Naruto 604 Discussion / 605 Predictions

[Starone]

After thinking about it, I don't think Madara orchestrated the whole thing. I'm thinking what happened was that he had Zetsu keep tabs on Kakashi and Rin and then ordered him to not intervene if they were ever to fall into mortal danger and then alert Obito so he could witness their deaths. I think that's the extent of his involvement here.

[Rlinfamous]

After thinking about it, I don't think Madara orchestrated the whole thing. I'm thinking what happened was that he had Zetsu keep tabs on Kakashi and Rin and then ordered him to not intervene if they were ever to fall into mortal danger and then alert Obito so he could witness their deaths. I think that's the extent of his involvement here.

It would depend on when Tobi/Madara started manipulating the Hidden Mist. Also, the "experimental bodies" thing that Spiral Zetsu mentioned sounds very suspicious. I don't think Orochimaru had any involvement with the Mist, so that points towards Madara, in my mind.

[Jean-Marie]

ALSO, zetsu does not need food, sleep and doesn't age. The progenitor aka "the human who knows everything" will be a similar being, created from and consisting of the same stuff madara and hashirama powers are tapped into with creation and life. Wont be so6p but someone else.

Hashirama's power also in there?
There are not necessarilly a special power there. Sasuke goes there to get intel. Not for power. He is so little interested in power at the moment that he didn't make the scroll's power his own.
If there is a power there, I like the idea it would be the 4th path. We know from Tobi that the 1st two paths are the uchiha eye and the senju. The Rinnegan is the third of the six (ref chap 510-last page)
Still 3 paths to unravel. Naruto and Sasuke have only one each. While Tobi already possesses the 3 known ones. We're getting closer to the ressurection of the 10-tails. Time to get closer to the power of the so6p.

[stefanhendriks]

Makes me wonder about "feeding time" of the black & white zetsu. They needed to be merged in order to feed right? But white zetsu dont eat. So what is thisvblack zetsu?

[POW]

- I think as far as Kakashi killing Rin it may have been that Rin was being controlled by the enemy or Kakashi was. Remember it was raining and they are fighting Hidden Mist shinobi who specialize in Water jutsu.

- I think the reason Obito could see through his supposed Sharingan is because either the Kakashi that killed Rin was a Zetsu clone imitating Kakashi and he was telepathically linked to it temporarily. Meaning Madara set this up.....

or


It because of the Zetsu parts telepathic powers he was able to see through his old eye what Kakashi see's


- Also as far as Zetsu goes notice they dont have that giant Venus fly trap thing unless the two of them are merged.

- We where wondering how Tobi was able to warp and find people so easily I guess we figured it out he probably uses Zetsu hidden underground.

[Rlinfamous]

I wonder what Spiral Zetsu meant when he said that, with both Uchiha and Senju powers, Obito could "unlock a power never seen before." I mean, Madara clearly has access to Hashirama's power, and integrated it at least partially into himself (he's got roots sticking out the back of his head). Madara also had a complete set of Sharingan (EMS/Rinnegan to boot). I wonder if this gives us a bigger hint that Madara's use of Hashirama's power was somehow limited; we already knew that Kabuto/Orochimaru integrated Hashirama's power more fully into Edo Madara, hence restoring him beyond his prime, but what was the nature of Madara's own integration? Did he actually get to a stage less advanced than the work he did on Obito? And, if so, what is the power Zetsu imagined Obito achieving? Clearly not the Rinnegan, because Madara already had given his eyes to Nagato, and it appears they were already at the Rinnegan stage...

Sorry for the wall of text/spelling errors, this is just me typing on my phone on the way to class. :p

[paulbee]

@Rlinfamous,

Madara may have gotten the Rinnegan, but he did not get the full benefit of Senju power. I would say that Madara's technique was incomplete.

As to the Spiral Zetsu's suggestion to Obito, I think it's part of his mission to tempt Obito into alliance with Madara. Perhaps if the events unfolding were scripted, the next stage would be Obito wanting power to avenge Rin?

Famous, I gotta say that I am still not fully grooving with this Obito to Tobi conversion scheme. I mean, I read it, I understand it, but short of a mental breakdown/meltdown by Obito, which may be coming next, I don't completely see it. But if Obito suffers a mental breakdown, how does that reconstitute him into the Confident, scheming Tobi who has backup of backup plans?

We'll have to wait and see....

