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  1. #91
    Senior Member knife eater's Avatar
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    I never thought otherwise, tobi meaning the number of people to have gained access to the sage's power (rinnegan), not meaning an individual represented a single path.

    As for "two of the paths now one being".. i think it's not so badly translated when you take into account kabuto's approach to becoming the "fourth" sage of the 6 paths. His approach was to infuse the powers of specific bloodlines into his body. Each bloodline in this case is either a major or minor bloodline originating more closely from the sage. When you also remember that orochimaru was after ultimate knowledge and jutsu, experimented with senju powers and had very unique subjects in his hideout (which now comprise taka /hebi) , bloodlines, certain ones, contain a fragment of the sage's power. Sasuke walking with members of those minor bloodlines (Karin as uzumaki would be one of the three major bloodlines) can now be considered to have sage potential depending on how he wants to approach it. If course, it seems nobody can truly have the sage's power without rinnegan. I think tobi meant that statement to stand on face value.

    That's my take, anyway. Paths can mean either realm, bloodline, or power stemming from either. The bloodline and realm must share the base in order to correspond on each end.

    Edit: thanks to jean-marie i was able to address my own problem. Always wondered why senju was so important when uzumaki is often used synonymously by having arguably better vitality and stamina, not to mention they preserved and used ultimate sealing techniques (senju have squat except for hashirama's mokuton). It seems that in tobi's lecture he points out the key senju trait. While it isn't necessarily a technique or jutsu it is key property of all things. The senju bloodline contained the power to grant life. I know it was obvious for a long time, i just never really discerned it as a unique thing to treat senju differently than uzumaki. While uzumaki have abundance of vitality for its,members, it lacks the mystic quality of "breathing life" into imagination and vitality isn't the same thing.

    Now, i wonder if namikaze will be revealed to be a minor bloodline like jugo and suigetsu's bloodlines seem to be. If the cloud village had so many treasures and traditions from the sage then there must be descending clans from either brother. Since minato's abilities were in the raikage's league i wonder if namikaze comes from cloud originally and was part of the clouds piece of sage heritage /lineage.
    Last edited by knife eater; 10-22-2012 at 01:53 AM.
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  2. #92
    Senior Member paulbee's Avatar
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    Regarding the Senju and Uzumaki, I rather think that the Uzumaki were in a sense, the Senju Version of Uchiha.

    Recall that in past discussions we have pretty much concluded that the Uchiha maintained Clan purity by not intermarrying none Uchiha, thus keeping their bloodline enriched. The Senju on the other hand freely mixed with none Senjus, relying more on the Will Of Fire, than on genetic Traits.

    I see the Uzumaki as a Senju branch that kept to themselves and did not mix with other Clans except perhaps with certain Chosen and exceptional Senjus like Hashirama. In this fashion, Senjus and Uzumakis are kinsmen with the Senjus being more diluted than the Uzumaki from the Younger Son's bloodline.

    The Uzumaki trademark Red hair is just an Incidental dominant trait passed down from the Senjus that Separated themselves in order to form the Uzumaki Clan.

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  3. #93
    Senior Member knife eater's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paulbee View Post
    Regarding the Senju and Uzumaki, I rather think that the Uzumaki were in a sense, the Senju Version of Uchiha.

    Recall that in past discussions we have pretty much concluded that the Uchiha maintained Clan purity by not intermarrying none Uchiha, thus keeping their bloodline enriched. The Senju on the other hand freely mixed with none Senjus, relying more on the Will Of Fire, than on genetic Traits.

    I see the Uzumaki as a Senju branch that kept to themselves and did not mix with other Clans except perhaps with certain Chosen and exceptional Senjus like Hashirama. In this fashion, Senjus and Uzumakis are kinsmen with the Senjus being more diluted than the Uzumaki from the Younger Son's bloodline.

    The Uzumaki trademark Red hair is just an Incidental dominant trait passed down from the Senjus that Separated themselves in order to form the Uzumaki Clan.
    Bummer, i wasn't around during those discussions. I think what you say is an interesting take on the situation. I kinda wish we had more backstory on the senju as, IMO, it would stand to have made the story richer. Waiting too much longer will cause any offered backstory to lose impact or seem convenient and cheap. I don't want it to occur alongside another sharingan episode of power ups.

