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  1. #1
    Senior Member paulbee's Avatar
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    Is Soul society really necessary?

    The Quincy Rebelion/War/ Whatever you think of it, raises a Larger question:

    IS Soul Society really Necessary?

    Can the Universe continue to operate and self regulate just fine without the help or interference of SS and the Shinigami? I get that the Human world may need protection from Hollows every now and then, but what if there were other means to do that without Shinigamis and/or Soul Society?

    How old is Soul Society, and how did the Universe operate before them?
    Just what is the Soul King, and what is his role if any, in the Grand Scheme of things?

    Will the Universe come to a Crash if Juha Bach annihilate Soul Society or the Hollows? In other words, could it be that Shinigami have inflated their own importance, and might it be that the Universe would get along just fine without them? As we have seen, Shinigamis may become very powerful beings and live very long lives, (like Yamamoto Genrusai), but in the end they also age, fall ill from disease, and die just like everyone else, In these sense they are not really Gods.

    Should Ichigo re-evaluate his affiliation to Shinigamis, and take the role of peace maker/broker, instead of being purely a defender of Soul Society. If he's a Shinigami because his father is one, he is also a Quincy from his mother, and he has hollow and Quincy friends and comrades. Is the Shinigami-centric role really a meaningful role for Ichigo?

    Will Kubo even address these issues? Has he even thought about how to resolve these sort of fundamental questions? LOL?

    What are your thoughts on these?



    EDIT:

    Thanks to DonMegaPLP: I realise I have used the Term Soul Society as synonymous with Seireitei. I guess the word "Society" threw me off.

    So the question I meant to ask was:

    Is SEIREITEI Necessary?
    Last edited by paulbee; 11-20-2012 at 11:23 PM.

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  2. #2
    Senior Member Zero's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paulbee View Post
    The Quincy Rebelion/War/ Whatever you think of it, raises a Larger question:

    IS Soul Society really Necessary?

    Can the Universe continue to operate and self regulate just fine without the help or interference of SS and the Shinigami? I get that the Human world may need protection from Hollows every now and then, but what if there were other means to do that without Shinigamis and/or Soul Society?

    How old is Soul Society, and how did the Universe operate before them?
    Just what is the Soul King, and what is his role if any, in the Grand Scheme of things?

    Will the Universe come to a Crash if Juha Bach annihilate Soul Society or the Hollows? In other words, could it be that Shinigami have inflated their own importance, and might it be that the Universe would get along just fine without them? As we have seen, Shinigamis may become very powerful beings and live very long lives, (like Yamamoto Genrusai), but in the end they also age, fall ill from disease, and die just like everyone else, In these sense they are not really Gods.

    Should Ichigo re-evaluate his affiliation to Shinigamis, and take the role of peace maker/broker, instead of being purely a defender of Soul Society. If he's a Shinigami because his father is one, he is also a Quincy from his mother, and he has hollow and Quincy friends and comrades. Is the Shinigami-centric role really a meaningful role for Ichigo?

    Will Kubo even address these issues? Has he even thought about how to resolve these sort of fundamental questions? LOL?

    What are your thoughts on these?
    First, this:
    Spoiler!

    Now we have to wonder, from which point of view, it was counted from (the time flows faster on one side, I don't remember on which it was ), or perhaps it just means that Shinigami existed before humans. Perhaps, there were no humans, only Hollows and thus the SK created Shinigami from Hollows, to make them cleanse Hollows and make them later into Humans ?

    Urahara called the SK a linchpin. Without he/she/it, both worlds (SS and HR) would crumble. SK supposedly created the Shinigami, in order to preserve that balance.

    Hollows appear not only within HR, but there are really tons of them within HM and they also appear in SS. Without Shinigami, they would be indiscriminatingly eating all souls within those 3 realms, if it wasn't for Shinigami (and some Humans within HR, but since a method for Humans to freely travel between those dimensions is relatively new, there was no other way but to create Shinigami in the end). They would eat as much as they want and thus the balance would easily crumble, without someone watching over it.

    If we take the notion of SS - spiritual realm connected to thy physical realm - HR, then this would mean that since HM is a spiritual realm, the SKR must be a physical realm then, assuming that they are connected (it's seems that HM and SKR do not affect the balance between SS & HR). Then there is Hell Realm and the Quincy Realm... although the last one might be somewhere in HM.



  3. #3
    Senior Member paulbee's Avatar
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    Quite right in that One Million years ago there were no Humans. Also since Hollows are supposed to be degraded human Souls, there should not have been any hollows either. Perhaps the original Shinigami were spiritual beings that existed since the universe began?

