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  1. #81
    Senior Member Jean-Marie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bjnpav View Post
    Aren't theese the Akatsuki clouds
    Sorry, no way. Much too different.
    Akatsuki.jpg

  2. #82
    Yesss... Rlinfamous's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dumprep101 View Post
    I might be wrong.. but for some reason Uzumaki clan was swept because i think someone knows Uzumaki are capable of using Rinnegan and the 10tails bijuu..

    which means Uzumaki = Senju + Uchiha because controlling the Gedo Mazou requires Senju + Uchiha bloodline..
    No, the way it works is that Madara gave Nagato the Rinnegan (which although requiring Senju Cells to activate, actually gave Nagato the Uchiha Bloodline, namely Sharingan/Doujutsu). Nagato's own body, which is of the Senju Bloodline (Uzumaki), enables him to both use the Rinnegan and control the Gedo Mazou.

    Sasuke could not awaken the Rinnegan without being given necessary Senju powers. And if he was given the Rinnegan that someone else activated, he still could not control the Mazou, because he would still lack Senju powers.

    Basically, Uchiha Bloodline = Yin Eyes (Sharingan), Senju/Uzumaki Bloodline = Yang Body (Which Nagato/Hashirama had), and perhaps counter-intuitively both these powers are required to unlock the strongest eyes, the Yin/Yang Rinnegan, and to use those eyes to control the Gedo Mazou. I don't usually use the term "Yin Eyes" or "Yang Body", but that's basically the best way of describing the two halves of the Rikudou/Rinnegan bloodline, and once one understands that the Rinnegan and its powers represent Yin/Yang, it becomes more understandable why the Elder Brother's lineage, who was born with the Sage's "Eyes", nonetheless cannot achieve the full power of the Rinnegan. Because the Rikudou's true power is completely based on the Rinnegan (aside from sealing the Juubi within himself), the fact that the Sage's Body is necessary to unlock/wield the Rinnegan helps bring the Younger Brother's lineage on par with the Elder's.

  3. #83
    Senior Member paulbee's Avatar
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    Famous, Are you saying that if Itachi or Sasuke were given the Rinnegan, they would be unable to use some of its abilities like the Rinnegan Izanagi?

    Granted that the elder brother's line lacked the Yang energies neccessary to activate the Rinnegan, but Once activated, the Rinnegan itself is both Yin and Yang. My thinking is that an Uchiha with the Rinnegan could control the Mazou (MAZOU = JUUBI's Body) They May run out of life energy and dry up like a prune, in the process.

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  4. #84
    Senior Member Jean-Marie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rlinfamous View Post
    Basically, Uchiha Bloodline = Yin Eyes (Sharingan), Senju/Uzumaki Bloodline = Yang Body (Which Nagato/Hashirama had), and perhaps counter-intuitively both these powers are required to unlock the strongest eyes, the Yin/Yang Rinnegan, and to use those eyes to control the Gedo Mazou. I don't usually use the term "Yin Eyes" or "Yang Body", but that's basically the best way of describing the two halves of the Rikudou/Rinnegan bloodline, and once one understands that the Rinnegan and its powers represent Yin/Yang, it becomes more understandable why the Elder Brother's lineage, who was born with the Sage's "Eyes", nonetheless cannot achieve the full power of the Rinnegan. Because the Rikudou's true power is completely based on the Rinnegan (aside from sealing the Juubi within himself), the fact that the Sage's Body is necessary to unlock/wield the Rinnegan helps bring the Younger Brother's lineage on par with the Elder's.
    Rinnegan = yin + yang? I don't think so. Firstly this was never mentioned. But most importantly the rinnegan was said to be the 3rd path. And thirdly the so6p power is not the rinnegan only: he has 6 paths. And the actual rinnegan owners are far under the so6p: Nagato died twice. Tobi doesn't manage to capture his 2 beasts. Old Madara with rinnegan survives only thanks to the gedo and his life is hell.
    I wonder if after the rinnegan (3rd path) there are still 3 more paths to go to achieve the rikudou level. Up to now we still don't know what are the 6 paths of the so6p. But we saw him with the rinnegan + he gave the eye power to one son + he gave his body power to the other one. SO, 3 known paths, and 3 more to discover?

  5. #85
    Senior Member paulbee's Avatar
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    But Jean Marie, we do know what the six paths are, and Nagato did excercise all but one of the SO6P's abilities, Nagato never performed SO6P Izanagi. Otherwise, Nagato distributed the Six Paths to his corpses while Madara and Edo Nagato used them all in one body.

    As I understand it, The six paths are described here (Japanese bhudism):

    http://www.onmarkproductions.com/html/six-states.shtml

    The paths are 1) Hell, 2) Human, 3) Hungy Ghost, 4) Asura, 5) Animal, 6) Deva.

    Each path had an effect that Nagato was able to activate.

    The Huge difference with the SO6P was the Scale and Power of what he could do, as opposed to Nagato.


    I'd like someone better versed in these matters to chime in.

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  6. #86
    Senior Member knife eater's Avatar
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    I don't subscribe to the Yin and Yang approach as famous presents it. I see it as simpler circumstance. One bloodline has access to extreme power. The other bloodline sustains that power. Yes, that is a simplification of what famous said but the difference is that my interpretation doesn't always have to be an issue of Yin and Yang. The sharingan is literally the rinnegan but only a shard of it. The senju bloodline has been proven, through danzo, to influence and affect the behavior and powers of the sharingan but no uchiha requires any senju cells to activate the sharingan. I don't think simply receiving the rinnegan through a transplant circumvents any requirements to maintain it, only activation is circumvented. With no senju juice to sustain the rinnegan, itachi and sasuke would truly turn into husks or prunes in a short amount of time. Both bloidlines contain Yin and Yang qualities, the senju body cannot simply be deemed, "Yang" and likewise the sharingan cannot be simply "Yin".

