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  1. #61
    Senior Member Jean-Marie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paulbee View Post
    I'd add that Kishi should stop overusing the Nobody is truly evil/Talk-no-Jutsu Cures ALL thing.
    I sure know what you mean. Naruto has talknojutsu'ed so many already:
    - Kurama
    - Pain
    - Zabuza
    - Apes'king (also we never saw him evil, all beasts were described as pure hatred in the first place. So in the previous times it wouldn't have seemed possible to witness any beast as good)
    - even Tobi seems next and soon on the list (because of several hints)

    It doesn't seem realistic that all villains will be converted like this. And therefore we wish it won't happen.

    On the other hands, what else?
    Naruto is always referred to as someone who has something greater than his own chakra and his beast: his power to turn people into good.
    The so6p has preferred his 2nd son because the 2nd was preferring love, while the 1st was preferring strength.
    It would betray the whole message conveyed by this manga if Naruto was defeating the final villain by overpowering him.

    (on a side note, this is the reason why I don't buy the largely accepted idea that Naruto and Sasuke will team up to overpower the final villain Madara)


    Quote Originally Posted by true86no View Post
    Rin's death was no mystery..

    It was war. They were surrounded. No way out. They did not want to get captured.

    Rin,"I'd rather die by your hand, Kakkashi".

    Kakkashi,"Ok, if you are sure. I'll be right behind you. You won't be alone".

    An exhausted Kakkashi kills Rin with his final Chidori, unknowingly fulfills and unlocks the mangekyo. (which he didn't know that it would)

    Obito happens to arrive just in time to witness the kill. Hence along with Kakkashi who just killed a close friend, while carrying one of his eyes. Both eyes transformed into the mangekyo. Kakkashi passes out from exhaustion. Obito freaked out and with his new mangekyo and zetsu body armor kills everybody.

    It was suicide over capture/torture/forced to betray Konoha, choose your reasons.
    While what you write makes perfect sense, I'm still sure there's something else.
    This rational way of thinking (putting feelings aside, and acting coldly and based on common sense) is done by people like Danzo. Those people don't score good in this manga: I mean that even though they meant good, Kishi takes care that the readers would hate them. Obviously this is not the place Kakashi is meant to have in this manga.

    And then, there are too many hints that the transformation of Obito was set-up by Madara. Therefore I can't buy that Obito was just by chance at the proper moment to witness the death of Rin. Look. Even the crush of Obito onder the boulders looks like part of the set-up.

  2. #62
    I'll be waiting, be sure. Yoru's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paulbee View Post
    Come now, Have you been reading Naruto, or are you just trollin?
    Is Obito really this stupid?
    Maybe back then he was, out of desperaton he said that he will bring back rin in the genjustu to make himself feel better.
    But i think that he later changed his mind a bit. After learning about the rinnegan and its ability of rinne tensei he realized that bringing back the real Rin would be 10000 times better so he made a pact with nagato, telling him that once he'll get what he wants he will have to perform a rinne tensei for him. Of course nagato was a pawn and he was going to be elimnated anyways, after bringing rin back. He betrayed Obito, so he decided to take the eyes and keep them for himself, so he'll be able to use rinne tensei himself before the mugen tsukiyomi so he can use it on real rin.
    I think the only purpose for him to take the eye, besides military power is just for rinne tensei ability, because, (correct me if I'm wrong) Madara said he could have controled gedo mazou even without rinnegan, so he didn't really need the eyes did he?

  3. #63
    Senior Member Jean-Marie's Avatar
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    Jeopardy in Madara's plan:

    Old Madara seems confident about his plan. But how does it work? There must be much more we don't know about. Because with the little we know, it really seems doomed to fail:
    - Obito took the decision 5 min ago about the dream world, in a moment he was in deep stress. Can Madara be sure Obito will keep to that decision all his life long?
    - Obito wants the dream world only to have Rin back. But Madara introduces him to Nagato who has the power to bring her back for real, and not as a dream. Quite a risk Obito would have a second thought and decide to go for a real Rin and let go the plan.
    - how can you know in advance that Nagato will want to gather the tailed beasts and resurect Madara? His personalia was made by his 2 bad experiences of pain (which could have been staged) but also from (bad)listening to Jiraya (which couldn't have been staged). How could Madara be sure in advance that Nagato would cooperate?
    - futher Madara has to be sure in advance that Tobi and Nagato won't be killed during all those decades. Tobi has been amaterasued, rassenganned, and died under the papers tagged with bombs. Nagato has been defeated twice (by Naruto; and by Itashi helped by Naruto and Bee). Nagato has been fighting very strong shinobis like the salamander. So there were some more many possibilities to die.
    - further again the akatsuki had to perform good. Not obvious those criminals would accept to work together. Not obvious they wouldn't try to betray and keep the tailed beast for themselves. Not obvious they would gather the tailed beast in time. And indeed the timing is crap: after those many years or decades, they reach the last day and they are still missing two tailed beasts.