    As to the ballance of souls, who knows whether the dogma being put forth by the Shinigami is in fact true. IOTW How does anyone know what would happen if all hollows were destroyed (The Quincy ideal), if it has never happened before, but if it has happened before with a disastrous consequence, then HM and SS would have been destroyed. This is Chicken or the egg instance (which came first?).

    If it is infact confirmed that destruction of Hollows would cause the Worlds/Realms to crash and annihilate each other, then the Quincies are really stupid and deserve to be stopped. However, having seen/met Juha Bach, he doesn't strike me as a Suicidal Maniac bent on annihilating the universe, this makes me wonder whether he does have a righteous grievance against SS.

    About the SK. He strikes me as a wise and peaceful entity. It seems to me that he left SS and isolated himself as a result of disapproval of Shinigami Tactics and actions. You might say that since he is the SK he should have been able to control the Shinigamis, but remember that this is a Japanese Manga, and the Sk could have been modelled after the Japanese Emperor who has little Military power himself, but completely on the Shogun. It is my understanding that the Emperor of Japan has always been a Spiritual Leader and a respected and beloved figure head, rather than a military or political leader. I think the SK is the same way. If this is true, the Sk could have left this dimension because he could not accept how his Shinigamis were managing the worlds, making me wonder whether the Shinigamis are not putting a false spin on things in order to justify their own power and militarism.

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  4. #4
    If something has a beginning, then it must have an end, otherwise there would be no way to classify its beginning. Now with that said, I dont think the SK is a person or a title held by a person. I think it is a Rule. Like an idea or a mechanism that by which the the Trinity abides by. The Trinity being the Quincy, Shinigami and Hollow. Humans would be in the middle of that triangle, as the base ingredient of all species or groups. IMO Aizen wanted to topple that Rule, to cause chaos because he was no longer able to live within the illusion that the Rule is infallible and eternal. It seemed like his ability of Complete Hypnosis is what allowed him to see the truth of the SK. Hat n Clogs was also aware of this, but due to his insatiable appetite for knowledge and pursuit of the truth.
    Each group in turn (Q/S/H) adopted their beliefs based on what they received from the Rule. Quincy's believe Hollows must be exterminated to preserve Humanity. Shinigami think its more noble to "save" Hollows, while Hollows... well I dont really understand their motivation, they aren't all base line creatures, and some are quite powerful, if only to resist the Q & S... Another victim of cause and effect perhaps...
    My theory gives a more theological perspective to Bleach, but I think that the more "devout" or original followers within each group probably move based on some sort of belief in such a entity as the SK. So while I can't say whether or not its "The End" if all Hollows are destroyed, it is for sure what the Shinigami believe, or are at least taught. We haven't really been given the Quincy side of the story, other than the thru the eyes of an old teacher no doubt saddened and weary of fighting the shinigami, eager to accept their philosophy to preserve his people and/or sanity...

  5. #5
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    Just a thought. SS and the HUman realm are identical, but opposite. HM and Hell are both neutral. look at this picture:

    8062427-compass-chart.jpg

    SS would be north.


    HM would be west.
    Soul King realm is linchpin
    HELL would be east.


    HU would be south.

    Right now all the pure souls are either in SS or HUman realm.
    Impure souls are in either HM or Hell.

    Only pure souls have weight.

    Right now all the power is in SS so all the souls "fall" into that realm at death.
    What if the HUmans(Quincy) attained more power than the shinigami?
    What if that made the power shift and when you died in SS, your soul would "fall" into the HUman realm?

    The Soul King realm is in the middle and is the fulcrum point for "existence" (linchpin). Everything hinges on it.

    The intermediate points could be sub realms.
    Dangai for example
    Kyōgoku from bleach movie
    Possibly everyone's "inner dimension" is a fragment of another
    and the shadow realm where the quincies run off to.

    Anywho, the current plot would be that the Quincy are trying to topple SS so that Human Quincies would be the new "gods" and Juha bach knows that the hollows dont effect the balance. He just wants to destroy the opposition, kill the hollows, and gain eternal peace.

  6. #6
    The End All DonMegaPLP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paulbee View Post
    The Quincy Rebelion/War/ Whatever you think of it, raises a Larger question:

    IS Soul Society really Necessary?

    Can the Universe continue to operate and self regulate just fine without the help or interference of SS and the Shinigami? I get that the Human world may need protection from Hollows every now and then, but what if there were other means to do that without Shinigamis and/or Soul Society?

