Naruto 600 Discussion / 601 Predictions

[Execution]

@knife eater

You lost me after you suggested that Madara used Orochimaru to transplant the Rinnegan into Nagato. Why would Orochimaru ever give up a good pair of Rinnegan eyes once he got his hands on them? The eyes that would allow him to discover all jutsu his dream mind you. Not only that how did Madara still operate once he gave his own eyes to Nagato did he waltz around blind? This was before the Uchiha massacre there is no library of sharingan eyes to fall back on, Obito hadn't been crushed by a boulder yet, and his old eyes became blinded long ago when he used MS too much which was the entire reason he had to replace them in the first place so switching back wouldn't work he would simply be left in the dark unable to do the things that Tobi was said to do like control the Mizukage. Sorry but you didn't fill any of the still blatant plot holes.

[aggeroff]

@knife eater

You lost me after you suggested that Madara used Orochimaru to transplant the Rinnegan into Nagato. Why would Orochimaru ever give up a good pair of Rinnegan eyes once he got his hands on them? The eyes that would allow him to discover all jutsu his dream mind you. Not only that how did Madara still operate once he gave his own eyes to Nagato did he waltz around blind? This was before the Uchiha massacre there is no library of sharingan eyes to fall back on, Obito hadn't been crushed by a boulder yet, and his old eyes became blinded long ago when he used MS too much which was the entire reason he had to replace them in the first place so switching back wouldn't work he would simply be left in the dark unable to do the things that Tobi was said to do like control the Mizukage. Sorry but you didn't fill any of the still blatant plot holes.

Which plot holes is this series aren't blatant out of curiosity?

[Execution]

Which plot holes is this series aren't blatant out of curiosity?

Sneaking the 4th Hokage's face onto the side of the mountain when he wasn't even Hokage yet was kind of subtle.

Spoiler!

I didn't even notice it until someone said something about it.

[knife eater]

@knife eater

You lost me after you suggested that Madara used Orochimaru to transplant the Rinnegan into Nagato. Why would Orochimaru ever give up a good pair of Rinnegan eyes once he got his hands on them? The eyes that would allow him to discover all jutsu his dream mind you. Not only that how did Madara still operate once he gave his own eyes to Nagato did he waltz around blind? This was before the Uchiha massacre there is no library of sharingan eyes to fall back on, Obito hadn't been crushed by a boulder yet, and his old eyes became blinded long ago when he used MS too much which was the entire reason he had to replace them in the first place so switching back wouldn't work he would simply be left in the dark unable to do the things that Tobi was said to do like control the Mizukage. Sorry but you didn't fill any of the still blatant plot holes.

Forget i mentioned orochimaru at all, its a separate theory to do with the level of involvement they had with each other.

First, after giving up his rinnegan it's obvious he replaced his eyes. As for who they originally belonged to, do we need to have that answered right now to make things work? I even asked yesterday in "ask a question" thread. Asked everybody who's eyes do they think madara used after gifting his
Rinnegan. We don't need that answered yet and the simple fact the answer isn't available YET doesn't qualify it as a plot hole! As a reader you have to have common sense with matters which demand safe assumptions. Its a safe assumption madara got new eyes. Why would suggest or mention the stockpile as if it were the only source? Convenience of quantity does not restrict madara to only those selections. BTW, Ms is not needed to manipulate the mizukage. It can be done a number of ways including a 3 tomoe sharingan.

An unanswered question does not equal a plot hole. The framework by which you present the problem is dependent upon a single suggestion which is actually unnecessary and actually misleading.

Madara used a different set of eyes, anybody with half a brain would assume that.

A stockpile of post massacre sharingan is not a sole source for eye replacements , especially in the case for madara.

Show me a gaping plot hole.

[knife eater]

Sneaking the 4th Hokage's face onto the side of the mountain when he wasn't even Hokage yet was kind of subtle.

Spoiler!

I didn't even notice it until someone said something about it.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plot_hole

Really? While meeting most requirements to qualify as a plot hole it is really just a drawing mistake. It has no bearing on the outcome and nothing to do with obito being tobi.

[Execution]

Hmmm.....Perhaps I have been approaching this the wrong way. I can sit here and argue with you about why I feel something could not be possible, but it has no purpose when even I can recognize that it may have the smallest chance of happening no matter how unlikely. After all even I can admit that Nagato somehow got his hands on Madara's Rinnegan or a Rinnegan of Madara's possession. Arguing what if's will lead no where. Rather than focus on why something is impossible based upon incomplete information I think it would be more productive otherwise. At this point perhaps you are right shouting plot hole without receiving an explanation from the source doesn't make it so no matter how unfavorable the outcome may be. I suppose I'll hold my reservations on that for a situation if Kishi should fail to adequately explain the situation regarding Obito and Madara. Because until then it just becomes pointless bickering.

