Yep, pretty much. Although it's not as simple as it sounds, because ONLY Madara and ONLY him, could tell the difference between a real Hashirama and his Wood Clones. This basically means that Madara is more or less, the only person that ever scratched him, while the dude himself has self-healing power at top of it. So, yeah, only Madara could put a scratch on him, it had to be a big one at that, and Madara himself needed to be quick enough to catch that one drop of blood before it sinks in the wood... still, it's possible that "obtaining his power" entails more than that... I guess Kyubi's degeneration chakra properties were useful.
Funny enough with their bunshin and genjutsu capabilities, it would have been easy to fool everyone that they fought, while in truth they were relaxing in their self made hot-springs (you know, Hashirama would make the hole and water, while Madara would have heated it up ;P). Then they would erase all evidence, with their map-changing/cleaning jutsu .
Wanted to sneak into konaha, wanted to read the tablets, wanted to exact revenge on konaha and uchiha clan.
As for the weapons, yes, i think it is clue contributing to the idea madara split into separate beings, which also is helped along by the observations of old madara talking from a slightly different moral vantage point and having the eye that does not see through the masks used. It also helps that dragon ball had a character that did exactly what IM saying madara did. Piccolo was split into God and demon so to speak and the God, the morally less evil one was an old man! The fact these shonen mangas borrow from and repeat elements among each other means none if this idea is far fetched, overrated or too much something else. The whole thing with piccolo takes the already possible idea about madara and turns it into a likely one.
Nothing is being overrated or read too deeply into. It's speculation well within the scope of both reasonable theory and also the degree by which kishimoto works. IMO, people are not attributing ENOUGH significance to these details.
Obito is Tobirama's great grandson. The proof is in the pudding.
Interesting that the old Madara didn't have any spare eyes to fill his right socket. Is it then safe to say all of Tobi's collection of eyes came from the Uchiha massacre?
I would be legitimately pissed, but not surprised if THIS turned out being true: - Obito undergoes an insane transformation, right? Right! And during said transformation, he seems to grow a considerable amount. Aging, if you will. Madara is an elderly man. He says that neither of them could leave the cave the way they were. Did he steal/borrow/trade some of his life force, for some of obito's? Making Madara much younger, and Tobi/Obito, OLDER?! This would be stoopid, but I wouldn't be surprised if something similar turned out being the case
Something I was thinking about today: Orochimaru. He was forced to leave the village because he had been experimenting on it's children with the 1st Hokage's cells (this is what led to Yamato's abilities). It's entirely possible that he had been performing these experiments on behalf of Madara to find a way to infuse Madara with them. Orochimaru had a massive network of people later, enough for his own village, and the beginnings of that network could have easily helped Madara.
1) madara duped the shinobi world with his death in order to gain hashirama power/DNA/ whathaveyou. Akatsuki is formed by minds associated with and manipulate by madara. Orochimaru was a member if akatsuki and wad known to experiment with hashirama cells. Kabuto himself even made use of madara DNA! After seeing obito's flashback to his meeting with old madara, how then is it possible kabuto came in possession of madara's DNA if old madara was already in a period of concealment and secrecy? Kabuto said his super edo tensei was the result of "grave robbing" but how could he obtain madara 's DNA if madara was believed dead and in fact was alive and hiding( therevarw ways to answer that BUT THE SIMPLEST AND MOST LIKELY is that madara and orochimaru gad a working relationship deeper than what the manga has so far revealed.
2) kabuto said, "IM his assistant " do we really believe kabuto was tobi's assistant simply because he summoned some edo shinobi last minute and begrudgunglt revealed the methods behind edo tensei? Or do we realize that saying! His assistant " in the context it was spoken meant an obvious choice other than tobi. "His assistant " followed by "...but the fake madara" clearly indicate kabuto WAS NOT saying he was tobi's assistant but instead could only mean orochimaru's assistant.
3) orochimaru knows of a progenitor l, the human who knows everything. Such a figure would be connected to the secret history of the shinobi world that madara and orochimaru appear to know about in contrast to the level of ignorance most other shinobi seem to have.
3) while neither friends nor enemies, madara and orochimaru can clearly benefit from each other based on their professed desires but which one will be Victor since while their means comfortably overlap the ends ate incompatible and incongruous.
4) orochimar was the ONLY villain seen with nagato before and during the time nagato awakened his rinnegan. If old madara was confined to the mazo or risk sudden death then SOMEBODY had to deliver the rinnegan pair to nagato and pull it off with mind altering abilities to contaminate the memory of the event. Orochimaru is the most obvious choice to carry out madara's wishes in this regard.