    How old is Soul Society, and how did the Universe operate before them?
    Just what is the Soul King, and what is his role if any, in the Grand Scheme of things?

    Will the Universe come to a Crash if Juha Bach annihilate Soul Society or the Hollows? In other words, could it be that Shinigami have inflated their own importance, and might it be that the Universe would get along just fine without them? As we have seen, Shinigamis may become very powerful beings and live very long lives, (like Yamamoto Genrusai), but in the end they also age, fall ill from disease, and die just like everyone else, In these sense they are not really Gods.

    Should Ichigo re-evaluate his affiliation to Shinigamis, and take the role of peace maker/broker, instead of being purely a defender of Soul Society. If he's a Shinigami because his father is one, he is also a Quincy from his mother, and he has hollow and Quincy friends and comrades. Is the Shinigami-centric role really a meaningful role for Ichigo?

    Will Kubo even address these issues? Has he even thought about how to resolve these sort of fundamental questions? LOL?

    What are your thoughts on these?
    Is Soul Society necessary? Of course it is, souls need a place to go while they mature and jouney back to the Human Realm or are attacked and become Hollows, seeing as they happens in SS also. What should be the question is "is the seireitei really necessary?". The Shinigami are indeed so, them or something that does the job. They are incharge of protecting the SS and the human world from hollows, also purifying those hollows into normal souls that can pass into soul soceity and rejoin the cycle to reborn on Earth.

    The seireitei however, is the Shinigami stronghold. It exist to organize the shinigami forces. Now THAT may not be needed (at least not in it's current form). But if there are going to be these outstandingly powerful spirit-beings freely moving between Earth and other realms, there needs to be a checks/ balance system (even Hollows organized as they ascended in power). An authority to keep everything in check. THAT is the seireitei's function. We've seen not all shinigami are benevolent beings. All lot of them are downright bad (the word "evil" could be used), though they dont seem to think what they do is "wrong" in the general sense of the word. They have their reasonings and justifications, but again, thats why the shinigami need something to answer to. So as long as shinigami exist in the numbers they do, there will need to be some sort of ruling organization, whether it be named seireitei or otherwise. Soul Soceity did not attack the Quincey or wage war on Hueco Mundo, it was an order that came from the Seireiti, a place that houses the Thirteen Court Divisions. An organization thats ultimately responsible for anything done in Soul Soceity's name.
    Last edited by DonMegaPLP; 11-20-2012 at 10:36 PM.

  7. #7
    Senior Member paulbee's Avatar
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    Thanks DonMegaPLP for pointing out an obvious error in my Theme Question.




    Quote Originally Posted by DonMegaPLP View Post
    Is Soul Society necessary? Of course it is, souls need a place to go while they mature and jouney back to the Human Realm or are attacked and become Hollows, seeing as they happens in SS also. What should be the question is "is the seireitei really necessary?". The Shinigami are indeed so, them or something that does the job. They are incharge of protecting the SS and the human world from hollows, also purifying those hollows into normal souls that can pass into soul soceity and rejoin the cycle to reborn on Earth.

    The seireitei however, is the Shinigami stronghold. It exist to organize the shinigami forces. Now THAT may not be needed (at least not in it's current form). But if there are going to be these outstandingly powerful spirit-beings freely moving between Earth and other realms, there needs to be a checks/ balance system (even Hollows organized as they ascended in power). An authority to keep everything in check. THAT is the seireitei's function. We've seen not all shinigami are benevolent beings. All lot of them are downright bad (the word "evil" could be used), though they dont seem to think what they do is "wrong" in the general sense of the word. They have their reasonings and justifications, but again, thats why the shinigami need something to answer to. So as long as shinigami exist in the numbers they do, there will need to be some sort of ruling organization, whether it be named seireitei or otherwise. Soul Soceity did not attack the Quincey or wage war on Hueco Mundo, it was an order that came from the Seireiti, a place that houses the Thirteen Court Divisions. An organization thats ultimately responsible for anything done in Soul Soceity's name.
    I'd always taken Soul Society as Synonymous with Seireitei, as opposed to Rukongai. I could be wrong though. My intent was to ask whether the rule of Shinigami in Seireitei was neccessary.

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  8. #8
    Mind f*cked beyond repair Stev3child's Avatar
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    I've always thought that Aizen's goals represented the opposite of the will of the soul king's(and thus seireitei's). Aizen wants to be free from limits, boundaries, role and does this in direct defiance of the soul king(as evidenced in his dialogue to Urahara) which makes me think that the Soul King established and governs these laws specifically. Though it seems Ichigo being human, and actually achieving the kind of power that was superior to Aizen's hogyoku state, would indicate that ironically, Aizen's method's to achieving this really should become more like Ichigo(human) lol. I think his defiance to the soul king is relevant to your question Paul.