    So there must be something else in the plan. Something that makes Madara so sure it will work that he can commit suicide just like that.

    Maybe (I don't really believe it's that. But it's the only explanation I can think of so far) maybe, the black bars are involved. The bars are in zetsu, in Obito, and in Nagato. They have Marara's will so maybe they influence the decision making of those 3 guys.

  4. #64
    Senior Member Jean-Marie's Avatar
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    Where is the spiral Zetsu?
    He stopped talking to Tobi. So where is he? Could it be that we have seen his death before? When Tobi was amaterasued by Sasuke, Tobi strangely reappeared whole and healthy. Could it be that Tobi just removed the burning zetsuit? And that was the end of spiral zetsu.

  5. #65
    Scanlator POW's Avatar
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    There are only a handful of bad guy characters that are immune from talk no jutsu and some of these guys are dead.


    Kakuza
    Hidan
    Madara
    Orochimaru



    - Obito is basically an alternate version of Naruto much like Nagato and thus is in danger of being hugged back to his senses.

    - It's possible once either Madara or Obito becomes the Jyuubi host they can use the revival jutsu to bring back anyone they want. Then they can drag them into the dream world.

    - I'm still confused how Madara was brought back with both his eyes when he died with a replacement.

    MY guess would be the condition of the Edo tensei depends on the DNA sample used to bring them back. Maybe Kabuto used DNA from the 1st Hokages weapon when he battled Madara that had his blood at the time. That DNA was from a time before Madara had aged to the point in the flashbacks now.

    So for instance if you found DNA of Chiyo when she was still young and used that she would be revived in her younger state rather than as an old lady.


    Fire type

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  6. #66
    Senior Member paulbee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jean-Marie View Post
    Where is the spiral Zetsu?
    He stopped talking to Tobi. So where is he? Could it be that we have seen his death before? When Tobi was amaterasued by Sasuke, Tobi strangely reappeared whole and healthy. Could it be that Tobi just removed the burning zetsuit? And that was the end of spiral zetsu.
    I think Zetsuit has been fully absorbed into and is now part of Tobi. There are reasons to believe this.

    1) Obito's body is already Half Zetsu (hashirama clone) anyway, him adding more Hashirama to mix with what he already has is simple enough.

    2) Obito LOST HIS LEFT ARM vs Minato, this was a while after he had first used the Zetsuit and the arm he lost was not a human arm.

    Tobi vs Minato.jpg

    My guess on the Amaterasu is that Tobi used the Uchiha Kinjutsu knowledge, or perhaps the IN'YOUTON jutsus to extinguish amaterasu, then he just used Hashirama's power to regenerate himself..

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  7. #67
    Que gatito mas leeendo!!! hikonami's Avatar
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    i have a doubt. in this chapter when obito tries yo hold rin for the first time, his hand goes through her, but later he is able to use both hands to hold her. what does it mean?
    Miau, Miau, Miau.....prrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!!!!!!!!!!

  8. #68
    Senior Member Zero's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paulbee View Post
    I think Zetsuit has been fully absorbed into and is now part of Tobi. There are reasons to believe this.

    1) Obito's body is already Half Zetsu (hashirama clone) anyway, him adding more Hashirama to mix with what he already has is simple enough.

    2) Obito LOST HIS LEFT ARM vs Minato, this was a while after he had first used the Zetsuit and the arm he lost was not a human arm.

    Tobi vs Minato.jpg

    My guess on the Amaterasu is that Tobi used the Uchiha Kinjutsu knowledge, or perhaps the IN'YOUTON jutsus to extinguish amaterasu, then he just used Hashirama's power to regenerate himself..
    His real hand, even if strengthened, shouldn't become a Zetsu fluid (unless 4th's rasengan was packed with life energy, which wouldn't make sense seeing as after taking life infused rasengan from Naruto, nothing happened to him beside taking normal damage). In other words, he lost his right hand as well somewhere around the way of pretending to be Madara, or it was Kishi's mistake (happens from time to time).

    For example, Nagato started cooperating with Madara (Obito) after Yahiko's death, which might mean that Nagato might have been able to take Obito off guard (he is still young and unexperienced) and injured him along with killing the Spiral Zetsu. Let's face it, how would Madara (Obito) accept "NO!" otherwise ?

    What's really interesting is that Obito started acting as Madara, a few years after Yahiko created Akatsuki (you can see Nagato older and in their black (non-cloud) akatsuki gear). This means that the one that Genjutsued Yahiko into creating Akatsuki was the real Madara.

