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  1. #71
    Senior Member knife eater's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paulbee View Post
    I don't get it eather. Perhaps he manged to chop off Hashirama's arm (and Hashirama regrew the arm). Apparently the amount of DNA required must be substantial.




    @Knife eater,

    I like to simplify things Logically, (and yes sometimes it doesn't work that way in Kishi's manga).

    Orochimaru's One Single Reason for becoming a Villain and doing everything he's done, is :

    To discovery the truth of the World (universe), and to learn all Jutsus
    . In other words, he wanted to become the SO6P.

    In order to do this, he labored hard first to Obtain Hashirama's cells, second to Obtain Itachi's Sharingan or body, third failing the second, he tried to obtain Sasuke's body.

    1) I would not have expected Orochimaru to aid Madara in acheiving the same goal that he had.

    2) If Oro had assisted Madara then Madara would not have said to Kabuto " You know the secretes of My body?, How could someone like you......."

    Spoiler!


    Obviously, Edo Madara has no knowledge of cooperating with Orochimaru, yet he does have knowledge of events up till when he died.
    (
    It seems Logically and Manga wise, they did not co-operate.
    I'm prepared for things to turn out as you suggest via route of logical simplification. I just have way too much fun with naruto when i can make complicated or convoluted ideas to push :p. What sticks, though, is kabuto's implied distinction, "IM his assistant" followed by, "but the fake madara"..

    It could just be a quirk of the translation but otherwise it is a hat tip to somebody.

    Another observation i made from your chapter link is that madara said the secrets of his body were contained in the secret uchiha tablet. I overlooked that detail before but does that mean the tablet is not only a historical record and account of secrets but is also a blueprint?
    _____
    Obito is Tobirama's great grandson. The proof is in the pudding.

  2. #72
    Mangaka Sharingan Foxhound's Avatar
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    It seems we are going to see something awesome in next chapter!!!
    Kabuto knows how to increase manga release rate
    Spoiler!

  3. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zero View Post
    ...

    Sure, you can change their clothes and all, but seeing as their wounds weren't healed previously, means that Oro didn't temper with them before, like Kabuto did. Not to mention that he didn't even know about the fact that the 4th cannot be summoned.
    A little backward off topic

    Since we found that the 4th sealed himself, i always though that, in the Orochimaru vs Sarutobi fight, the 3rd coffin was proven a great fail in the story, because Orochimaru was perfecting the Edo Tensei technique so he should know something like that, i don't believe that he was summoning them for the first time.

    Another fail in that sequence was Sarutobi who watched Minato performing the seal (and had learned from him), and doping all he could so that the 3rd coffin wouldn't be summoned and opened.

    Anyway, back to recent events, the fact the we don't know exactly when both Madara and Hashirama really died (in Hashirama case, in what event or state), is a great handicap to reach a unanimous guess.
    But i do believe that Madara was mortally wounded in VOTE and only survived using Izanagi, we see at some point that he had a sword crossing in body after the battle so, it would be difficult for someone without some (really good) healing ability (or help) to survive.

    I am really expecting to see one or two flashback chapters devoted to the VOTE battle, maybe soon if Madara explains what happened to Obito.

  4. #74
    Senior Member knife eater's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Majere View Post
    A little backward off topic

    Since we found that the 4th sealed himself, i always though that, in the Orochimaru vs Sarutobi fight, the 3rd coffin was proven a great fail in the story, because Orochimaru was perfecting the Edo Tensei technique so he should know something like that, i don't believe that he was summoning them for the first time.

    Another fail in that sequence was Sarutobi who watched Minato performing the seal (and had learned from him), and doping all he could so that the 3rd coffin wouldn't be summoned and opened.

    Anyway, back to recent events, the fact the we don't know exactly when both Madara and Hashirama really died (in Hashirama case, in what event or state), is a great handicap to reach a unanimous guess.
    But i do believe that Madara was mortally wounded in VOTE and only survived using Izanagi, we see at some point that he had a sword crossing in body after the battle so, it would be difficult for someone without some (really good) healing ability (or help) to survive.

