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  1. #901
    Quote Originally Posted by Gameboy View Post
    A summary and updated essay against the supposed non-recovery of Obito's body and the possibility of its use as Tobi/Madara's shell)

    One more thing, like i said, since kyuubi attacked after the Obito incident, that means IF madara used obitos body, he must have let it decompose. And also, how could he control kyuubi with a crappy sharingan?



    The Tobito theory, or "Tobi is Obito" theory claims that Obito's body is being used by Tobi/Madara as a shell/container.

    This claim with all its evidence, basically rests on the assumption that Obito has survived or his body was taken by Madara and used as his container.

    In this essay, I will argue that it is least likely, if not impossible, that Obito may have survived and/or that his body may have not been recovered by Konoha but was taken by Madara to be used as his container.


    THE OVERWHELMING EVIDENCE STRICTLY BASED FROM FACTS IN THE MANGA:

    At Chapter 244 page 19, the last panel of the Kakashi Gaiden, we can clearly see Obito's tombstone where Kakashi laid down flowers and Obito's goggles.
    evidence:
    Naruto 244 page 19 | One Manga

    "If Kakashi found it important to retrieve Obito's goggles, then he would have retrieved Obito's body also. Of course, the body of Kakashi's friend,comrade,and savior would be of greater importance than his goggles."

    Surely we will have noticed that Obito was not wearing his goggles anymore as he and Kakashi went to save Rin and confront the rock nin. He was not even wearing the goggles when those rocks fell on him. So it is possible that his goggles and body may not be at the same location where the rockslide happened.

    But the main argument here is that Kakashi VALUED his friend so much that he even retrieved his goggles. Would he not value the body of his friend and savior who was buried underneath a rubble of rocks? Would he allow his comrade's body to rot on enemy ground? Surely he would retrieve it! If you have a friend who gave his life and his eye for you, would you care enough to retrieve his body? I don't think you can live with yourself knowing that you left your friend to die and even did not bother to give him a proper burial. That is sick. As Obito and Kakashi would say, "Those who don't take care of their comrades are worse than trash!"
    obito:Naruto 242 page 07 | One Manga
    kakashi:Naruto 8 page naruto_v02_ch008_024 | One Manga

    This is arguing merely on the basis of bonds, or valuing friends. This is notwithstanding the fact that Obito's body is the body of an Uchiha, who is naturally a carrier of the secrets of the Sharingan bloodlimit. Kakashi's sharingan is proof enough that the body of an Uchiha could be "exploited" in order to acquire the Sharingan and not only to understand its weakness. Hunter nins (or for Konoha, the ANBU) is tasked to keep/defend the secrets of the village. This is maybe also why Kakashi became an ANBU commander after this incident. As a matter of principle and of duty, ANBU would never leave Obito's body under that rubble of rocks. (See further argument and references below.)

    If this argument is sound, it can be accepted as confirmatory evidence to the fact that in the KG, all the main characters behaved in such a way that heavily suggests that Obito has INDEED perished in that mission.

    A recap of the FACTS:

    (1) Kakashi Gaiden clearly states the cause of death: Obito was crushed twice by falling rocks.

    first rockfall:
    Naruto 243 page 12 | One Manga
    Second rockfall: Naruto 244 page 10 | One Manga

    (2) Obito himself said he was dying.

    Obito: "It looks like it's over for me. The right side of my body is almost smashed. There is no feeling in it."

    Naruto 243 page 13 | One Manga
    Obito:"I'm already going to die."
    Naruto 243 page 17 | One Manga

    (3) Rin, a medical ninja, affirmed that to be the case, thus she agreed for the high-level eye transplant medical jutsu.
    Naruto 243 page 17 | One Manga

    (4) Yondaime confirmed Obito's death, and apologized for coming in too late.
    Naruto 244 page 17 | One Manga
    (5) Konoha gave Obito a hero's burial in a tomb/memorial that Kakashi frequently visits.

    Additional evidence to this is the text which says,

    "Two heroes carrying the Sharingan were born to Konoha. One of them has his name written on the tombstone. One of them, afterwards, made the name of Sharingan Kakashi become famous even as far as other countries." (chap.244,p.18-19)

    Naruto 244 page 19 | One Manga

    The mention of "tombstone" means that it was indeed a grave that it marks: Obito's grave.


    All these evidence put together give us a high degree of probability a little short of absolute certainty that Obito has indeed died and was buried in Konoha.

    On the question whether the tombstone indeed marks Obito's grave in Konoha or if it was only a fallen heroes' memorial, please compare

    Naruto 139 page 09 | One Manga
    Naruto 244 page 19 | One Manga

    At ch.139,p.9 is the first ever mention of Obito in the manga. His name was mentioned in the context of the ceremony for Sandaime Hokage's death. It is worthy of note that here Kakashi and Hayate's girlfriend are at the same place [in front of the fallen heroes' memorial] to honor the memory of their loved ones; while the rest of Konoha is at a different place, at the ceremony for the 3rd Hokage. It suggests that the village people is at the grave of the Hokage while Kakashi and Hayate's girlfriend are at the memorial. This gives us evidence that aside from the heroes' memorial there would be a grave for individual shinobis also. Also note that the epitaphs [or texts on the stones] at chapter139 and chapter244 looked different from each other. They may not be the same, after all.