[Rlinfamous]

@Rlinfamous,

Madara may have gotten the Rinnegan, but he did not get the full benefit of Senju power. I would say that Madara's technique was incomplete.

As to the Spiral Zetsu's suggestion to Obito, I think it's part of his mission to tempt Obito into alliance with Madara. Perhaps if the events unfolding were scripted, the next stage would be Obito wanting power to avenge Rin?

Famous, I gotta say that I am still not fully grooving with this Obito to Tobi conversion scheme. I mean, I read it, I understand it, but short of a mental breakdown/meltdown by Obito, which may be coming next, I don't completely see it. But if Obito suffers a mental breakdown, how does that reconstitute him into the Confident, scheming Tobi who has backup of backup plans?

We'll have to wait and see....

I believe Obito is being tempted with a shortcut to power/justice for Rin when Spiral Zetsu offers to fight for him. I think the end result will be a merger between their personalities. Spiral Zetsu has already stated that he is more intelligent than the average human, and he himself is likely a product of Madara's own mental energies (transmitted through the root in the back of Madara's head into the giant Zetsu-bearing Mazou. In other words, much of how Obito became corrupted, his sudden growth in power/intelligence, and why Madara trusts him so completely, will be a result of this merge with Spiral Zetsu. It would also explain Obito's identity as "No one", or why he uses ambiguous language such as "Whether *I* survived or not isn't important."

I think Obito will ultimately fail the "Shortcut to Power" test... Sasuke did the same when he gave in to Orochimaru and relied on his curse mark (However, Sasuke also passed the test when he refused to kill Naruto to gain the Mangekyou). Naruto has always passed the test, turning away from relying on the Kyuubi when he realized it would hurt his friends, mastering Sage Mode, and ultimately facing the Kyuubi on his own terms when he was ready. Obito's character shares many parallels with both Naruto and Sasuke, and is tied directly to both their backstories, so I'm enjoying watching his fall into darkness with that in mind.

[knife eater]

Hashirama's power also in there?
There are not necessarilly a special power there. Sasuke goes there to get intel. Not for power. He is so little interested in power at the moment that he didn't make the scroll's power his own.
If there is a power there, I like the idea it would be the 4th path. We know from Tobi that the 1st two paths are the uchiha eye and the senju. The Rinnegan is the third of the six (ref chap 510-last page)
Still 3 paths to unravel. Naruto and Sasuke have only one each. While Tobi already possesses the 3 known ones. We're getting closer to the ressurection of the 10-tails. Time to get closer to the power of the so6p.

I didn't even have sasuke in mind when making the post, i know he is going to see "the human who knows everything " for answers, not power (but any that could change). My point was that the "human who knows everything " was translated as "progenitor " in the chapter title
To qualify as a universal progenitor it is necessary that the person be present during the beginning to establish the first and early order of things. The only progenitors so far mentioned in the manga that are also human (the 10 tails was progenitor to all things with emphasis on chakra and nature)... there are only three known that qualify; sage of thebsix paths and his two sons. Maybe there be a twist and a new character will be introduced, possibly the woman who carried the sage's children. Regardless, what is important is that the person, whoever it is, has lived many generations, possibly centuries to this point."

That said, the post you quoted meant to deliver the point that zetsu has the potential to live that sort of life and length of time. My educated guess is that the progenitor will have recognizible traits similar to zetsu, emphasis on the power hashirama inherited that blooms life. Not to say hashirama has a role here, but the power of the younger son is what most likely gives zetsu his disconnect from typical human needs and is a power 'the human who knows everything " is likely to be benefitting from as well.


ON SECOND THOUGHT ...

if we recall the kakashi gaiden, obito said he would see the future by being kakashi's eye. Since the scenario was shown to begin from within the emerging vision of obito's sharingan.. what we saw was actually all in obito's head, it hasn't happened yet but will happen very soon. It could even happen differently than what we saw. Whatever the case, i predict we will learn something new about the sharingan :/

[Rlinfamous]

I don't think Obito literally meant he would see the future from within Kakashi's eye, I think he meant it more in the "I'm going to die, but I'll be watching over you" sort of way. However, you may be right; the Sharingan has been known to predict movements (reveal where objects will be before they get there"). I also wonder about why Obito could see through his eye while it wasn't connected to his body; it fits well with my theory that the Sharingan houses a large portion the Uchiha's Spiritual Energies/Soul, quite apart from the body. This view of the Sharingan is reinforced by the EMS being a "power up" rather than merely a fix for blindness.