[knife eater]

Hmmm.....Perhaps I have been approaching this the wrong way. I can sit here and argue with you about why I feel something could not be possible, but it has no purpose when even I can recognize that it may have the smallest chance of happening no matter how unlikely. After all even I can admit that Nagato somehow got his hands on Madara's Rinnegan or a Rinnegan of Madara's possession. Arguing what if's will lead no where. Rather than focus on why something is impossible based upon incomplete information I think it would be more productive otherwise. At this point perhaps you are right shouting plot hole without receiving an explanation from the source doesn't make it so no matter how unfavorable the outcome may be. I suppose I'll hold my reservations on that for a situation if Kishi should fail to adequately explain the situation regarding Obito and Madara. Because until then it just becomes pointless bickering.

More than fair, mate. We just see things differently and have different findings in our appraisals of possibilities and likelihoods.

For the record, though, tobi claimed he gave nagato rinnegan within the timeframe of claiming responsibility for several other madara exploits. Since its true madara did this things then the conclusion i draw is that madara was responsible for nagato possessing rinnegan. I reinforce the idea with the fact the manga revealed that madara knew of nagato when still just a "brat" and initially thought he was ressurected by nagato. The masquerade claim by tobi and proven link between madara and nagato tell me it is anything but unlikely madara volunteered or gifted his rinnegan to nagato.

As for the next set of eyes madara used, what protects this area of detail from plot hole status is that everyone knows and is a given fact that its well within madara's power to take almost any set of eyes he wants be they living or dead, cooperative or resistant.

Discussion isn't always bickering, i like and appreciate your posts and welcome you to argue what you please. My mind has been swayed several times already through the convincing arguments of others. I denied the obito theory almost the entire time, using all the common complaints we see posted even until now, since tobi's first appearance. When 596 came out i began to rethink things after a pro obito post in these forums. I reread kakashi gaiden and chapters enclosing 500. Overnight i joined the obito chorus. So, don't stop arguing

[aa26i]

not up to the expectations. was hoping to have at least 25 pages (in total there were 15 pages only) or something more interesting than the same flash backs again n again. Kishi really didn't make it looks like 600. kind of filler it i remove the Madara entrance.

Kishi has to fill many many plot holes now. wonder how and when..

"The story enters its final conclusion" means more talking is coming.

[Execution]

More than fair, mate. We just see things differently and have different findings in our appraisals of possibilities and likelihoods.

For the record, though, tobi claimed he gave nagato rinnegan within the timeframe of claiming responsibility for several other madara exploits. Since its true madara did this things then the conclusion i draw is that madara was responsible for nagato possessing rinnegan. I reinforce the idea with the fact the manga revealed that madara knew of nagato when still just a "brat" and initially thought he was ressurected by nagato. The masquerade claim by tobi and proven link between madara and nagato tell me it is anything but unlikely madara volunteered or gifted his rinnegan to nagato.

As for the next set of eyes madara used, what protects this area of detail from plot hole status is that everyone knows and is a given fact that its well within madara's power to take almost any set of eyes he wants be they living or dead, cooperative or resistant.

Discussion isn't always bickering, i like and appreciate your posts and welcome you to argue what you please. My mind has been swayed several times already through the convincing arguments of others. I denied the obito theory almost the entire time, using all the common complaints we see posted even until now, since tobi's first appearance. When 596 came out i began to rethink things after a pro obito post in these forums. I reread kakashi gaiden and chapters enclosing 500. Overnight i joined the obito chorus. So, don't stop arguing

The Obito=Tobi revelation really threw me off I just wasn't expecting it at all when it happened. Typically I like to keep an open mind about these things and try to accept new possibilities when they are presented, and hold my own views with at least some degree of skepticism. Unfortunately I think that somewhere down the line I ended up becoming a little to overzealous with my beliefs and disregarded other opinions.

I did a little self reflecting and realized that I have been somewhat venting my frustration with the recent chapters through my posts and it's not something that I agree with so I'm sorry if I came off as a little rude. It's pointless to go against what Kishi has already said to be true timeline discrepancies or no Kishi has already decided on the plot and I should have some faith that he will make it work complaining about it solves nothing. I like to keep things civil for the most part and discussion doesn't have to end in argument but if one side is unwilling to yield to some degree things can get unpleasant.

I think that I'll try this again a little bit more open minded this time.

I wonder how long Orochimaru got away with doing experiments to the people in Konoha. If he had actually been performing these experiments since Nagato and the others were still children and he was dealing with Madara he could have provided Madara with Sharingan at that time. It just seems unlikely that Madara would have collected them from other Uchiha after the war ended which was around the time he took his brothers eye's. Not to mention that after he did take Izuna's eye's they greatly resented him for it. If he was found to have stolen more eyes from his clan he would likely have been ousted by them much earlier, and after he abandoned the village there wouldn't have been many other opportunities to collect them. In this way Orochimaru could have been an inside man that gave Madara his replacement Sharingan, but I doubt he would have simply pass eyes as rare and valuable as the Rinnegan on to Nagato willingly.

[Zero]

Sneaking the 4th Hokage's face onto the side of the mountain when he wasn't even Hokage yet was kind of subtle.

Spoiler!

I didn't even notice it until someone said something about it.

