to Orochimaru.
    -Comparing the sannin fight to team 7 reunion fight!
    -Even stating Sasuke's defeated the entire team 7
    (In attempt to make Orochimaru's fight seem inferior as Ive guessed).


    Lets start with; "Sasuke is pretty much like Orochimaru"

    -Sasuke's goal > "I can't die until I kill Itachi" Itachi is dead.
    The he figured out how he failed after the conversation with Madara.
    Sasuke perhaps has switched his goal to "I can't die until I kill those responsible"

    This, gives Sasuke a never ending free ticket.
    I won't blame him. He IS one of the main characters.
    And hes presence in the manga is necessary.

    Lets take a look at Orochimaru:
    -Orochimaru goal > Figure out the truth about the world
    (By learning every jutsu in existence)

    Now you're logic;

    Quote Originally Posted by Advocat View Post
    Let's see:
    - Learned all the jutsu in the world? Failed.
    - Destroy Konoha? Failed.
    - Take over Itachi's body? Failed.
    - Take over Sauske's body? Failed.
    - Be immortal? Failed since he's dead.
    Hypocritical much?
    After claiming all that about my logic. Makes sense, yea.


    Orochimaru dedicated his very EXISTENCE in obtaining jutsu's.
    How will he fail if he never dies? He's existence will lead to his goal.
    Just being alive is achieving something for him. Why was he so relaxed
    when hes body got I'll. It was fully obvious Sasuke would betray him.
    How els would you explain his never fading smile? He want to obtain a power that most Uchiha took for granted. They wouldn't use it for it's maximum potential, which would be eventual greatness with learning all techniques known to Shinobi. Creating new ones. Understand Jutsu. Learn faster, get stronger. Leading to his ultimate goal. TO UNDERSTAND THE WORLD.

    The basic point. Orochimaru's goal is not really about power. It's existence.
    As long as he lives every second hes closer to his goal. That is why Kishi made his goal so big and far away. He was obsessed with the Sharingan because;
    1) It doesn't help to jump from every opportunity, thus he will stick to one thing until he obtains it. 2) It's more valuable jutsu. When he succeeds he will jump to another one. Someone like Orochimaru, was never handed anything. He seeked out the power he has. He figured out how to make Old Hokages fight for him. Someone like The First Hokage. A man who owned Uchiha Madara.

    Quote Originally Posted by Advocat View Post
    What is greatness, the attribute that you so profess to Orochimaru? How about using great power responsibly? What about his creations, what did Orochimaru contribute to the ninja world in his lifetime? You somehow manage to sidestep all these questions at every turn because your "logic" does not need reasons.
    Not only are you hypocritical, you're playing ignorant too...
    Spoiler!


    Greatest does not necessarily make the strongest. Orochimaru has done more then Sasuke will ever do in his life. Orochimaru's goal alone is 1000 more noble then Sasuke's.

    Quote Originally Posted by Advocat View Post
    I am always confused at your self-appointed "God of Logic" title when you absolutely refuse to use any whatsoever. You have stated no premises, no logical analysis, and simply make up a conclusion that suits your position.
    I figured I was preaching to a deaf audience, so I skipped it?
    I wish.. And the Irony is so huge here...

    Quote Originally Posted by Advocat View Post
    In fact, I would go far as to say your "logic" is nothing more than a cacophony of logical fallacies. For instance, your post asserts Minato as a failure as well as a plethora of others, but there is no reasoning. There never was. They are straw man arguements and ad hominem attacks, not a single line of reasoning to speak of.
    You're joking! Seriously not only did you miss the point of that post but you're
    playing fool. It's not amusing anymore....

    Quote Originally Posted by Advocat View Post
    Your only defense is that Oro was a genius, that he ordered a lot of people around, and that he created a lot of jutsu. Yet it is quite possible that these things are irrelevant in the discussion of success and failure - It is like stating that because the sky is blue, the grass must be green.
    Orochimaru was a genius, but his accomplishments are a footnote at best. He made a number of jutsu, but in the end it amounted to nothing. He wandered from group to group, even created his own country, but never came a step closer to understanding the world around him.
    What kind of philosopher does not think? What kind of builder does not build? What kind of leader does not lead? In my mind, there is no greater failure than such people, and this is the realm of Orochimaru; for he was a seeker of knowledge, who did not seek knowledge. Only strength. And no, they are not the same things.
    It's funny because you said this:

    Quote Originally Posted by Advocat View Post
    You have stated no premises, no logical analysis, and simply make up a conclusion that suits your position.
    I figured most of my post's were too much truth for you to acknowledge, you who lack any capability to see nuances and complexity... But lets skip the attempts in insulting me, and try focus on the basic point. Before I take you serious.

  4. #24
    I really tire of thread like these. Someone comes up with a nice summary and sums everything up and yet some over-achiever somewhere decides he could top the logic and quotes everyone from the beginning.

