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Originally Posted by Yoru
Here is where I am at a philosophical dichotomy with you. In my eyes, there is a point that a Villain might cross, where they have gone too far for Redemption to be meaningful. And, the reason I didn't want Tobi = Obito in the first place was because Tobi has already passed that point, so it would have been better for Tobi =/= Obito in the first place.
Even if Obito had been completely brainwashed by Madara, the best he can do now is to regain a bit of some of his own personal honor if he were to somehow defy Madara and help the heroes. It would not make amends for the lives he's ruined. I do however admit that it would be a preferable outcome than if he goes down while still being on Madara's side.
Sometimes I think I totally miss the point where Kishi has all these people who turn "good" at their point of their death. Witness Itachi with Sasuke, or Nagato with Konoha. Never mind all the Evil they have done before they suddenly saw the light.
Is this "Redemption"?, well Maybe, but for me...Save the redemption. Do Good here and now, spare innocents the suffering you wrought before your eyes opened. Perhaps Kishi relies too much on the villain turns good guy just before he dies motif.
I am not perfect and I defy you to prove otherwise
Growing Old Gracefully is an Oxymoron ... Mostly Moron !
I think it's the whole theme he's gotten at throughout the manga where he says, "It's not how one lives, but how one dies that makes the difference."
Originally Posted by paulbee
I think Kishi is taking the story in a different direction. The build up was for Sasuke vs Naruto, but every since edo Madara entered the scene with his powers it kinda waters down the Sasuke vs Naruto IMO. I getting the feeling that reinforcements will show up and there will be some deaths, but Sasuke is going to show up and save Naruto.
I knew I was right about Madara's appearance. Since Kishimoto has cleared that up, I am now 100% positive that he has not forgotten things (Not that I ever doubted it before).
Great chapter. I got chills when he said,"they're probably...not okay." Words from thhe boss of the Naruto universe.
I also wonder why Nagato was so important. Why Madara entrusted the young boy of the Uzumaki clan with his greatest power.
I believe Nagato was the only one capable of sustaining the Rinnegan during the years it took for Akatsuki to gather Bijuu / prepare to initiate the Moon's Eye Plan. I think it's possible Madara himself was suffering from drawbacks of using the Rinnegan, and Obito would likewise have succumbed. Nagato's Uzumaki Life Force may have been the necessary component to handle the Rinnegan for decades. Similarly, Edo Madara has been boosted beyond where he was in his prime due to receiving a more complete integration of Hashirama's cells (via Oro/Kabuto), and can now fully wield the Rinnegan.
Originally Posted by janfeae
It's possible Obito's limitations are why he only transplanted a single Rinnegan and not both, although it's possible he has plans for the second (maybe for Sasuke, or maybe there's still another "Tobi" out there, although that's looking less likely). It's also possible that Obito merely wanted to keep his phasing ability as a sort of "Ultimate Defense" until he completed the Moon's Eye Plan.
@Mots: I also wonder how the Sasuke/Naruto fight is going to deliver compared to the feats we've seen from Edo Madara... however, let's not count Sasuke out just yet. He hasn't had a single fight to show his power, and his major arc in the war will be dealt with after this Madara/Obito business... the fact that Kishi is saving it must make it pretty epic!
There's no way Kishi wouldn't give us a final Naruto vs. Sasuke, and there's no way it won't be the most epic battle of the series... so I'm still keeping my hopes up.
I'll be waiting, be sure.
My view on villains is this:
Originally Posted by paulbee
There are villains who have already trepassed the line, and those who're still on their way to doing it. Obito is the firts, and Sasuke is the other one.
The second kind of villains, are still in time for actual redemption: i mean, turning good and living on. They posses means to forgive themselves what they've done.
The firts kind of villains is different: they did too much. They stepped too far from the path they used to follow, to the point where they completely betray their ideals and do really outrageous things, convinced they were doing the right thing: just look how Obito tried to kill a baby, manipulated Sasuke, tried to kill his master, killed many innocent people, started a war....many, many things a normal person would never forgive him because "he's not the same he used to be". But at the bottom of their hearts they're still innocent confused people: victims of some greater evil. Would you heartlessly kill a victim?