    Quote Originally Posted by hikonami View Post
    i have a doubt. in this chapter when obito tries yo hold rin for the first time, his hand goes through her, but later he is able to use both hands to hold her. what does it mean?
    His MS power went a little out of control, if you haven't noticed. Thus he first had to concentrate to stop it from working. Yeah, the MS jutsu working without learning is hax, as if their eyes capable of copying other jutsu isn't enough. Thankfully their eyes can't copy other magic eyes... then again, Madara still obtained something that he shouldn't by copying the legend...



    Oh right, I forgot to mention that Madara's genjutsu for the MEP seems quite powerful, it easily captured a Hashirama-Boosted Sharingan user with a MS (although he didn't active his MS nor did he try to break it, still his eye was activated so it should block it automatically... right ?). This might suggest that there was no need to annihilate the Uchiha because of their anti-illusion capabilities and simply they were annihilated along the way, to weaken Konoha and eliminate the risk of them controlling the bijuu or perhaps even the revived Jyubi ?
    Last edited by Zero; 10-19-2012 at 01:32 AM.


  9. #69
    Yesss... Rlinfamous's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by POW View Post
    - I'm still confused how Madara was brought back with both his eyes when he died with a replacement.

    MY guess would be the condition of the Edo tensei depends on the DNA sample used to bring them back. Maybe Kabuto used DNA from the 1st Hokages weapon when he battled Madara that had his blood at the time. That DNA was from a time before Madara had aged to the point in the flashbacks now.

    So for instance if you found DNA of Chiyo when she was still young and used that she would be revived in her younger state rather than as an old lady.
    It's possible that a missing eye is an injury that would be healed by the Edo Tensei revival. It IS odd, though, that Madara was revived with his Rinnegan, which he was neither born with (as the eyes were Izuna's) nor died with (as the eyes were in Nagato). So yeah, strange.

    As far as simply regaining an eye, another option is that, since a corpse with presumably two eyes was used for the revival, Madara's body retained that even after possessing/transforming the host body.

    Perhaps Madara's "Prime" in terms of unlocking the Rinnegan is simply tied to his own Soul, and so he'd retain that regardless; the imprint that he possessed the Rinnegan superceded the fact that the eyes were not his to begin with, and so it's Madara's Rinnegan, not Izuna's.

    It's equally odd that Nagato was revived with the Rinnegan and not his own, original eyes. Pretty much verifies that any Edo who dies with powerful eyes or other transplants will be revived with those powers intact. Of course, Sasori was still revived with his original body and not a puppet body.

  10. #70
    Senior Member paulbee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rlinfamous View Post
    It's possible that a missing eye is an injury that would be healed by the Edo Tensei revival. It IS odd, though, that Madara was revived with his Rinnegan, which he was neither born with (as the eyes were Izuna's) nor died with (as the eyes were in Nagato). So yeah, strange.

    As far as simply regaining an eye, another option is that, since a corpse with presumably two eyes was used for the revival, Madara's body retained that even after possessing/transforming the host body.

    Perhaps Madara's "Prime" in terms of unlocking the Rinnegan is simply tied to his own Soul, and so he'd retain that regardless; the imprint that he possessed the Rinnegan superceded the fact that the eyes were not his to begin with, and so it's Madara's Rinnegan, not Izuna's.

    It's equally odd that Nagato was revived with the Rinnegan and not his own, original eyes. Pretty much verifies that any Edo who dies with powerful eyes or other transplants will be revived with those powers intact. Of course, Sasori was still revived with his original body and not a puppet body.
    Kishimoto has got himself into an Edo Tensei problem...HOWEVER, it's a problem he can easily wiggle out of.

    Since Kishi has never fully explaine ET, He could whip up some Baloney about it being imprinted on the soul as Famous is saying, but if he does this, He has to somehow explain where the source material came from, soul imprint or not.

    It's the same issue with the weapons of the Ninjas, I get ET reformating the Body of the sacrifice to the dna of the host, but how does that explain clothes and Item that are not DNA source material?

    So perhaps ET works on a complex set of rules.

    Soul imprint guides the MYSTERIOUS OTHERWORLDLY ET FORCES to use the DNA as a template to reformat the sacrifice into a replicant of the target as specified by the soul. For Inanimate materials, the Soul Imprint Guides the MYSTERIOUS OTHERWORLDLY ET FORCES to reformat clothes or other inanimate material on or in the vicinity of the sacrifice into the shape and form specified by the soul. In some cases, the aformentioned MYSTERIOUS OTHERWORLDLY ET FORCES use summoning to obtain what is needed.

    Sheesh!!!!

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    Growing Old Gracefully is an Oxymoron ... Mostly Moron !

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