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  1. #91
    Senior Member paulbee's Avatar
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    Final theory time:

    Kakashi kills Rin, but We know that Kakashi will never do that willingly. Kakashi therefore is being controlled or manipulated.

    There are 3 types of Manipulation/Control that have featured prominently in the Manga.

    1) Genjutsu

    2) Curse Doll or Curse seal

    3) Body possesion (like the Yamanaka Clan)

    I've said previously that this attack on Rin is just too coincidential and too convenient. It happening at the exact time that Obito is well enough to leave Madara's base, and right after Obito has met with Body Suit Zetsu and practice using its power. Now despite the coincidences there is no hard evidence that Madara is manipulating the situation although it is a distinct possibility.

    On Madara:

    I suspect that the Body suit Zetsu exists because Madara made it for himself. If Madara has used this Zetsu, he could have left the Cave easily. It would be nice if we could have put a time to The Kisame meetting with Madara.

    Finally



    In the lower image, the character looks like Ibiki who is 1 yr older than Kakashi. In the upper image we see Ibiki cornering Kisame. The Events in the upper image must have happened recently, say within 5yrs of current time. This would seem to prove/imply that the Madara hiding in the Shadows is indeed Obito as the Original Madara would have been dead by then.

    In the end, both the short haired and long haired Madaras, wearing both Masks, would have been Tobi-Obito

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  2. #92
    Senior Member Jean-Marie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paulbee View Post
    Final theory time:

    Kakashi kills Rin, but We know that Kakashi will never do that willingly. Kakashi therefore is being controlled or manipulated.

    There are 3 types of Manipulation/Control that have featured prominently in the Manga.

    1) Genjutsu

    2) Curse Doll or Curse seal

    3) Body possesion (like the Yamanaka Clan)

    I've said previously that this attack on Rin is just too coincidential and too convenient. It happening at the exact time that Obito is well enough to leave Madara's base, and right after Obito has met with Body Suit Zetsu and practice using its power. Now despite the coincidences there is no hard evidence that Madara is manipulating the situation although it is a distinct possibility.
    My best theory is still the set-up: either Kakashi, or Rin or both would be a Zetsu.

    Then my second theory is the same as yours: genjutsu, curse, possession. Madara can't do it himself because he cannot go out: he dies if disconnected from his tree. Zetzu doesn't have such power. Maybe the one Madara gave his eye to could do that?

    Then for the other theories (assassination, accident, suicide) comes indeed the "too coincidential and too convenient" issue. One explanation could be that Madara could have seen the future so he would have known at which exact moment Kakashi would have stroked. Others have seen the future already: Naruto, the old frog, ...
    If it is an assassination, another explanation is that the assassination was planned by Madara: he would have added in Kakashi's orders the mission to eliminate Rin at a determined date and time. With some good reason for it I guess.




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  3. #93
    Senior Member paulbee's Avatar
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    Actually Jean Marie, I hadn't thought that the whole scene may have been a complete farce, an act of Zetsus. If true, that would have been a rather daring Gambit.

    I know Madara said he could not leave, but wasn't Spiral Zetsu proof that he could leave? Madara could have used Spiral Zetsus before. It's not likely that this was the first and only time spiral Zetsu(s) were ever created or used.

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  4. #94
    Senior Member Nano's Avatar
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    How about the idea that Rin dying is all Obitos fault?

    Kakashi could have been fighting a mist Ninja, fires up chitori, he commits to the charge - Obito's proximity causes issues for Kakashi's vision. In that moment the Mist guy uses substitution with Rin as the swap, Kakashi can't see because the signal is going to Obito (making his Justu incomplete again) but he is commited to the charge so he hits Rin thinking its the Mist guy, Killing her. Obito felt the eye's proximity before the explosion occured, stopping him in his tracks so it is possible this caused similar issues for Kakashi. Ultimately killing Rin.
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  5. #95
    I don't think Kakashi would share the same vision as Obito. If he did, then why hasn't this affected Kakashi whenever he was near Tobi? If anything, I think this vision thing just affects Obito.

  6. #96
    Scanlator POW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paulbee View Post
    Finally



    In the lower image, the character looks like Ibiki who is 1 yr older than Kakashi. In the upper image we see Ibiki cornering Kisame. The Events in the upper image must have happened recently, say within 5yrs of current time. This would seem to prove/imply that the Madara hiding in the Shadows is indeed Obito as the Original Madara would have been dead by then.

    In the end, both the short haired and long haired Madaras, wearing both Masks, would have been Tobi-Obito
    That is Ibki and we know his age as well as Kisame.

    Actually we have good idea of when this event with the run in with Kisame happened because we have a timeline we can trace. Kisame joined Akatsuki at least 10 years ago as he mentions this during the final chapter of part 1, where they state its been "7 years since they where all last gathered together like this" pre-time skip mind you.