Well, Minato's statue could have been explained with a little stretching, but the crack on Hirzuen's face, which it got after Oro x Sand attack, is obviously a fail (you can see how it goes through his nose ;P).

Forget i mentioned orochimaru at all, its a separate theory to do with the level of involvement they had with each other.

First, after giving up his rinnegan it's obvious he replaced his eyes. As for who they originally belonged to, do we need to have that answered right now to make things work? I even asked yesterday in "ask a question" thread. Asked everybody who's eyes do they think madara used after gifting his
Rinnegan. We don't need that answered yet and the simple fact the answer isn't available YET doesn't qualify it as a plot hole! As a reader you have to have common sense with matters which demand safe assumptions. Its a safe assumption madara got new eyes. Why would suggest or mention the stockpile as if it were the only source? Convenience of quantity does not restrict madara to only those selections. BTW, Ms is not needed to manipulate the mizukage. It can be done a number of ways including a 3 tomoe sharingan.

An unanswered question does not equal a plot hole. The framework by which you present the problem is dependent upon a single suggestion which is actually unnecessary and actually misleading.

Madara used a different set of eyes, anybody with half a brain would assume that.

A stockpile of post massacre sharingan is not a sole source for eye replacements , especially in the case for madara.

Show me a gaping plot hole.

I'm not sure, Kabuto mentions to Madara the he and Oro had to theorize about Senju, Uchiha, and how to combine them into Rinnegan. If Oro had cooperated with Madara, would there be any need for that ?

Seeing as brat isn't a newborn, it really looks like Madara survived those (about) 4 years after the Kyubi attack, the time he met Itachi (I have already presented an example to why he even had to see the Tablet again, even though he has seen it long ago).

We still don't know who, or how Itachi's mentioned girlfriend that he killed looked like ... she couldn't have been... no oh come on that would be sick and somehow stupid ...

The problem with MS, is that it's rare. What's more it wasn't confirmed why it's rare. Is it because of the user or of the eyes itself ? If we assume that it's the user, then giving any normal pair of Sharingans to Madara, a true Sage of the Sharingan, would make any eyes evolve to MS (doesn't seem the case). Then if we assume that the eyes itself need to hold the potential, then this would explain why there are only few MS and at the same time it would explain why Kakashi was even able to achieve MS.

If I would have to guess whose Eyes Madara have used, assuming he gave his own to Nagato, then the answer would have been Uchiha Kagami, since he is the only Uchiha mentioned at that time-frame. Not to mention, I need to mention that each of Danzou's eyes has their own history, which means he gained them over time, this would mean that gathering some eye might have been hard the in recent 40 years.

A gaping plot hole, eh ? Hmmmmm, well the DATABOOK and the MANGA seem to contradict each other. For both of them to make sense, Obito (and Rin, not to mention others) would have to bee about 4 years older than Kakashi, for them to be at the same Genin team after graduation from the Academy, seeing as Kakashi graduate at age 5 (according to Databook) while Rin and Obito at age 9 (according to Databook). On the other hand if they were of the same age, then Kakashi at age 6 would have been already a Chunin, while Rin and Obito for another 3 years would still be in the Academy. Not to mention that for the first to make sense, Kakashi would have to be quite a mutant to be as Big, while beign 6 year old, as a 10 year or even older kids at the presented Chunin Exam, not to mention at the Academy entrance .

What's more, even though they all seem to be of the same age at entrance, their age vary and strongly, I think (inconsistence between Databok and Manga). I don't have the databook, but for example, if the age at Narutopedia is correct (it seems to correspond to Databook), then even though Hayate was there with everyone at the entrance, his deceased age is, at part 1, - 23, while Kakash's age at part 1 is 26-27. If we assume that Kakashi was 4 years old at the entrance, then Hayate would have to be 3 years younger, thus 1, just LOL . From there you can go to other people as well.

So as you can see there are tons of mistakes and that is only at Kakashi's generation, just imagine how much more of them are for other generation and the like :p. Not to mention that I even notice someone with Uzumaki Clan Police symbol ;P, although this could have been explained...


Really, people, you are basically saying that the number of people that Obito lost isn't enough. What the hell are you saying ? A loss isn't something that can be appreciated through share numbers, it's a personal thing, it's value depends on how much you cared for the person you lost. Sasuke lost his clan while he was like, 4 years old ? This means that he has about half a year of memories with them, that's not much, not to mention he didn't have that many happy memories with his family, mainly with his brother. Then we have Obito, who have spend with Rin about 9 years of his life (assuming that they were 4 at Academy entrance and 13 at his supposed death). It is probably similar for Nagato, what really shook him was the loss of his friend in a cruel way, which he spend more time bonding than with his real family.

Not to mention that as long as there is someone for you there, the chance of you overcoming a tragedy and loss are that much bigger. For example, if it wasn't for Iruka, Naruto most likely would have released the Kyubi at Konoha again (at beginning of the series, although the case with 4th is very similar). While Obito didn't have anyone like that, no he was probably dragged down even further in to the depth of abyss by Madara.