    I love the Jiraiya failure list though -- amusing, very amusing

  5. #25
    Senior Member kuroihikari's Avatar
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    The first step to success is creating a goal to strive for. Sasuke already failed at that. The goal he set for himself was a blind, immature, and unnecessary one. And just so it made some sense, he changed it midway. That's understandable because he was a kid when he made it. However, he still failed at growing up, realizing his mistake, and correcting it. I do, however, like his character, and I expect him to grow up sometime soon.

    Even though Orochimaru stumbled so many times, he stuck to his guns throughout the story.

  6. #26
    Lost in fathomed infinity Freakshow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kuroihikari View Post
    The first step to success is creating a goal to strive for. Sasuke already failed at that. The goal he set for himself was a blind, immature, and unnecessary one. And just so it made some sense, he changed it midway. That's understandable because he was a kid when he made it. However, he still failed at growing up, realizing his mistake, and correcting it. I do, however, like his character, and I expect him to grow up sometime soon.

    Even though Orochimaru stumbled so many times, he stuck to his guns throughout the story.
    Exactly this is what people seem to ignore and deny.
    Thank god not the whole audience is deaf...

  7. #27
    (ノ゜Д゜)ノ RedPan's Avatar
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    Everyone who's died up to this point is a failure.

    Madara/Kisame 08

    I don't want to compare Sasuke and Orochimaru, because Oro is taller and therefore Oro > Sasuke.

    Sasuke is short for a 16 year old, he's like 5'1". He's that young and he's going blind. Oro survived despite getting his arms sealed. It wasn't that much of a problem when he transfered bodies.

    Sasuke beat Orochimaru? I don't think so. Yeah, why destroy something you're trying to take? The best thing Sasuke did was put a lid on Oro's soul. But Oro did manage to transfer himself into Sasuke. The take over? Not so much. Sasuke and his diseased mind overwhelmed Oro in a plain that Sasuke had control over.

    Oro was able to "ressurrect" himself from Sasuke with the hydra. So that's just another fail for Sasuke. I think Kishi is going to surprise us when he brings Orochimaru back.

  8. #28
    Forgotten
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    My applause to Advocat, you did a great job. I share your point of view.

  9. #29
    Senior Member lazybum's Avatar
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    we should just stop this, kishi could just turn this around for sasuke by making it seem that he had other objectives, n as for the ongoing debate btw freakshow n advocate, i side with advocate

  10. #30
    Senior Member Advocat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hand Banana View Post
    Told ya.
    Of course. But you know what? I'm bored. TIME FOR ESSAY POST.



    Freakshow, you have once again demostrated a total lack of backing anything up. You have not defined success or failure as I implored, and you basically flamed me but refused to actually answer any of what I wrote by writing it off as either trivial or stupid.

    Perhaps I was not clear enough with my explanation of failure and success, which seemed to be so opaque that such ideas were impenetrable. I will attempt to clarify.



    Let's pretend that I have a goal to ride my bike over a hill. I proceed to ride said bike over said hill. Therefore my goal is completed. I think a fundamental difference in our thinking is that I believe that a success or failure can only occur when a goal is concieved (I should ride my bike tomorrow), and is only considered a success when that goal is achieved, (I either did or did not ride my bike). Thus, all goals are considered failed until they are achieved. For instance, I am a failure at being a doctor until I actually earn a doctorate. Also, a person can have many goals at the same time. For instance, every morning I set out to complete many goals: to shower, have breakfast, get dressed, go to school, etc. They are all considered failures until I actually accomplish them, such as failing to shower until I actually do so. If I never get around to it, it remains failed.

    We can say that every decision to do some sort of action is setting a goal, and that goal is considered failed until there is a following through of that action determines success.



    I know that this was rather long winded, but it is neccessary to understand these basic relationships between decisions and actions before we can put them into play. Now that we have the basics established, let's tackle some of what you brought up.

    Lets start with; "Sasuke is pretty much like Orochimaru"

    -Sasuke's goal > "I can't die until I kill Itachi" Itachi is dead.
    The he figured out how he failed after the conversation with Madara.
    Sasuke perhaps has switched his goal to "I can't die until I kill those responsible"

    This, gives Sasuke a never ending free ticket.
    I won't blame him. He IS one of the main characters.
    And hes presence in the manga is necessary.

    Lets take a look at Orochimaru:
    -Orochimaru goal > Figure out the truth about the world
    (By learning every jutsu in existence)
    They are similar, and I listed their similarities which you write off. Of course they have different goals, but the point was that they have both done many of the same things, including fighting their own comrades.

    I am confused how Sauske "failed." His goal was to kill Itachi. He completed that goal. As we have seen, that is the very definition of success. If he regretted it afterwards, thats a different story, but it is not considered a "failure." Regret does not invalidate past actions or goals. I fail to see this whole "free ticket" idea and you don't really explain why you say that.

    Now let's look at Orochimaru. His goal was to "figure out the truth about the world" by learning every jutsu. A simple question: did he? Well, no. I am sure you're going to contend that this is because that final action is never going to be completed until A) success - he DOES learn every jutsu and completes his goal, or B) failure - he is unable to learn every jutsu because of being incapacated (dead, trapped somewhere, chakra veins destroyed) or some other reason such as not being able to use certain chakra elements, kekki genkai, etc.

