Naruto 598 Discussion / 599 Predictions

[Lakritze]

Thank you very much. You'd be surprised how many of these "Tobi isn't Obito" arguments are foiled by what should be common sense. If this argument comes up again I'll try to find that pic that shows how Obito's scarring matches up to Tobi's.

My my, what's going on that you start insulting each other over a Manga? This Obito-Tobi-argument seems to be a personal thing for some of you. It's a manga, you know, pure fiction. It's entertaining, but no reason to consider everyone but oneself brainless.

As to the "Tobi-is-Obito-discussion": Actually, I wouldn't like it, but until now, Kishi could sell us anything:

• A 120 feet (or whatever) fox can be imprisoned within a little baby.
• It is possible to have five hearts (Kakuzu), to be composed of water, to fly, to create meteors out of nothing...
• In Narutoverse, nobody seems to care for sterility when it comes to eye-transplantations - at least Shisui didn't.
• ...
• But when it comes to Tobi being Obito, everybody claims to have logic on his side.

I'm going by feats we have "seen." You may be the type who is convinced by a line of dialogue and that level of comprehension is fine. But some of us need something more. Minato's foes were ordered to flee on sight. We've all heard stories about Minato's skill but we've never seen anything canon. He had one, single fight with Tobi who nearly killed him. Minato's only feats in that contest were being faster than his opponent. Nothing else. If you honestly expect me to believe that I would see one battle with Minato where the only skill he showcased was high speed movement, and for me to automatically place him above players like Pain, well I've never been that stupid.

No reason to be impolite, man! To be honest, I can't follow your interpretation, either. If Minato's life was at stake only once, it was while Tobi tried to suck Naruto's dad into the - as we know now - Kamui-dimension. Yet Tobi couldn't land one single blow. I rather had the impression that Minato could have killed Tobi, if the fight had dragged on. Beyond Kamui, we haven't seen any jutsu that would mean a threat to Minato, or anyone else. Seriously: He is currently throwing knifes and Big-Mama-shurikens. If Kishi wants to convince me of Tobi being at least an Uchiha, I would have to see one single fire-jutsu. And whoever Tobi might be, it will be a bit of a stretch - be it crushed-Obito, theoretically long-dead-Izuna, a clone-zetsu-DNA-creation (yet if that were the case, who would care for what his face looks like?).

What's a bit strange: To you really die once you get sucked into the Kamui-dimension? Clone-Naruto seems to be just fine. OK, you are imprisonned, you may starve to death, thirst might become a little problem after a couple of weeks. But I don't quite get why it means death? Maybe Kakashi should have used Kamui on himself just once. Who knows who he might find...

[POW]

Since when did you think I wasn't taking talking points from Aizen and Madara?

On topic: Is there anyone here who can pose an intelligent argument as to why Obito isn't Tobi or at least Tobi's dad? You all have proven incapable of such but we have some-time before next week's lackluster reveal where Tobi is revealed to be Obito only to have half this forum lying and saying "Oh they called it."

Obito's dad seriously? May as well make him the Ramen shop guy no it is character who has significant connection to one of the major players in the story.

The obvious flaw everyone in the Obito theory over looks is gap in intelligence between Tobi and Obito. Sure a persons personality can change but their basic traits carry over even if their demeanor changes. Look at any character who has gone through a major personality shift and note the difference.



Gaara - Started off as being mentally unstable and blood thirsty but he was always a fairly intelligent and competent fighter able to plan 1 step ahead and respond to situations quickly. Hes also centered around the concept of love.

* He changed by letting go of his anger and hatred but his basic traits are the same. He's still a no nonsense type intelligent fighter who thinks a few steps ahead.

According to the databook(s):

Gaara's hobby is battling and cultivating cacti.

Gaara wishes to fight Sasuke Uchiha and anyone, if it is for the sake of his village

Gaara's favourite words are, in the first and second databook, "love for oneself" (自愛, jiai), and in the third databook, "affection" (慈愛, jiai) and "future" (未来, mirai).

Sasuke - Even as a child he was fiercely determined from living in his brothers shadow and spent many hours after school training to surpass him and was even top of his class a genius.

* After the Uchiha massacre his fierce determination was fixated on anger and revenge but its basically the same traits he had before still a genius with strong sense of determination.

According to the databook(s):

Sasuke's hobbies are training and taking walks.

Sasuke's favourite word is "power" (力, chikara)

Nagato - As a child he was serious minded and only wanted to protect his friends and keep the peace and to grow up.