Orochimaru and madara had so much to gain from each other and i find it hard to believe that orochimaru obtained hashirama material on his own when madara had to go through great lengths to get it. Both being tied to akatsuki, hatred for konaha, ultimate knowledge if their world, experimenting with so6p legacy,.. can you really say they had no meaningful connection or relationship?
Orochimaru left akatsuki when itachi joined or within that time frame. That's the timeframe when i believe the real madara died (furthermore itachi killed him IMO) and with madara gone akatsuki was subject to tobi's version of moon's eye plan. Orochimaru then recognizes discrepancies between the plan he was part to with madara and the new twisted directive of tobi. Orochimaru even said he did not agree with their goals and welcomed konaha shinobi to wipe out akatsuki.
The known prized subjects orochimaru had (Karin, juugo, suigetsu) are what kabuto later likened their abilities/lineage to some if the minor paths of so6p and orochimaru has very little in the way of knowing that without the information madara or a progenito could supply. The bloodlines as one being is what both orochimaru and tobi wished to realize and it's likely madara would have triggered the legitimate information to spur them both.
Its easy to find many elements that attach madara and orochimaru together. Its much harder to deny their link and justify the nonexistence of their relationship. They seem to have started out on the same page and worked in a period of syynergy but once tobi and itachi are fixed in the picture everything changed suddenly.
Orochimaru desperately wanted the sharingan. Why? It wasn't merely to copy and learn all jutsu. Orochimaru learned from his relationship with madara that sharingan can lead to rinnegan. Orochimaru must gave been tied to madara and learned that his eyes had achieved rinnegan, especially if IM correct in thinking it was orochimaru that put them in nagato on madara's behalf.
You are right in saying orochimaru conducted experiments on madara's behalf. He did many things on madara's behalf.
Again, i want to point out that itachi joining akatsuki and orochimaru leaving akatsuki coincide with madara's true death (that's my theory anyway). Madara dying is what eliminated any motivation or reason to remain in akatsuki because no benefits from madara remained and the break directive of akatsuki was different from what orochimaru had signed on for. I can go on tangents previously unheard of, the story is rich with elements tying madara to orochimaru.
orochimaru died before this war began. Ok, big deal? Then why would he have a scroll with information that could "change the outcome of the war"? It was said "orochimaru 's scroll", NOT "kabuto's scroll". The nature kishimoto used in portraying juugo and suigetsu's discovery of the scroll suggests orochimaru was prepared and waiting for the war. He could only have been privy to the war if he was part in the original plan with madara. It can be argued that the scroll is not associated with the war but i say this... juugo reacted to the presence of the scroll. If the reaction was natural energy based then the scroll most likely is attached or created from sage chakra (juugo's bloodline limit is utilizing natural energy without the use of sage arts). Orochimaru then says he has no interest in the war so... either that means the war madara may have planned is not in line with the war obito is conducting.
Oops, IM drunk, think i should probably shutvup now, sorry for long post :(
Last edited by knife eater; 09-23-2012 at 05:36 AM.
Obito is Tobirama's great grandson. The proof is in the pudding.
The reason I have come to question this is that even with Madara gone Hashirama still died young enough to leave the title of Hokage to his younger brother Tobirama. Who then managed to kill Hashirama if Madara had already vanished? If Hashirama came out of the VOE alive he must have been gravely wounded at the least beyond something someone like himself could even heal and may have died shortly after.
Madara also lived long after Hashirama had already passed so even if he didn't manage to gather what he needed at the VOE its possible that he could have had access to his body once he was in the grave, and before it wound up in Orochimaru's hands.
I like to simplify things Logically, (and yes sometimes it doesn't work that way in Kishi's manga).
Orochimaru's One Single Reason for becoming a Villain and doing everything he's done, is :
To discovery the truth of the World (universe), and to learn all Jutsus. In other words, he wanted to become the SO6P.
In order to do this, he labored hard first to Obtain Hashirama's cells, second to Obtain Itachi's Sharingan or body, third failing the second, he tried to obtain Sasuke's body.
1) I would not have expected Orochimaru to aid Madara in acheiving the same goal that he had.
2) If Oro had assisted Madara then Madara would not have said to Kabuto " You know the secretes of My body?, How could someone like you......."
Obviously, Edo Madara has no knowledge of cooperating with Orochimaru, yet he does have knowledge of events up till when he died.
It seems Logically and Manga wise, they did not co-operate.
I am not perfect and I defy you to prove otherwise
Growing Old Gracefully is an Oxymoron ... Mostly Moron !
Sure, you can change their clothes and all, but seeing as their wounds weren't healed previously, means that Oro didn't temper with them before, like Kabuto did. Not to mention that he didn't even know about the fact that the 4th cannot be summoned.