I'mconvinced that the only possible way to redeem themselves, for them, is to do it sacrificing their lives. With this act, they somehow make ammends for all the evil they did, and that no other act could make up for. Someimes death doesen't even seem enough to cover for their crimes, but that's all they can put on the line. Becoming good and living on has no sense here, since nobody would accept them back, after their misdeeds. Even the villains wouldn't be able to forgive themselves and live knowing what they did. Death is for them the only option, like a purification. we all saw nagato as a bad guy at first, and maybe someone hated him cuz he killed many great ninjas and kakashi...but when he died to revive everyone, i bet we all started liking Nagato. He redeemed himself in our eyes, didn't he?
It's important for those villains to perform a great act before death, to utterly demonstrate their change. Like someone pointed out, in the naruto world: "it doesen't matter how you lived, but how you die". Death is really the only chance for Obito to return being the hero with the sharingan we all knew and loved.
Paul, just looking at the poor boy obito facing madara i feel sorry for him. I bet after the flashbacks, we'll understand Obito's feelings and sufference...at that point i just won't be able to accept him dying like any other villain.
Bad feeling , tusnade seems will died in the next chapter... i think maybe she will save other four kages and then she has no more power to save herself...
I had always thought that Madara had died and his Sharingan/rinnegan had returned to a normal and that Tobi had transplanted those eyes into someone with strong Yang chakra in the hope that they would awaken a Rinnegan - not a sharingan. But that is out the window now seing that Madara was still alive. Nagato must have been important some other way.
Originally Posted by [JUiCE]
I see your point, but I am inclined to agree with Paulbee. There has to be a point where redemption is out of the question. And if it isn't Obito, then who is? The war already has already cost the lifes of more than 40.000 shinobi. And that's exactly why I was seriously hoping that Tobi isn't Obito, because it would mean that Kishi might try to sell us a strange tale about a misguided young man. Tobi was way more, he "used" hate for his own agenda.
Originally Posted by Yoru
Obito, on the other side, might even be misguided. The weird thing about him is not just that he became a villain, but why he became one. Nagato saw his parents die a pointless death, afterwards he saw his best friend die before his eyes. Many of us - at least I can - rather accept him becoming a villain than Obito, who as far as we can tell didn't have an exceptionally terrible fate. The explanation concerning Rin's death is just ridiculous and rather looks like an excuse than an explanation. That's why I am still having trouble with Tobi being Obito. And maybe we wouldn't like (maybe it's rather understand than like) Nagato if he hadn't been able to bring people back to life. Same with Chijo: Don't forget that it was her who sealed Shukaku in Gaara. If she had not been able to bring him back to life...
By the way, I have one question: Do we have any information regarding Edo-Tensei-Zombies being able to be Jinchurikis? Obito linked the former Jinchurikis to their bijuus by using some Gedou Mazo-chains, it wasn't a seal. I still assume Madara wants to seal the Juubi within himself. Maybe that's not possible as an Edo-Zombie. That would explain why he isn't too happy about being brought back as an Edo, although the advantages are obvious: he is now both immortal and indestructible, which he wouldn't have been if he had been brought back by the Gedou Rinne Tensei.
BTW, wouldn't Rinne Tensei revive him in the exact same condition he was before his death: old?
We can assume that Edo Tensei is broought back in the condition at which DNA was collected and that is from the VotE.
The other thing is that Madara stated that he had awakened the rinnegan shortly before his death. This is inconsistant with him meeting Obito in this world, since he gave his eyes to Nagato.
The other thing that bothers me is that he is shown dying in the VotE with a sword through his chests. Wouldn't his eyes become a desired item, which Hashirama should have destroyed? (That is, in the case that Madara hadn't already fired couple of izanagis)