* After Yahiko's death his friend took Yahiko's dream and ran with it and even used his power to protect the Rain village and try and bring peace to the world in his own way thinking himself grown into a god.

According to the databook(s):

His hobby was practicing ninjutsu.

His desired opponent was anyone in order to protect his friends.

- Now look at characters who's personalities remains the same even after growing up.

Orochimaru - He was a detached genius never to personable or attached to people and was more fascinated with jutsu and developing his skills. Tsunade even said as child Orchimaru gave her the creeps and she never felt to close to him. He was trying to find answers like how he heard the story of the white snake from Sarutobi.

* As an adult Orochimaru's genius detachment from humanity went even further and his obsession with finding answers through jutsu continued.

According to the databook(s):

Orochimaru's hobby is creating techniques.

Orochimaru wishes to fight those with techniques that can be used in the future.

Orochimaru's favourite words are "destroy" (破壊, hakkai) and "chaos" (混沌, konton).

Jiraiya - The original "Naruto" of the village who seemed to lack talent as a child but had excitable clumsy nature and girl obsessed mind.

* His girl obsession became a perverted obsession and his excitable clumsy nature remains.

According to the databook(s):

Jiraiya's hobby was sneaking a peek into a Women's Bathing House.

Jiraiya's favourite phrase was "Free and uninhibited" (自由奔放, Jiyū Honpō).

The basic traits people carry like being a skilled strategist or being clumsy or serious minded carry over even if their demeanor changes.

Obito wasn't a genius strategist or skilled at manipulating people with just words. He was clumsy yet determined but considered his team mates first and foremost! Very much like Naruto he cared about his bonds.

According to databook(s):

His favourite words were "teamwork" (チームワーク, Chīmuwāku) and "comrade" (仲間, Nakama).

Not too mention the whole good character turned bad has been done before in Nagato and he was redeemed. When Naruto was confronted by Tobi in snow country he said Nagato may have gone about it in the wrong way but he truly desired peace but you are different referring to Tobi and he agreed.

The whole point of Minato sealing the Kyuubi in him was because some one so dangerous that he might be a threat to the who shinobi world. Tobi is not a character who seems to be redeemable much like Orochimaru he seems like a true villain who left behind his humanity long ago.


Team Work Concepts

- Kishi uses team work concepts when designing characters so that the "Team mates" make up for the weakness of the other teammates. Hashirama was calm and steady much like a tree that brought the stability while Tobirama was Passionate and strong spirited.

Nidaime Hokage (二代目火影, Second Fire Shadow)
Konoha, Hokage

Wild fighting spirit! The raging fire of a man who inherited the Shodai's will!

The Shodai's younger brother who made a great contribution by establishing Konoha as a system. In contrast to his calm older brother, he worked towards fulfilling his goals with great passion. He took pride in his superior combat skills.

- Madara was arrogant and unyielding look at how he negotiated with the Mu & Onnoki in the flash back it was basically strong arm tactics obey they Leaf because I say so. Izuna before his death probably softened this a bit by bringing charisma and skilled manipulation. Where Madara brought the force and power Izuna brought a more gentle touch


Tobi fits the bill on Izuna's personality not only that his sense of determination and self sacrfice with lines like "I am no one" & all that matters is complete the Eye/Moon plan.

His older brother, leader of the Uchiha losing his eyesight: a literal synonym of "ruin" for the clan. Izuna chose himself to present his own eyes, without hesitation, without a word. An act tantamount to suicide for an Uchiha, as they owe their fame to their doujutsu...

-The shinobi at the Uchiha founder's side. He sacrifices his light for the sake of his clan.

Clearly Izuna was goal oriented thinking about the big picture more than himself by sacrificing his eyes for the clan. Hence Tobi's "I am no one" he has no interest in fame and recognition or arrgonatly thumbing his nose down at everyone in some over the top fight the way Madara does with the 5 Kages. Tobi is only interested fulfilling his goals same as Izuna.

Anyone want to comment on the implications of this page, if Tobi is actually Izuna?

Spoiler!

Izuna may have really died and been brought back by Madara considering Izuna sacrificed everything for his brother and the clan. Madara's death was not a surprising thing considering how all the other Edo guys who died in battle where shocked and confused to be summoned from the dead. Madara was fully aware he was dead and expected to be revived as it was part of larger plan.

That suggests Tobi was entrusted with Madara's revival another indication he is someone Madara is close too.