    I know this chapter said nagato, who was uzumaki, was of the senju bloodline but i suspect that claim has an implication in error. It suggested that senju preceded uzumaki (which ties with much earlier claims that uzumaki and senju are distantly related). I still believe that uzumaki came first and was a primary trait in some way regarding where the sage came from. The uber top of the line sealing techniques of the uzumaki is one facet indicating they preceded senju. Those techniques would have been the most vital tool in what the sage did with the 10 tails. I don't see the senju producing the uzumaki only to create a branch of the bloodline seemingly more powerful in chakras and vitality yet not be as recognized in its potential to combine with uchiha bloodline, something that until now has been exclusively calling upon senju. Nagato was a special case, it seems, but the possibit probability remains that only one of his parents may have been uzumaki yet the other parent being senju. We see through hashirama that senju and uzumaki often wed, have extremely close ties, and well, you get the point. It's very likely he had a senju parent as well as an uzumaki parent. The fact that naruto is half uzumaki is evidence that the so6p was as well IF the reincarnation idea comes to fruition.

    I hope the manga presents clarification soon as to the origin and relationship between the bloodlines. Kabuto got us as far as learning the major and minor bloodlines behind each 6 paths. Another tidbit is that senju lack reputation for sealing techniques, something that would obviously exist if the senju descended from uzumaki. Instead they only share the characteristic vitality and outside of hashirama and some extent, tsunade, the uzumaki on the whole appear to have greater lifeforce and stamina. I really don't understand the great importance of mokuton, though, and why it was unique to hashirama because the flashbacks to the sage contain plenty of imagery and links to the uchiha, sharingan, and sharingan tech but almost entirely lack hints, clues, or links to mokuton and senju characteristics. There is, however, elements and examples of sealing tech and really strong stamina.

    I am disappointed we know sooooo little about the senju and what sort of clan tech they possessed and how the average senju stood a chance to. an average sharingan user during their clan fued prior to konaha. Only hashirama wielded wood style yet mangekyo sharingan was not exclusive to madara, neither was eternal mangekyo sharingan. As a clan you would think the uchiha would have made short work of the senju.
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  7. #87
    Senior Member Jean-Marie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paulbee View Post
    But Jean Marie, we do know what the six paths are, and Nagato did excercise all but one of the SO6P's abilities, Nagato never performed SO6P Izanagi. Otherwise, Nagato distributed the Six Paths to his corpses while Madara and Edo Nagato used them all in one body.

    As I understand it, The six paths are described here (Japanese bhudism):

    http://www.onmarkproductions.com/html/six-states.shtml

    The paths are 1) Hell, 2) Human, 3) Hungy Ghost, 4) Asura, 5) Animal, 6) Deva.

    Each path had an effect that Nagato was able to activate.

    The Huge difference with the SO6P was the Scale and Power of what he could do, as opposed to Nagato.


    I'd like someone better versed in these matters to chime in.
    My idea was that there are several sets of 6 paths.
    You're listing the 6 paths used by Nagato = the 6 paths of Pain.
    The paths described by Tobi with eye and body being the 2 1st ones and the rinnegan being the 3rd don't fit this list. Especially you wouldn't call rinnegan the 3rd path if it grants you all the 6 paths.
    Maybe beings have 6 possible paths (your list)
    And powers have also 6 possible paths (eye, body, rinnegan,?, ?, ?)

    I wonder if it was stated that the 6 paths of the so6p were the 6 paths of Pain.

  8. #88
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    ^ I believe that this was a misstranslation. Tobi said "You are the third of the sixth paths...". I thought that he meant clans: Uchiha, Senji, Uzumaki, ?, ?, ?. But it appears that he was refering to rinnegan wielders - so6p, Madara, Nagato.

  9. #89
    Senior Member Jean-Marie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jean-Marie View Post
    Rinnegan = yin + yang? I don't think so. Firstly this was never mentioned.
    Sorry Rinflamous. You were right, and the yin-yang stuff was clearly stated.
    yin-yang.jpg


    bjnpav,
    There are many mistranslations indeed. Still, before to say that rinnegan is the third path, Tobi said that eye and body were the 2 1st one. That's why I still wouldn't think he meant the 3rd rinnegan wielder.
    Path 1& 2.jpgpath 3.jpg


    (Nota: all info in chapter 510)

  10. #90
    Senior Member paulbee's Avatar
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    @Jean Marie,

    Here is what I think. What Tobi said was horribly mistranslated. Instead of "6 Paths" it should have read "Sages of Six Paths".

    The first Sage of Six Paths was SO6P himself. The Second was Uchiha Madara. The Third was Nagato. When Tobi said that "Two of the six paths are now one being, that was another mistranslation, I believe that what he was alluding to was Uchiha Madara and Hashirama Senju (two people) becoming One being by combining body cells, in order to become the Second Sage of Six Paths.

    Yes it was a Mangastream translation, but Tobi was Being Cryptic in Japanese . That cryptic Japanese is horribly difficult to Translate well, or Maybe it's an Interpretation issue, rather than a translation issue.


    EDIT: I had to edit this comment to show that the parts in reduced italics are no longer my thoughts. I think the comment Tobi made about Two paths becoming one being should be read (interpreted) to say TWO ASPECTS OF THE 6 PATHS SAGE (Hashirama and Madara representing Senju and Uchiha) HAVE BECOME ONE BEING (ie they have been merged) .
    Last edited by paulbee; 10-22-2012 at 02:38 AM.

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