    As we will later see, you will state that because he's immortal, and there are no known restrictions to his chakra use, option B is rendered impossible therefore option A is inevitable. But one step at a time.

    Hypocritical much?
    After claiming all that about my logic. Makes sense, yea.
    I do not understand where you think I'm being hypocritical here. He hasn't learned every jutsu in the world and he hasn't achieved immortality. I wish you would have elaborated on why this is hypocrisy, but once again you just sort of made a judgement and didn't really say why.

    Orochimaru dedicated his very EXISTENCE in obtaining jutsu's.
    How will he fail if he never dies? He's existence will lead to his goal.
    Just being alive is achieving something for him. Why was he so relaxed
    when hes body got I'll. It was fully obvious Sasuke would betray him.
    How els would you explain his never fading smile? He want to obtain a power that most Uchiha took for granted. They wouldn't use it for it's maximum potential, which would be eventual greatness with learning all techniques known to Shinobi. Creating new ones. Understand Jutsu. Learn faster, get stronger. Leading to his ultimate goal. TO UNDERSTAND THE WORLD.

    The basic point. Orochimaru's goal is not really about power. It's existence.
    As long as he lives every second hes closer to his goal. That is why Kishi made his goal so big and far away. He was obsessed with the Sharingan because;
    1) It doesn't help to jump from every opportunity, thus he will stick to one thing until he obtains it. 2) It's more valuable jutsu. When he succeeds he will jump to another one. Someone like Orochimaru, was never handed anything. He seeked out the power he has. He figured out how to make Old Hokages fight for him. Someone like The First Hokage. A man who owned Uchiha Madara.
    Let's first get one thing straight, Orochimaru wanted the sharingan because it has the ability to teach the user jutsu by just looking at it once. It's how Kakashi knows 1000 techniques. If you're going to make your goal to learn every jutsu, having the sharingan is pretty invaluble.

    That said, I think you make a good point by saying that through immortality and existence, Oro will eventually understand everything this world has to offer. I can argue that with enough time, anyone whose immortal will eventually understand everything in this world. I can probably also argue that if I gave you an infinite amount of time, you would still not learn the totality of existence, but thats a whole other ball game.

    If Orochimaru's goal is existence then, has he achieved it? I would say no, mainly because from every single perspective he is quite dead. Remember that whole Option B failure bit? Right. Well, Unless you count the whole Kabuto/Orochimaru thing, which I wont. There's no proof that Orochimaru is sentient and alive, and until there is he will remain quite dead. Thats how logic works, nothing is true until it is proven to be true.

    Evevn then, Orochimaru will remain failed until he succeeds, which may take an eternity.


    Not only are you hypocritical, you're playing ignorant too...


    Greatest does not necessarily make the strongest. Orochimaru has done more then Sasuke will ever do in his life. Orochimaru's goal alone is 1000 more noble then Sasuke's.
    That list of the many jutsu Oro invented does not address any of the questions I asked. I was not asking how many jutsu he learned, but rather asking about the use of those jutsu, for what ends, and what purpose. Although maybe I'm mistaken here since Oro was a purely selfish individual who discarded everything for his goal, and so it fits his version of success but not neccessarily ours.

    I'm confused by the latter part here, you say Oro has done more than Sauske will ever do, which logically makes no sense since you can't know what Sauske will do, but you've also neglected to actually say what it is he's actually done. And just because you think Oro's goal is noble doesn't make it any closer to successful.


    I find it hilarious that you end with me "just badmouthing you" but for many essential points that you quote from this point onward you simply call me stupid but don't actually say why or explain yourself. Like "the Irony is so huge" but there's absolutely nothing ironic there and you don't back up what you say. Some logician.



    Originally Posted by kuroihikari
    The first step to success is creating a goal to strive for. Sasuke already failed at that. The goal he set for himself was a blind, immature, and unnecessary one. And just so it made some sense, he changed it midway. That's understandable because he was a kid when he made it. However, he still failed at growing up, realizing his mistake, and correcting it. I do, however, like his character, and I expect him to grow up sometime soon.

    Even though Orochimaru stumbled so many times, he stuck to his guns throughout the story.
    Exactly this is what people seem to ignore and deny.
    Thank god not the whole audience is deaf...
    This is ridiculous to agree with for a few reasons. You're right in that the first step is to create a goal. Which he did. Where is the failure? Just because you don't agree with it doesn't invalidate it and make it any less of a goal. Then you end by saying he failed to grow up, which has nothing to do with setting a goal or achieving it. Naruto never grew up, but he has still succeeded in many things.

    And just because Orochimaru is stubborn doesn't mean he accomplished any goals. If I push on a mountain in the hopes of moving it across a country, being determined won't make that goal a reality. It helps, but it is by no means the final say.
    Last edited by Advocat; 10-09-2008 at 09:41 AM.

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