I'll say this again as I must always repeat myself. What I am saying to you, and follow me, is that we've seen Tobi's Sharingan when he teleported. We've seen panels that zoomed in on his eye and it was a regular three-tomoe Sharingan. Far be it from Kishimoto to know anything about consistency, but it was not until just this recent chapter that Tobi revealed he could use Kamui. However, and pay attention here, we've seen Tobi use his space/time jutsu dozens of times, we've even seen close-ups of his Sharingan and not once has he ever used Kamui until but recently.

Kishi was not going to show you his MS and reveal important details but we know it can be activated and deactivated at will so there is no confusion. You only see his eye close up when hes standing still and talking making a serious statement.

[almara]

i think you are correct POW, tobi isnt obito, it wouldnt make sense if he was, izuna is a better fit and they do seem to have a somewhat close relationship, not that im saying that it is izuna the person, it can easily be izuna's body that has been manipulated in some way, like being made of zetsu parts and infused with parts of madara's personality or, as ive said earlier, he could easily be some1 we havent even heard of yet, hopefully we'll get an answer on wednesday.

[Hardcasex]

Guys, guys lol. The whole point is that Tobi has been around for a while. Obito has not. Take Sarutobi. Do you see how old he was? The resurrected Madara. Did he look older than that, or even close? He was still young. Even still, theoretically he would have died before Obito was even born. but once again, regardless of Madara's actual age, Tobi has been around for some time based on his appearances in the manga. Before young Obito was born, and definitely before adulthood if he was alive. Like when he confronted Kisame, and revealed the secret behind the Mizukage. Tobi was a man, taller than Obito, and recognized as Madara Uchiha upon removing his mask.

Also, what about all of my other points?

When did they show Tobi around at a time before Obito was born? The 4th Hokage sealing the 9 tails into Naruto happened long after Obito supposedly died.
Again to reiterate my last point. His power would explain volumes even in terms of his age. Maybe his sharingan can traverse space at less of a cost than it would time. Its possible he can move to different parts of time(within a limitation) with a cost to his body as most strong sharingan powers seem to have.Kisame didnt recognize him as Madara.....he recognized him as the Mizukage. Kisame knowing his identity still has mystery around it as does Mist Villages role in this overall. With everything Tobi said to Sasuke about the history of how Leaf treated the Uchiha clan its clear that Tobi has a skewed view on historical events. He's obviously telling the story from an outsiders perspective possibly as something someone else told him or some other second hand knowledge. My point being Obito could of learned this stuff at some point,did something extreme with his Sharingan Power causing him to Age.

[sage-of-snakes]

1. There are two Tobis.

This is pretty obvious. Ninjas don't randomly change their haircut, so the long-haired Tobi who controlled the Third Mizukage and attacked Konoha is different from this one. It is very likely that he was actually Madara.

2. The current Tobi is Obito

The current Tobi was first seen in Shippuuden, when he joined Akatsuki. This explains the time inaccuracy.

3. (Possible) Izuna's eye could use Kamui

The question remains: if the long-haired Tobi was actually Madara, why could he use the Space-Time ninjutsu of the current Tobi? I think it is possible that not only Obito has Kamui. Uchiha may be distinct between two groups: ones that awaken Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi, and ones that awaken Kamui. It is possible that Izuna was from the ones that could awaken Kamui, and after his eyes were transplanted, Madara could use it as well. Possibly Obito is related to Izuna somehow, it would explain why Madara took interest in him.

4. (Possible) Long-haired Tobi was weakened during his fight with Minato, and possibly died because of it.

We really don't know the circumstances around Madara's death. If the long-haired Tobi was Madara, maybe he was already weakened during his fight with Minato, and maybe he got even weaker after it and died.

[Sirxxx]

I see the thread has been flooded again :-/

Anyone else expect that the tentacle Bee lost in this chapter will actually be some sort of tentacle bunshin, similar to when Sasuke cut one off? I'd like to see that play a role in the fight. Losing a limb like that seems to careless for Bee, especially when he caught the other shuriken so easily, even if the point was to show Naruto's cool partial transformation (Kyuubi Head Susano'o).

It might be the real deal, but losing tentacles doesn't seem to faze Bee at all. He appears to be able to grow them back (since he still has eight despite his initial bushin to trick Sasuke). I'm hoping Bee will go on and do something about the Gedo Mazo while Tobi is busy dining upon Rasengan.

