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  1. #11
    Katana swinging nutcase ChaosRising's Avatar
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    I got the impression from the progression of how Ighigo's zampakto's manifestation went from the old man to his inner hollow and the explanation that it was the state of Ichigo's emotions that dictated which one seemed to be in charge. I agree that the zampakto's wielder's reiatsu is what manifests itself into said zampakto. However regardless whether the reiatsu comes from a shinigami or a hollow, Vizard or Arrancar reiatsu is reiatsu.

    The difference to my understanding was in the nature of said reiatsu. However as each zampakto has it's own personality separate from the one using it with it's own reiatsu isn't it a reasonable leap that for shinigami it's an incarnation of their inner hollow they can tame, exist and fight with. Something that they may have been doing without realizing it? Considering that Arrancar, in order for them to create their own zampakto they have to compress a large part of their own reiatsu.

    We have seen hollows take the form of animals before, why couldn't Zabimaru be the formation of Renji's inner hollow? He said himself that Zabimaru wasn't that smart, the more base the hollow the more animal like it becomes. He's white, just like a hollows mask or Zangetsu (present, namely Ichigo' inner hollow) and we haven't seen the incarnation of any other zampakto but Renji and Ichigo's to compare them to. It's a fair leap.

    While we are on the subject of Renji's bankai, I don't remember in any of his fights Zabimaru ever showing any other levels of bankai. Renji could remove the reiatsu from the pieces of Zabimaru to protect it from damage. For that matter Zabimaru was in shekai form right up till Aizen tore Zabimaru to pieces. That last desperate attack sending the pieces of Zabimaru at Aizen wasn't bankai. Now we have seen first releases take on more than one form, other than Byakuya no one has shown a second form of their bankai. Kaname Tōsen showed 2 forms of attack while in shekai, Tōshirō Hitsugaya has also showed more than one form of attack while in shekai. However multiple bankai, I can't remember anyone else doing it.

    I do agree the expression that Byakuya showed at Ichigo's transformation was surprise, but can we really be sure he wasn't just surprised that Ichigo had achieved the transformation to Vizard? He showed the same look of surprise when Ichigo released his bankai. It seems many of the things Ichigo had achieved "surprised" Byakuya by this point in their fight. He did make a point of saying that he wouldn't "ask" about Ichigo's transformation.
    Last edited by ChaosRising; 07-25-2007 at 10:28 PM.


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  2. #12
    Veteran Member gdupninja's Avatar
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    the zampacto is also manifestation wielders personality
    for example rankigou is trying to achieve bankai but it is hard because her zampacto is as lazy as she is

  3. #13
    I think I know what your getting at. I don't think that shinigami's have an inner hollow. Ichigo has got hollow because he got his zanpaktou the same second he became a hollow. The vizards have got hollows because they went out of thier way to get it. Although you might be right.

    I might be wrong so please correct me if I am.

    Yeah Byakuya's headpiece is definalty a Kuchiki thing.
    O.o

  4. #14
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    The difference is that most of the Arrancar are some form of Menos, which means they consumed thousands of souls to get to that point (talk about identity crisis). Although the Menos that surpass Gillian have some sort of identity holding themselves together who knows if that is the identity of the original Hollow?

    Shinigami and Vizard on the other hand come from only one soul.

    Fighting Arrancar is like being outnumbered.

  5. #15
    Veteran Member gdupninja's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by catho View Post
    I think I know what your getting at. I don't think that shinigami's have an inner hollow. Ichigo has got hollow because he got his zanpaktou the same second he became a hollow. The vizards have got hollows because they went out of thier way to get it. Although you might be right.

    I might be wrong so please correct me if I am.

    Yeah Byakuya's headpiece is definalty a Kuchiki thing.

    yes head piece shows noble rank
    isee what chaosrising is trying to say but like you said vizards use forbidden technices to get their hollows .
    Last edited by gdupninja; 07-26-2007 at 07:46 PM.

  6. #16
    Katana swinging nutcase ChaosRising's Avatar
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    Yes, but if the hollow wasn't there to awaken in the first place, how would the Vizard get their powers? Shinigami and human alike can have their reiatsu taken by a hollow then what reiatsu is left turns them to a hollow. So my point remains, the duality exists within every being +/-, hollow/whole, yin/yang. Are you beginning to see where I'm going?


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  7. #17
    Couldn't be fucked Archiel's Avatar
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    So what your saying basically is that every Shinigami has the ability to become a vaizard or ultimately a hollow due to the fact that all spirits can succumb to the 'inner hollow'...if thats so then is is possible for some sort of cycle to establish.

    In the end it all depends on how the Vizards came to be, if they were all normal shinigami who were able to bring out their inner hollow then you'd probably be right, but I'd say the vizard are maybe subjects used by Urahara to test the Hougyoku to see if it worked and thats how it originated..


    If I'm wrong then sorry. i'll end up prob just editing it.

    Spoiler!


    Why don't more people read these mangas?

  8. #18
    Katana swinging nutcase ChaosRising's Avatar
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    Now you are starting to see where I'm going with this. High + reiatsu (shinigami) vs high - reiatsu (Hollow or Arrancar) hight +and- reiatsu= Vizard (or Sado, maybe) my point being that every soul having both + and - reiatsu can become a hollow, but only souls with high + reiatsu can become shinigami or Vizard. It's all concecture anyway at least until we learn more about the rest of the Vizard.


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  9. #19
    Couldn't be fucked Archiel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChaosRising View Post
    at least until we learn more about the rest of the Vizard.
    I hope thats soon, I really wanna know how they fit into all this, someone on this site made a comment about them being the Kings guard, or at least somehow related to them, would be interesting if it were true. I'm especially interested in Hiyori given the fact that she seems to be younger or at least the same as Hitsuguya (wonder if they knew each other)
    Last edited by Archiel; 07-27-2007 at 12:29 PM.

    Spoiler!


    Why don't more people read these mangas?

  10. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by ChaosRising View Post
    Now you are starting to see where I'm going with this. High + reiatsu (shinigami) vs high - reiatsu (Hollow or Arrancar) hight +and- reiatsu= Vizard (or Sado, maybe) my point being that every soul having both + and - reiatsu can become a hollow, but only souls with high + reiatsu can become shinigami or Vizard. It's all concecture anyway at least until we learn more about the rest of the Vizard.
    Wow, Bleach math FTW!!! Although based on some of the previous points, I am not sure I understand these points. But I will agree that conjecture/speculation aside, I hope the Vizards become an integral part of the Bleach world and that we'll out find more about them.

    I actually thought about the Vizards being the Kings Royal Guard as well. Whomever they are, I hope that they are badasses and that we get some new characters/stories in the Winter War Arc!


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