    Quote Originally Posted by paulbee View Post
    On Madara:

    I suspect that the Body suit Zetsu exists because Madara made it for himself. If Madara has used this Zetsu, he could have left the Cave easily. It would be nice if we could have put a time to The Kisame meetting with Madara.
    The suit was designed for Tobi to aid him in his development. Madara could move around on his own but was restrained to the cave. The other Zetsu's acted as guards and spies to keep tabs on everything.




    Quote Originally Posted by paulbee View Post
    Actually Jean Marie, I hadn't thought that the whole scene may have been a complete farce, an act of Zetsus. If true, that would have been a rather daring Gambit.

    I know Madara said he could not leave, but wasn't Spiral Zetsu proof that he could leave? Madara could have used Spiral Zetsus before. It's not likely that this was the first and only time spiral Zetsu(s) were ever created or used.
    Madara could not leave because he needed the umbilical cord supplying chakra to survive & the Zetsu has to unplug to leave the cave. Madara was essentially on life support...which makes me wonder.


    Since Edo Tensei's are brought back in the condition they where just before death how did Madara gain 2 eyes capable of activating Susanoo? I suspect we could assume his youth was restored because of Kabuto's modification of Hashirama face which increased his Senju potency. However that still leaves the question of the eyes and his comments about awakening the Rinnegan shortly before death up in the air.


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  7. #97
    Senior Member Jean-Marie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paulbee View Post
    Actually Jean Marie, I hadn't thought that the whole scene may have been a complete farce, an act of Zetsus. If true, that would have been a rather daring Gambit.

    I know Madara said he could not leave, but wasn't Spiral Zetsu proof that he could leave? Madara could have used Spiral Zetsus before. It's not likely that this was the first and only time spiral Zetsu(s) were ever created or used.
    The reason Madara can't leave is not the walls keeping him. He surely could use the Zetsu to go out.
    What keep him down in his cave is being obliged to remain bond to the gedo. He was almost killed. He has no more live force. He's using the live force from the gedo and will die if disconnected.
    Or did you mean the fact that Zetsu can be worn as a coat is a proof that Madara was planning to use him to leave, as the Zetzu is made from the same material as the gedo. Therefore the Zetsu would take over the function of the Gedo. Maybe he tried but a Zetsu is to small as compared to the gedo, so it doesn't work.
    Maybe the task of the Zetsu is not to take madara out but to bring dying shinobies to the cave. As many wrote before: too convenient Obito slipt through the ground right into Madara's cave. I question that, because the cave is under the skeleton-like entrance of Madara's hideout and not under the boulders were Obito died. Zetsu can travel underground. Maybe when he wraps someone he can transport this person underground too. His function could have been to bring to Madara all dying shinobies he found. Previous found shinobies would have refused to help Madara and would have been disposed of. Obito would have been the first one to cooperate. Or maybe one more: the one with Madara's eye.

  8. #98
    Senior Member Jean-Marie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by POW View Post
    Since Edo Tensei's are brought back in the condition they where just before death how did Madara gain 2 eyes capable of activating Susanoo? I suspect we could assume his youth was restored because of Kabuto's modification of Hashirama face which increased his Senju potency. However that still leaves the question of the eyes and his comments about awakening the Rinnegan shortly before death up in the air.
    Are you sure of that? I though Kabuto could choose any age he would like. I can't remember when this was told, so I'm not sure anymore. It's true that all the edos we've seen looked like in their final state/age before death.

    There might be 2 deaths of Madara: the death against Hashirama. And the death of the old phanthom in the cave. Edoing Madara would have brought the Madara from before the first death.

    Theory about Madara's deaths:
    During the battle with Hashirama, Madara is loosing. He has no more possibilities of killing Hashirama. He's dimishished, immobilised, has only one eye left. Activating izanagi would only bring him back into the diminished state and get him killed again. He finds the following exit. He's using Izanagi in a special way. His death becomes fiction but he's not to be brought back immediatly but only after Hashirama's death. When Hashirama eventually dies (from old age) Madara is suddently back. He's back blind and with the fetal wounds Hashirama gave him. To survive he's using senju cells he took from Madara. He lets the cells grow as big as a tree so that it has more power. Now that it is that big Madara can even stand and talk. The only option he founds to fully recover is to die one more time and make sure before someone will bring him back with rinnegan.

  9. #99
    Yesss... Rlinfamous's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paulbee View Post
    Actually Jean Marie, I hadn't thought that the whole scene may have been a complete farce, an act of Zetsus. If true, that would have been a rather daring Gambit.

    I know Madara said he could not leave, but wasn't Spiral Zetsu proof that he could leave? Madara could have used Spiral Zetsus before. It's not likely that this was the first and only time spiral Zetsu(s) were ever created or used.
    Madara was unable to leave because he had to remain rooted to the Mazou to stay alive. Unless the Hashirama power in Spiral Zetsu was able to feed Madara chakra, he would probably still be unable to move from the Mazou while wearing it.

  10. #100
    Senior Member KaitenV's Avatar
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    awesome cliffhanger
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