He is an enigma, wrapped up in an theory, shrouded by mystery. Kishi has all of us in his genjutsu right now. Bankai, I wish I had a better answer, but due to what Kishi has shown us thus far he could be a character we do or don't know. Kishi is known for throwing curve balls at us, but the next couple of chapters should put this ongoing debate to an end.

There's your answer! Some of the theories that you guys are tossing into the wind here--time displacement, Oil of Olay anti-aging jutsus, siblings of SIDE CHARACTERS with whom we've never had any mention, gene therapy, dna swaps, growth spurts, FREAKIN' HAIRCUTS--are you'll even reading what you're posting anymore, or just doing gold-medal worthy mental gymnastics to maintain your point...

[Temperjoke]

I see the thread has been flooded again :-/



It might be the real deal, but losing tentacles doesn't seem to faze Bee at all. He appears to be able to grow them back (since he still has eight despite his initial bushin to trick Sasuke). I'm hoping Bee will go on and do something about the Gedo Mazo while Tobi is busy dining upon Rasengan.



There's your answer! Some of the theories that you guys are tossing into the wind here--time displacement, Oil of Olay anti-aging jutsus, siblings of SIDE CHARACTERS with whom we've never had any mention, gene therapy, dna swaps, growth spurts, FREAKIN' HAIRCUTS--are you'll even reading what you're posting anymore, or just doing gold-medal worthy mental gymnastics to maintain your point...

Well, my theory was just having fun, since everything was going absolutely crazy.

[Aga bomBa]

- Sasuke kills Orochimaru, one of the legendary Sannin. Sick though he was it really doesn't mean a thing

- doesn't mean a thing?? If Orochimaru wasn't sick at all, sasuke wouldn't be even able to win in his dimension..

Minato's only skill is in his speed

- you're callin us all kind of names for not " understanding " Kishi's writing/story, but REALLY ?!?!

" Minato's only skill is in his speed ? " --> If we don't understand it, then you're not even CLOSE, hahaha. His only skill is in his speed, dude.. come on

take down foes far more dangerous than Minato ever was

- " Far more dangerous " than Minato ever was.. Besides Pain and Itachi, which of the other Akatsuki's are FAR MORE dangerous than Minato?

Minato's SKILLS are all of high-level; his intelligence, speed, ninjutsu's, sealing.. you could also say that his analyzing skills are on pair with Itachi's.


** It's funny how some people got immediately cofused when Tobi mentioned about Kakashi standing infront of graves etc.. just ask yourself one question; WHY wouldn't he know about it?? So far; Tobi KNOWS EVERYTHING! What has happened in the past during Senju's/Uchiha's/ Elder-Younger/Rikudou/Juubi/ Uchiha's massacre/Kushina's birth of Naruto, and the list goes on and on.

- Right after the battle between Naruto and Sasuke at the VOTE, Zetzu popped up; meaning that Tobi had marked Sasuke and Naruto from the beginning. Sasuke for being his vessel and Naruto for the Kyuubi--> both of high interest in Tobi's plan. So, how does he know about Kakashi's free time?? Very simple; Zetzu has been spying on everthing for Tobi ( hence, why couldn't he do it himself at some points; he could teleport inside Konoha without being noticed ).

Kakashi was the mentor of Sasuke and Naruto + Tobi came to understand that Obito was his friend and that Kakashi's sharingan belonged to the same person, from which he got his own eye. Tobi is creating mental pressure on Kakashi now, just like he did with Naruto by " having a talk with him " etc. On top of that: this is also a way how Kishimoto brainwashes us and trying to mislead us 2 chapters before the BIG GLIMAX is gonna happen.

And ooh yea; It seems like " Zero " has two accounts


Just one of my previous post for telling why I think that Tobi isn't Obito:

- Guys; I said it last week in the discussion thread: I still believe that Tobi is one of Madara's Rinnegan's Izanagi creation or Izuna.

So, we all know, that blood is an important thing between the Uchiha's.. the reason why I believe that Tobi can use Kamui in an advanced version compared to Kakashi's, has to be linked to the blood. I believe that Tobi has half Uchiha blood and other half being made of Zetzu. I think that Kakashi can only teleport stuff away from distance, because he isn't related to the Uchiha's.. even if he knew from the beginning that he could do what Tobi is doing.