    I suppose that hashirama sharing bijuu and dispersion of power also falls in line with the mixing of bloodline bent.

    At least the manga can resort to focusing on uzumaki, which only has claim to a few survivors and can compare to uchiha in that sense.

    In another note, the black staff madara caused to grow from the hashirama stuck in the mazou.. that means it definitely was created from mokuton? I wonder how and why madara's will creates chakra transmission stuffs. It didn't appear to be birthed from imagination but instead was raw will fed through hashirama. I wonder if black zetsu then shares any traits with the black rods.

    Finally, everyday i think about it i believe more and more that the kamui dimension is the moon or a special part of the moon tied to the sealed 10 tails. The sharingan being a literal shard of rinnegan causes a narrative or plot eligibility for it to have a special attachment to the origin and cause of it's power, the 10 tails. I think it's as heavily hinted to being the moon as tobi being obito. Lots of indication, lots of room for doubt. If the sharingan can access a dimension then the sage would on 99% probability have had access to the same place and have used it. I think a sealing technique along with kamui space time would be his method of sealing the 10 tails and also "sending it away".
    _____
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  4. #94
    Senior Member Jean-Marie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by knife eater View Post
    Finally, everyday i think about it i believe more and more that the kamui dimension is the moon or a special part of the moon tied to the sealed 10 tails. The sharingan being a literal shard of rinnegan causes a narrative or plot eligibility for it to have a special attachment to the origin and cause of it's power, the 10 tails. I think it's as heavily hinted to being the moon as tobi being obito. Lots of indication, lots of room for doubt. If the sharingan can access a dimension then the sage would on 99% probability have had access to the same place and have used it. I think a sealing technique along with kamui space time would be his method of sealing the 10 tails and also "sending it away".
    I doubt that. Pain tried to trap the 9-tails the same way the so6p got rid of the 10-tails body. It wasn't sending into another dimension. It was just forcibly moving his body up in the sky, with debris from earth below.

  5. #95
    Senior Member knife eater's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jean-Marie View Post
    I doubt that. Pain tried to trap the 9-tails the same way the so6p got rid of the 10-tails body. It wasn't sending into another dimension. It was just forcibly moving his body up in the sky, with debris from earth below.
    Hmmmm, i am not convinced of much meaningful similarity between pein's moon and the sage's sealing of the jyubi into the moon. Don't forget that pein was not the 9 tails jinchuriki whereas the so6p was the 10 tails jinchuriki. Different requirements i think, also different intentions playing out in different circumstances under a radically different scale of power. Besides, my claim of kamui dimension being the moon suggests just that, it is the moon, a physical location, not an extra dimension. Space-time exists in naruto yet we have no example or demonstration of time travel. Likewise, it's doubtful there are parallel dimensions or extradimensional spaces divorced from the reality within narutoverse.

    Anyway, i started a thread in theories section for kamui. I would be grateful if you shared your thoughts on kamui there.
    _____
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  6. #96
    Senior Member Nano's Avatar
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    How about Madara used an Uzumaki because they had scattered after the eddy village had been destroyed and no longer held the loyalty to the leaf village, and so were easier to control. If Madara gave the rinnegan to a Senju, that Senju would fight for the leaf village and against him would be a key to his enemies as the senjuu actively practiced the Will of Fire. When Uzumakis dont have this loyalty or Will so they could be used in the way Nagato was.

    So for Madaras plan either Senju or Uzumaki would have ben fine, but Uzuamkis are easier to find and use outside of the leaf village so Nagato was chosen.
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  7. #97
    Senior Member paulbee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nano View Post
    How about Madara used an Uzumaki because they had scattered after the eddy village had been destroyed and no longer held the loyalty to the leaf village, and so were easier to control. If Madara gave the rinnegan to a Senju, that Senju would fight for the leaf village and against him would be a key to his enemies as the senjuu actively practiced the Will of Fire. When Uzumakis dont have this loyalty or Will so they could be used in the way Nagato was.

    So for Madaras plan either Senju or Uzumaki would have ben fine, but Uzuamkis are easier to find and use outside of the leaf village so Nagato was chosen.
    Madara used an Uzumaki (and not just any Uzumaki would do), because they have the Physical Energies closest to the Younger Brother's. Most Senjus have been diluted out of their Younger brother Lineage Traits.

