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  1. #51
    Appearance of Darkness Aga bomBa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paulbee View Post
    Madara must be extremely Lucky that Obito came along, at the least.

    Exactly.. that's what I mean.

    - IF Madara needed an Uchiha body for carying out his Master Plan, then why wait all these time? It's not like Obito was a high-class shinobi like Itachi, Sasuke or even Shisui. All these time, he could've send Zetzu for kidnapping a 12-13 year old Uchiha and start his plan already.

    All these together sums it all up; Tobi's reveal/reasons for EMP and Madara's future plan isn't all planned out very well, too be honest. In Tobi's case; creating such a world for a girl that probably didn't even loved him like he loved her.. too easy. And Madara finding an Uchiha body near his hide-out is a little bit lame IMO.

    - WHAT IF, Obito ( some random uchiha ) didn't died there.. then what? Madara would've probably created Black Zetzu anyway, but still, Zetzu isn't S-class for convincing or taking on S-class shinobi like's the Akatsuki's members and especially not suited for winning the trust of Nagato, Konan and Yahiko. Madara needed an Uchiha body for executing his plan, an Uchiha capable of handling senju powers for gettin control over Mazou; ain't it little bit too easy for having an young Uchiha die above your hide-out.. JUST when you need it for your Master Plan??

    So far, destiny is a big key word in Naruto Manga.. you could say that " Obito " was destined to die above " Madara's hideout ", but comparing this scenario with all the others, it's just to easy and un-satisfying if you ask me.

    And Paul.. even if he caught an Uchiha who didn't wanted to give up life/ the world as it is, Madara would still be able to brainwash that person for accepting his vision of life. Madara has the right knowledge and lots of experience, if it comes to manipulation. This Obito - Madara connection could be left out.. I still prefer Obito simple dying by saving his friends.
    ... You're Dead 2 Me Now ...

  2. #52
    [̲̅ə̲̅٨̲̅٥̲̅٦̲̅] guy's Avatar
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    I'd like to think darker and say that Madara did not manipulate Obito in the Rin/Kakashi situation at least. He knew that something would go wrong..he knew with absolute conviction that something always goes wrong.

    A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools.

  3. #53
    Senior Member knife eater's Avatar
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    Tsubasa

    It's anybody's bet if obito arrived in madara's lair by pure chance or by madara's molding of events and realities. I think madara had obito incorporated into his plan probably before obito was born.

    For the sake of arguments, let's say obito didn't shottw up and wasn't yet a consideration of madara. What then? Would he rely solely on nagato, who is entirely oblivious to the true origin of his rinnegan and hopelessly ignorant of the motivations and movements that shape the events he was meant to overcome. How indeed would madara cash in with nagato and how awkward the approach would be. It begs the question, why give nagato the rinnegan at all if madara can feed on the mazou with it's hashirama augmentation? Surely the mazou could afford madara at least one ultimate technique to restore himself. After that he can continue anew with a handful of zetsu.

    I think that if madara was relying on only nagato and obito did not happen then madara, with his unique relationship and command of the gedou mazou... once nagato calls upon the statue and syncs with it, madara might have the ability to control nagato through the statue. The mazou has been shown to have capability of housing madara's will. That will could possibly overcome nagato 's,thereby allowing madara to use him as subdued proxy and indirectly activate the rinnegan powers he needs. Madara could have used the eye which is,now missing from his right socket to cast uchiha techniques on nagato when just a child, mainly izanami. This would ensure nagato will eventually perform within the destiny created for him by madara. Of course, madara would have had to take his rinnegan out and replace with sharingan before meeting nagato.

    Nope, it's more sensible to believe obito was an intentional component in madara's plan and their meeting was premeditated, possibly even the rock ninjas were a premeditated measure as well. Everyone now seems like a puppet but destiny and time can be understood as resources to be tapped into and altered by the likes of madara. He warped everyone's destiny to suit his goals and exercised his skills of seeing what the future holds.
    _____
    Obito is Tobirama's great grandson. The proof is in the pudding.

  4. #54
    Senior Member paulbee's Avatar
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    In my analysis above I'd like to note that I said that Madara probably needed an Uchiha on accoount of Obito pretending to be Madara, and being able to use Uchiha Jutsus and inyouton.

    Even if Madara did not specifically need an Uchiha as hid Proxy, his plan was still very risky, and Obito dropping in his lap was Extremely lucky to say the least.

    I am not perfect and I defy you to prove otherwise
    Growing Old Gracefully is an Oxymoron ... Mostly Moron !

  5. #55
    Senior Member Jean-Marie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paulbee View Post
    So Madara had to find a Proxy who was willing to go along with his plan, was able to use Mokuton/control Geddou Mazou, and who was able skillfully guide and use Nagato to bring Madara back from the dead.

    Obito was the right Candidate because he could be persuaded to give up on Life/The world as it is, and accept Madara's Vision. He lost Half his body and thus had a massive amount of Hashirama's cells in him. As an Uchiha, he could pretend to be madara and he could use the Uchiha Kinjutsu and Inyouton.

    Madara must be extremely Lucky that Obito came along, at the least.
    Still, Zetsu clearly called Obito the chosen one (by Madara). Which is in contradiction with your theory that Obito ended up there by chance.