Then, I was thinking: Lets say it's Izuna with Obito's eye ( I gave last week, lots of information why I think that Tobi is more of Izuna's calibur then Obito:

- his perspective of life in the shinobi world
- world domination
- his intelligence and knownledge about the shinobi world
- his believe in his big brother ( Madara ) for achieving the goal what he promised to do, but eventually failed to accomplish.. simple put: sacrificed his eyes for "nothing" ).

Izuna Uchiha:
Birthday: February 10th
Blood Type: O
Height: 174.8 cm
Weight: 55.9 kg

Obito Uchiha:
Birthday: February 10th
Blood Type: O
Height: 154.2 cm
Weight: 44.5 kg


--- look at that Blood Type: they both have type " O ".. shortly after Obito's death, the second Kyuubi was executed. So, we all know that someone of Minato's level, would have sensed/felt that he was fighting his student, right?

Look at Stats of Tobi;

Height:175 cm
Weight:55.9 kg

Izuna's height os 174.8 and has the same weight as Tobi's: 55.9.. is this coincidence?? When Tobi ordered Pain for capturing Naruto and his fight with Minato, they were all on these kind of heights, so it's hard to believe that Obito himself grew 20 cm and having this kind of mature posture right?
I would love to see, that Tobi is indeed.. Madara's creation with his Rinnegan's version of Izanagi, if he's not: it's more suited for him to be Izuna then Obito.

[Zero Phoenix]

Obito's dad seriously? May as well make him the Ramen shop guy no it is character who has significant connection to one of the major players in the story.

Couldn't be the Ramen guy. He was tending to his shop when the Kyuubi attacked.

The obvious flaw everyone in the Obito theory over looks is gap in intelligence between Tobi and Obito. Sure a persons personality can change but their basic traits carry over even if their demeanor changes. Look at any character who has gone through a major personality shift and note the difference.

So what you're saying is, Obito couldn't be Tobi because as Obito as a child was dumb and Tobi as an adult is intelligent. Mmmmm k?

Kishi was not going to show you his MS and reveal important details but we know it can be activated and deactivated at will so there is no confusion. You only see his eye close up when hes standing still and talking making a serious statement.

You must have missed the part where I explained that Tobi's STM is different from Kamui.

1. There are two Tobis.

This is pretty obvious. Ninjas don't randomly change their haircut, so the long-haired Tobi who controlled the Third Mizukage and attacked Konoha is different from this one. It is very likely that he was actually Madara.

2. The current Tobi is Obito

The current Tobi was first seen in Shippuuden, when he joined Akatsuki. This explains the time inaccuracy.

3. (Possible) Izuna's eye could use Kamui

The question remains: if the long-haired Tobi was actually Madara, why could he use the Space-Time ninjutsu of the current Tobi? I think it is possible that not only Obito has Kamui. Uchiha may be distinct between two groups: ones that awaken Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi, and ones that awaken Kamui. It is possible that Izuna was from the ones that could awaken Kamui, and after his eyes were transplanted, Madara could use it as well. Possibly Obito is related to Izuna somehow, it would explain why Madara took interest in him.

4. (Possible) Long-haired Tobi was weakened during his fight with Minato, and possibly died because of it.

We really don't know the circumstances around Madara's death. If the long-haired Tobi was Madara, maybe he was already weakened during his fight with Minato, and maybe he got even weaker after it and died.

You sir are the only person apart from myself who has made a reasonable argument.

- doesn't mean a thing?? If Orochimaru wasn't sick at all, sasuke wouldn't be even able to win in his dimension..



- you're callin us all kind of names for not " understanding " Kishi's writing/story, but REALLY ?!?!

" Minato's only skill is in his speed ? " --> If we don't understand it, then you're not even CLOSE, hahaha. His only skill is in his speed, dude.. come on



- " Far more dangerous " than Minato ever was.. Besides Pain and Itachi, which of the other Akatsuki's are FAR MORE dangerous than Minato?

Minato's SKILLS are all of high-level; his intelligence, speed, ninjutsu's, sealing.. you could also say that his analyzing skills are on pair with Itachi's.

It's amazing how he's never shown any of this outside his battle with Tobi. Again, I'm asking for feats. Barely defeating Tobi doesn't count as one. Pain has feats. Itachi has feats. Even Naruto has feats. The only thing you can do is say oh Minato can do this and Minato can do that. K. Show me.