    I am really expecting to see one or two flashback chapters devoted to the VOTE battle, maybe soon if Madara explains what happened to Obito.
    Ahhh right! I never before considered that. Sarutobi learned the dead demon seal when minato used it. He would know that the dead demon seal would take permanent hold of those bound BUT if he knew that then why was he worried the fourth hokage would appear in the edo tensei summon? I see, it does create a tatter in the logic sequence. I guess it depends on how well sarutobi knew the dead demon seal. Maybe he was equally as ignorant with it as he used it as orochimaru was when using edo tensei? I think that particular fight showcased that two old dogs had learned new tricks but had to learn as they went along. Actually, i think once sarutobi noticed that minato did not appear he realized the dead demon seal was the reason, once he realized that then he saw the technique as the answer when before he had no reason to. So the logic sequence remains intact and unbroken.
    _____
    Obito is Tobirama's great grandson. The proof is in the pudding.

  5. #75
    Senior Member Ducky76's Avatar
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    I've just though about it while lying there waiting to go to sleep (not that I'm a naruto addict or anything.. really.. I'm not!!). I think I have looked at it the wrong way specially when most people think and come up with great discussions why Obito would be lured to the dark side and really deeply into the dark side when, as a young man/boy, he had basically had the same ideals as Naruto about friendship and Konoha.

    What if he actually died some time after Madara helped him? Or what if Madara actaully took his body? In a way, it seems to make a lot of sense to me for Madara to use Obito's body and his knowledge about his short life regarding Kakashi and Rin and pretending to be Obito to wind up Kakashi than for Obito to pretend to be Madara and to assimilate or accept his ideals about world domination or eternal genjutsu..

    1. Madara was desperate for a body (and still is) to be able to carry out his plan of being immortal and rule the world and all he had was either Zetsu bodies or Obito's when he was trapped in his hideout.. and when Kakashi asked what he wanted, he answered "a perfect body"..
    2. I don't think Obito's personality, as what we have seen about him, would simply accept such a dark and grim future for the world.. he would probably kill himself before that happens (or Madara did it for him)
    3. Madara, based on the last two flashback chapters only, already knows more about Obito's life and his personality in such a short time..
    4. Tobi's knowledge about the uchiha's, his grand scheme of ninja world domination, being able to fight toe to toe Minato with just Tobi's T/S jutsu and almost winning.. being able to manipulate everyone and the bijuus.. wouldn't that be more Madara than Obito?
    When asked by Kakashi why he is doing this (as Tobi), he simply answered "Cause you let Rin die"?? Is this a pathetic excuse or something Madara would say to wind up Kakashi..
    5. Madara's body did die but transfered his essence to Obito's body that's why Kabuto was able to summon Edo Madara..
    6. Returning the fan to Edo Madara as that weapon did belong to that vessel/body rather than the Obito vessel..

    It just makes more sense to me Madara taking over Obito's body than for Obito to easily give in to Madara's plans and wishes even after his death..
    Last edited by Ducky76; 09-24-2012 at 10:59 PM. Reason: Grammar

  6. #76
    Yesss... Rlinfamous's Avatar
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    If Madara was actually literally inhabiting Obito's body, then there wouldn't be any need for dramatic flashbacks detailing Obito's life. Obito's hopes/dreams/moral purity are being built up to add depth/impact to Obito's inevitable fall into darkness.

    Obito is being shown to be a courageous failure who nevertheless had big goals and ideals. This set him up for Madara's speech about how, if there are winners, there is always a loser; Obito currently has accepted this view as part of his justification for creating a world of winners, just as Madara did.

    We're going to watch Obito's hopes and dreams slowly be crushed, eventually causing him to lose all hope for the future. In 602, even with half his body gone, Obito is still single-minded in his belief that he can protect his friends, that Kakashi will fill in for him and protect Rin in the meantime, and that all is not lost. Personally, I think his positive outlook is already fairly unrealistic, but Kishi wants to highlight Obito's faith/determination to keep the impact strong when Obito goes through more pain later.

    The main thing is that Madara / Obito view their own circumstances / disillusionment as a universal truth that applies to everyone; thus, it isn't so much that Madara failed, or that Obito was killed so others could live, or that Kakashi failed the mission Obito entrusted him with, or that Rin died... their main gripe is that all of human ambition is met with failure, people everywhere are killed so others can live, entrusted wishes are always failed, and reality inevitably allows innocent loved ones to die. So Obito isn't just start believing Madara out of depression, but rather in his hopelessness arrives at the conclusion that it was the imperfection of reality that allowed so much undeserved misfortune to occur. From there, Madara simply reveals that reality can be changed, and Obito agrees that changing reality is the right thing to do.