    Imagine that the universe is governed by a force who's purpose is to separate, and predetermine the nature all beings that come into existence. This force prevents ambitions of change and evolution, and pretty much basic free will. It only wants a particular order to be imposed. That means the conflicts that exist like the one between hollow and shinigami, were designed to exist in them in the first place. Being aware of the unfairness of this might lead someone like Aizen to rebel against such a system or aim to escape it's boundaries. Ichigo's mere existence right now seems to be a statement of direct defiance, more profound than Aizen's, against that oppressive system. The way I see it, Ichigo is slowly changing the nature of the relationship between shinigami, hollow and humans and his power and allies from all sides is a symbol of that.

    The Soul King ensures that the conflict between all of these different beings continues due to how it governs the nature of these beings. The solution to a Hollow's need to survive is to feast upon the souls of humans. The solution to a human's need to survive and preserve their own short existence is to eliminate hollows. The solution to keeping the shinigami's dimension intact is to preserve some vague balance of souls by ensuring that enough humans die in order for it to populate all planes of existences and also prevent humans from independently protecting themselves . You see, all of these solutions are to problems that exist because of some core fundamental design "flaw". These "solutions" also cause further problems and perpetuate the cycle. The actual solution to this problem is to challenge the cause directly, and the cause seems to be the rules of nature imposed by the soul king. A method of opposing this that seems to be effective, is simply sharing each other's stregnth to grow and overcome nature's oppression. Something Ichigo is already doing on his quest to protect his friends from the universe that seems to be designed to itself. I say that the soul king is not needed once the limits that it imposes on the universe is surpassed.

    Though this leads me to my question: what does the soul king gain from a system like this?
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  9. #9
    Senior Member paulbee's Avatar
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    Steve, as I recall it is by no means certain that the Soul King created or even supports the current order. I seem to recall that he abdicated his political powers as Soul King and left the Governance of the worlds to Seireitei's Gotei 13 and Room 46.

    I also seem to recall that one of Aizen's claims or gripes is that No One was in charge of the Universe, so he (Aizen) would himself take charge of things. I seem to read that as saying that the refusal of the soul king to guide the eveolution of the Universe was intollerable to Aizen, so Aizen decided that he would do the job.

    Ichigo's actions and existence has begun to change the status quo, and Seireitei is accepting those changes, while the Soul King who has adopted a hands off stance hasn't opposed them.

    My question is whether there is need for a Gotei 13 at all, or whether the Universe would find its own ballance somehow, without their interference. Humans such as Quincies can protect humanity from hollows as need be, except if there is an over indulgence in slaying hollows, or too many hollows were entering the human realm to feast on too many souls.

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  10. #10
    Mind f*cked beyond repair Stev3child's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paulbee View Post
    Steve, as I recall it is by no means certain that the Soul King created or even supports the current order. I seem to recall that he abdicated his political powers as Soul King and left the Governance of the worlds to Seireitei's Gotei 13 and Room 46.
    Of course. My post is speculative and theoretical. But
    Spoiler!

    seems to suggest that the Spirit King imposes order of some kind based on what Aizen said there.

    Quote Originally Posted by paulbee View Post
    I also seem to recall that one of Aizen's claims or gripes is that No One was in charge of the Universe, so he (Aizen) would himself take charge of things. I seem to read that as saying that the refusal of the soul king to guide the eveolution of the Universe was intollerable to Aizen, so Aizen decided that he would do the job.
    My theory and Aizen's statements don't contradict each other if we treat the Spirit King as a non living being without a conscious which is a possible reason Aizen referred to it as a "thing". The spirit king, if treated as a non-living natural entity where nature's rules come from or is governed by, can still mean that no one is in charge. As in a living being.

    I guess I did personify a lot of what I think the Spirit King did in my post so I'm sorry for that.

    Quote Originally Posted by paulbee View Post
    My question is whether there is need for a Gotei 13 at all, or whether the Universe would find its own ballance somehow, without their interference. Humans such as Quincies can protect humanity from hollows as need be, except if there is an over indulgence in slaying hollows, or too many hollows were entering the human realm to feast on too many souls.
    If I'm right about what the spirit King does, then I believe that the Gotei 13 must exist as their role of spirit-balancers and cannot deviate from that role or face extinction.
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