  6. #56
    Senior Member paulbee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jean-Marie View Post
    Still, Zetsu clearly called Obito the chosen one (by Madara). Which is in contradiction with your theory that Obito ended up there by chance.
    Yes, and No. I am not really theorizing that Obito got there by chance, that was Madara's story as he explained/told it to Obito. I am saying sarcastically that Madara's comment that Obito Slipped into one of his tunnels requires Exreme Luck for it to be true, which is why I used the words "at the least".

    Kishimoto has not really given us a very satisfying nor convincing explanation of the Tobi = Obito circumstances. This is rather sad, given the outstanding quality of his story telling up to this point.

    I am not perfect and I defy you to prove otherwise
    Growing Old Gracefully is an Oxymoron ... Mostly Moron !

  7. #57
    Yesss... Rlinfamous's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paulbee View Post
    Yes, and No. I am not really theorizing that Obito got there by chance, that was Madara's story as he explained/told it to Obito. I am saying sarcastically that Madara's comment that Obito Slipped into one of his tunnels requires Exreme Luck for it to be true, which is why I used the words "at the least".

    Kishimoto has not really given us a very satisfying nor convincing explanation of the Tobi = Obito circumstances. This is rather sad, given the outstanding quality of his story telling up to this point.
    I agree, the flashbacks all pointed to the conclusion that Madara planned for Obito's arrival and Rin's death. Both scenarios seem quite blatantly arranged by Madara; Zetsu looked all too shady when he was telling Obito to trust Spiral Zetsu, and the words "I can see why Madara chose you" seem to imply more than "I can see why Madara trusted you"; to me, they suggest "I can see why Madara selected you."

    There are two ways Obito could have "slipped" through the ground to Madara. One is that he awakened his Mangekyou while under the boulder, and phased through the earth. I don't like this, because it seems more logical/appropriate that Obito awakened his Mangekyou upon seeing Rin's death. That leaves the second option, that Obito was brought before Madara by Zetsu (who either set things up so Obito would be in critical condition / capturable, or otherwise noticed Obito). Who knows, maybe Madara had Zetsu all over the countryside watching the battles in the war for a chance to seize a vulnerable Uchiha; I'd rather believe he set up Obito.
    Last edited by Rlinfamous; 10-30-2012 at 06:30 PM.

  8. #58
    Senior Member Jean-Marie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paulbee View Post
    Kishimoto has not really given us a very satisfying nor convincing explanation of the Tobi = Obito circumstances. This is rather sad, given the outstanding quality of his story telling up to this point.
    Kishi never stated that he will explain all and now.
    I know for sure there will be in due time more flashbacks showing:
    - how Madara pretended to be defeated against the 1st Hokage.
    - How Madara gave the rinnegan to Nagato
    - What Rin had so special
    - And then the complement of information about how Obito was used (with possibly how the whole crash under the boulder and the death of Rin were staged)
    The explanation is not poor. It is on purpose not complete. The whole explanation will sure come. I'm convinced we just have to wait.

  9. #59
    Yesss... Rlinfamous's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jean-Marie View Post
    Kishi never stated that he will explain all and now.
    I know for sure there will be in due time more flashbacks showing:
    - how Madara pretended to be defeated against the 1st Hokage.
    - How Madara gave the rinnegan to Nagato
    - What Rin had so special
    - And then the complement of information about how Obito was used (with possibly how the whole crash under the boulder and the death of Rin were staged)
    The explanation is not poor. It is on purpose not complete. The whole explanation will sure come. I'm convinced we just have to wait.
    I agree with this. Odds are we'll get some more info from Kakashi in upcoming chapters, which might change Obito's mind about a few things (like following Madara). However, even if Obito hates Madara, he may still be dedicated to Madara's vision of a Dream World, with himself as the caster rather than Madara. That would fit with what we've seen so far, that Obito was ready to move ahead with the plan without Madara. Of course, Madara DID teach Obito how to perform the jutsu, so perhaps he's actually okay with not being the caster (I find this hard to believe, too!). Basically, it's POSSIBLE Obito would still go with the plan even if he knew he was being used, and it's POSSIBLE that Madara would be okay with this, and actually doesn't feel he NEEDS to be the caster of the Moon's Eye so long as it IS casted.

    The only way to turn Obito against the Moon's Eye Plan, rather than simply against Madara, is to convince him that the world is not so worthless/evil after all. Essentially, he needs a convincing reason why Kakashi was forced to kill Rin, or why all his unfortunate circumstances were not a result of fate or some horrible imbalance, but merely a product of Madara's scheming. He needs something that will change his entire "cause->effect=misery" worldview. Maybe the Naruto/Kakashi combo will help Obito remember who he was, what his dreams were, his bond with Minato Sensei, etc.

  10. #60
    Que gatito mas leeendo!!! hikonami's Avatar
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    I dont believe obito is going to change sides anytime soon. i think he and kakashi need their time to be, their time to fight...i think they're not going to fight at the moment because kakashi is pretty much done. a full capacity kakashi vs obito might be on the way. maybe there he can at least explain what happened with rin and they can both discover everything was madara's scheme....
    Miau, Miau, Miau.....prrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!!!!!!!!!!

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