    It's still unclear why Obito felt the need to attack Konoha with the Kyuubi; perhaps weakening Konoha was necessary to complete the Moon's Eye Plan, or perhaps it was all to arouse suspicion against the Uchiha for the sake of isolating them from Konoha/facilitating the Uchiha Massacre. Perhaps Obito thought he could keep the Kyuubi once Konoha was destroyed, and already be well on his way to capturing all the Bijuu. I'm hoping Kishi addresses all of this in time; currently he's taking his time to explain Obito's corruption by Madara.

  7. #77
    Senior Member paulbee's Avatar
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    @Ducky76,

    Madara taking over Obito's body would be one way out of the Conundrum of making Tobi = Obito, as you know we have had a lot of angst and debate as to why it makes little or no sense without some extreme Tsukuyomi type ordeal.

    The problem is that Madara taking over Obito also has problems in that it is not a complete take over since Tobi has shown a personality type that is not consistent with Madara's personality.

    Further complicating matters is the implicit trust that Madara put on Tobi, this too is not consistent with Madara, except if:-

    1) Madara used a Very Powerfull eye jutsu to Utterly Brainwash Obito so that Obito has NO CHOICE but to obey and carry out the plan.

    or

    2) Obito became a full and willing convert, but even so it is unlike Madara to trust a convert.


    If I had to pick an explanation, I'd say : Madara Used Rin (killed her?) to break Obito's will, then He puts a fail-safe conditioning program inside Obito. that Failsafe could be as you say, a portion of his own Mental Energy. Obito in essence has a split personality. The Obito in him is the Norm, it runs the show, and is motivated by Rin's death, and Madara's dogma of creating a World only full of "Love". Then there is a more powerful but latent persona that acts as the Cop, and makes sure that the weaker Obito toes the line, and sometimes that More powerful persona surfaces and speaks as Uchiha Madara himself. So, when Tobi says the HE GAVE the Rinnegan to Nagato, it's that Latent Madara persona speaking. Also that Madara persona provides knowledge of jutsu's and fighting skills to Tobi.

    I don't really like complicated Psychological stuff, but I can't see any other explanations that make better sense.

    I am not perfect and I defy you to prove otherwise
    Growing Old Gracefully is an Oxymoron ... Mostly Moron !

  8. #78
    Senior Member Shock's Avatar
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    lol you guys put more thought into this manga than the mangaka does! I hope Kishimoto punks everyone with a simple explaination or something obvious lol. On topic though I would really like to see a genjutsu done by Madara! Imagine how rediculous that might be
    A pie in the sky?

  9. #79
    Yesss... Rlinfamous's Avatar
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    @Paulbee: I think it's fitting if Madara trusts his convert (and is betrayed), because I believe that's the situation with Obito and his own convert, Sasuke. Works for me.

  10. #80
    Senior Member knife eater's Avatar
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    D.Gray-man

    Since kabuto has ties with tobi atm, he contributed the edo forces afterall, but clearly does not want tobi to succeed. There is an obvious distrust and subtly bitter competition between them and obvious signs of backstabbing to come.

    IM going to reassert that madara and orochimaru had ties since they had potential to profit from each other within a certain timeframe. As paulbee says of logical simplification, i say madara gave orochimaru the hashirama DNA, and some if his own DNA among other things. What isn't clear is to what degree madara withheld information. It's entirely possible madara withheld many details of stone tablet, sage lineage, sharingan and his own moonseye plan. Orochimaru was clever and clearly would not want madara's plans to succeed so either way, no matter what information orochimaru had he would certainly backstab, betray, or what have you with madara as soon as they stop having reason or opportunity to benefit from each other. Orochimaru would certainly work out and hypothesize matters beyond what madara would share and beyond what madara would expect, hence hus words of amazement to kabuto.


    They are both villains in there own way and are expected to out villain each other at some point. So the simple angle here is madara takes hashirama cells, madara orchestrates the founding of akatsuki, orochimaru was a member of akatsuki, madara likely gave cells and material to orochimaru. Its easier IMO that someone already in possession of hashirama's cells would supply them to orochimaru instead of orochimaru laboring hard to obtain what someone deeply involved in the same organization as he already possesses. Yu

    I also think that it was obtaining the cells and conducting experiments on madara's behalf that prompted orochimaru to learn edo tensei instead of wanting to cast edo tensei prompting him to obtain the cells.

    I do sincerely ask this question... how would kabuto have obtained madara's DNA for the edo tensei? For me the simplest answer is that kabuto had it among orochimaru's leftovers that madara supplied him a long time ago. Otherwise there is no reason for orochimaru or kabuto to know where the living madara was or where madara's body would be after he died.
    _____
    Obito is Tobirama's great grandson. The proof is in the pudding.

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