    Nagato found an Uzumaki who could summon and use the Geddou Mazou. Basically, Nagato was special because he had the Life Energy properties needed. I think Naruto would have been suitable too.

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  8. #98
    I'll be waiting, be sure. Yoru's Avatar
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    Remember me Paul, who was it that manged to kill off one of the strongest clans (uzumaki) ?

    If it hasn't been said yet, i would bet my money on the uchiha, or Madara himself.

  9. #99
    Senior Member knife eater's Avatar
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    As for the loyalty issue goes, while the uzumaki were extremely loyal and staunchly allied with the leaf.. i suppose such ties would have waned after the destruction of the whirlpool. Konaha seems to have continued symbolic support of the whirlpool with the uzumaki /Edy spiral adorned throughout leaf gear and such. It was an alliance between not just uzumaki and senju (at the core it perhaps was) but between their villages. Uzumaki loyalty was to the leaf, not limited to recognizing blood relations to the senju. It sort of disappeared, though, after minato and kushina perished.

    As for nagato and Karin, they don't represent any sort of evident lack of loyalty or change in the uzumaki relationship to the leaf. Being isolated in early age (thanks to madara and orochimaru), they were never properly taught their blood /village/clan heritage. They are special cases manipulated in a vacuum. I don't see at all a case of uzumaki being chosen of senju because if loyalties or enmities with other clans or villages.

    If itachi can slaughter the near entirety of uchiha then a senju is certainly not guaranteed to turn on madara with the transplanted rinnegan. Circumstances are different for everybody and madara has proven he is adept at utilizing and manipulating a person's circumstances, which oddly enough, is what he did to nagato.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yoru View Post
    Remember me Paul, who was it that manged to kill off one of the strongest clans (uzumaki) ?

    If it hasn't been said yet, i would bet my money on the uchiha, or Madara himself.
    Probably. Why was sealing tech so feared as to warrant a,preemptive attack by other villages, which was suggested to be a multiple village assault. If sealing tech could not repel such an attack then does it not prove it is not as fearsome as was told? The logic falls on the uzumaki preserving tech and knowledge from the sage. Most likely the sealing of the jyubi was even preserved, after all, the sage could not have put his entire stock of essence and power into diluted sharingan tech.

    I see reason and pattern for madara to work at the destruction of that which descended from the sage. It guarantees his exclusive access to that power without fear of any meaningful opposition.

    A force comprised of uchiha is also unlikely. Nidaime and sarutobi, even danzou, would be informed and opposed of their village attacking their best friends. Uchiha wouldn't make sense, after madara they even sought and accepted peace with hashirama and the senju. They were pretty much in accord with konaha after madara's defeat up to the time when they were said to be forming a coup. That's about 2 generations time when the uchiha could be said to be on the whole, "good guys".

    I wonder which villages were used to attack Edy. Perhaps rock? Madara had already conducted his "peace deal" with them and had the route open for akatsuki biz. Bloodline expansion might have been just the tool to weigh against legendary sealing techniques wielded by insanely stamina rich long living shinobi. It's the only thing i can think of that was present at that time before madara's rinnegan and pein's shinra tensei that could wipe out an entire village. Muu or ooniki (perhaps both) using dust against Edy under madara's behest or influence is my educated guess. Other factors would be for reasons of cover up.
    Last edited by knife eater; 10-22-2012 at 07:22 PM.
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  10. #100
    Senior Member paulbee's Avatar
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    Hi Yoru, I think that Madara could have instigated the Destruction of the Hidden Eddy village although I doubt he did it alone.

    It is worthwhile to remember that Madara did not awaken the Rinnegan until close to his Death. With that in mind, it is not likely that he would want to go through the hassle of attacking the Uzumakis if his plan to revive the Juubi was not working (ie no rinnegan yet). Once he awakened his Rinnegan, then he may have reason to want to destroy the Uzumakis preventatively.

    Another way of looking at it is that Madara could have had them destroyed just out of Spite and Hatred for all things Senju. The Uzumakis would have represented Senju powers better than Konoha, and thus may have been a target for him, with or without the Rinnegan.

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