Tobi is actually Obito's secret older brother who was too ill to be a ninja. After Obito's death, Tobi was filled with rage. Madara approached him and infused him with the 1st Hokage's cells, which restored him. Madara then gave him Obito's other eye which miraculously undamaged, despite the fact that the rest of his body was crushed, but since Tobi never unlocked his own MS, the pattern didn't change.

That actually makes more sense than the Izuna theory.

so who is tobi

Konoha's Reckoning

Of course you conveniently Miss the part where the ONly recorded Pattern Changes are Superimpositions of patterns at EMS. There is No Manga Evidence of any other Uchiha MS Pattern Changes.

There is No Justification, No evidence given anywhere in the Manga, to expect any kind of Pattern Changes besides EMS superimpositions. SHOW ME.

Are you serious? Madara, Itachi, Sasuke, and Kakashi all have different MS. We see that each and everytime they us a MST. Deductive reasoning would preclude all Uchiha who unlock the MS will have a different patten. If Tobi wasn't Obito he'd have a different MS. Are you really that desperate you're asking me to prove what's common knowledge? Oh let me guess, next you're going to say, "Prove to me that Naruto knows Kage Bunshin! PROVE IT!!!!!!!!" Gee I don't know boss, you might have me on that one. I guess you'll then want me to prove the Kyuubi has nine tails. Someone find this cat some panels that show them with different MS. I for one don't have the patience to argue something that should be common sense at this point.

[Zero]

@Zero
Kakashis MS does indeed deteriorate just like Itachis did. Remember the conversation between kakashi and Itachi when they were about to fight, Kakashi said something like "Tell me Itachi, how much have your eyesight deteriorated?" implying that he knows full well how an actual MS works, and he could only know that from his own experience while using it.

I'm pretty sure that he figured that out from Kisame's comment: "Using that eye is risky even for you", well something like that. You don't have to be a genius to guess that it has it's drawbacks... and that it has something to do with eyes/brain itself, as Itachi mentioned that only a non-Uchiha have a body-type drawbacks... plus, Kakashi was sending body parts, Rasengans, missiles, kunais and arrows moving at high speed and people hundreds of meter away from him, if his eyesight was getting worse naturally and even faster from using the eye, then how come he had such a great accuracy up to this point ? I would even say that his accuracy went up.

Itachi even praised Kakashi, that he was able to deduce so much just from a single encounter... but the moment Kakashi mentioned the last thing, suggesting that he awakened the MS, Itachi's reaction... was it simply impossible; or was it impossible, unless the donor awakened MS beforehand (otherwise as you mentioned Tobi could have awakened all others MS, but he didn't because only the original owner can, although it later can be used by anyone, as shown through Shisui's Eye example), thus it would mean that Kakashi's eyesight would have to be deteriorating for 17 years in total already and much quicker in the last 2-4 years.

Itachi was almost blind after using MS for 7-8 years. Shisui was already using his MS (supposedly) at the 3rd great ninja war, until the moment he committed suicide (about 6-8 years), then the eye was transplanted to a Crow, which was usable even after another decade by Danzou and the Crow (16-18 years in total). Sasuke was blind in a matter of weeks/months (?), because he overused it like crazy (well, Kakashi used it more than 10 times already as well, I think ;P).

And ooh yea; It seems like " Zero " has two accounts

...no... just no, even if it is a joke .

So what you're saying is, Obito couldn't be Tobi because as Obito as a child was dumb and Tobi as an adult is intelligent. Mmmmm k?

You must have missed the part where I explained that Tobi's STM is different from Kamui.

It's amazing how he's never shown any of this outside his battle with Tobi. Again, I'm asking for feats. Barely defeating Tobi doesn't count as one. Pain has feats. Itachi has feats. Even Naruto has feats. The only thing you can do is say oh Minato can do this and Minato can do that. K. Show me.

I guess your first point is correct. Naruto went from "Intelligence" stat point 1 to 3 in three to four years. It doesn't really seem to be impossible for Obito to go from 1 to 5 in 17-18 years... I'm not counting the Kyubi attack because there wasn't much intellect used in it. It was mainly possible thanks to the info that the Seal weakens at birth, while all other things are just one jutsu that sometimes feels too hack, yet somehow it is still reasonable .

You too must have missed the part in the recent chapter that Tobi called his jutsu Kamui, or at least admitted it to be the same jutsu (he might have called it differently up till now).

LOL, you do realize that the first time Kishi showed Itachi using an MS jutsu (he even mentioned that he is going to use MS ;P) on Kakashi, he didn't show his Mangekyou Sharingan on presuppose as well ?