    The 3rd Hokage has indeed said that the heroes' memorial was a cenotaph (from Greek, kenos "empty" and taphos "tomb"). A cenotaph is a tomblike monument to someone buried elsewhere, especially commemorating people who died in a war. (from Oxford American Dictionaries for Mac OS X, 2005)

    See Naruto 139 page 05 | One Manga

    In other words, the one at chapter 139 is a heroes' memorial while the one at chapter 244 is indeed a tombstone, a grave marker. This gives us the conclusion that Obito has a grave aside from having his name on the heroes memorial.


    Even if Obito's body has not been buried, it is most likely that it has been burned/destroyed --according to Blast-- in accordance to the hidden village rule to dispose bodies that could be exploited by enemies to reveal the secrets or the weakness of the clan or the village. This principle is affirmed by Kakashi in the Zabuza-Haku vs. Team 7 arc about hunter nins, a.k.a. body erasers, disposing of the bodies of Shinobi that contain many secrets. See Naruto 16 page naruto_v02_ch016_174 | One Manga
    Naruto 16 page naruto_v02_ch016_177 | One Manga


    Be that as it may, Kakashi did believe that his best friend Obito really died; and that he died as Konoha's hero. Proof to that was a statement he made about the fallen heroes memorial during the survival "2-bells" training of Team 7. The fallen heroes memorial is also proof that all of Konoha believed that Obito died as a hero.
    See Naruto 8 page naruto_v02_ch008_016 | One Manga


    Sure it was not shown that the Konoha shinobis or the ANBU recovered Obito's body from under the rubble but the fact that Kakashi visits his grave/memorial in Konoha and it was not just a memorial for missing-in-action nins. That "excavation" scene is not anymore necessary.

    Obito was not even missing-in-action; he was killed-in-action. Obito's teammates know exactly where his body was crushed by the falling rocks, and in honor of his heroic death (he saved Rin from the enemies and Kakashi from the rockfall and probable death) they gave him a proper burial. That would be the least they could do for a friend, hero, and honorable shinobi who offered his life for his friends and his mission.




    With the overwhelming evidence for Obito's death and the complete absence of any suggestion in the manga that Obito has survived or that his body has never been recovered,

    it is very much unlikely, if not downright impossible,

    that Tobi's body is Obito's.


    Tobi and obito have similarities, but those were revealed to be nothing more than coincidence or a red herring, due to the two following events in the manga:

    Tobi said he's Madara and Pain, Konan, and Zetsu all acknowlede this. This deals a severe blow to the Tobito theory, since it most likely means that he's indeed Madara at least in mind/soul. His body is still up for grabs, but with this it becomes extremely unlikely that Madara isn't at least the one controlling the body.

    Pain reveals the fact that one of his bodies has the power to revive dead bodies since the three bodies trapped in Ma's and Pa's genjutsu were somehow revived. This gives a mean to bring the ancient Madara back to life. Viable, since Pain and Madara already have been shown to know each other. In addition, if Pain is indeed Nagato or Rikudou, than that means that he would have been around prior to the Kyuubi being sealed as well.

    This is currently the only revival method we know of that Pain/Madara would have access to; they have shown no other. Thus, until proven otherwise, this is the most likely method through which Madara would have been revived. Unfortunately for Tobito theorists, this doesn't require another body and would just revive the actual Madara. So, he wouldn't be Obito in any form
    Thus, as of now, the most likely scenario is that Tobi is indeed Madara in the flesh and blood.

    As for everything else....

    Why Madara still has the mask: He's facing Team Konoha right now... He's not stupid enough to give away his identity to them and reveal the fact that he's still alive to Konoha, after he's bothered to keep it secret for however long. And so he keeps it on; to conceal his identity from Team Konoha.

    The battle: Madara has the potential for being the ultimate final villain. He caused practically everything in the manga, by cause and effect, by summoning the Kyuubi. He caused everything in the main protagonists life because of that and caused the death of his father. Not only that, but he's also the founder of the Uchiha clan, laying the basework for a connection with Sasuke, the idea of which was first introduced during Sasuke's brief convo during the Kyuubi.

    Thus, Madara has connections to both main protagonists and can easily be the force that brings Naruto and Sasuke back together and reunites them in one final battle. To me, that really sparks my interst, at least more than some flashbacks and such that we would get from Kakashi fighting Tobito.

    Kakashi Gaidens's Relevance to the Main Plot: Uh, no. It's not really that releveant. That's why it was a Gaiden, a side story, and not just a flashback or something in the actual story. If it was going to be mega-important to the actual plot, it would have been introduced there. But it wasn't, and was instead introduced in a Gaiden. So, it's chance for relevance with the rest of the plot is actually quite low

    The bolts: Tobi wears them at his waist when he says he's Madara and they are no longer on his arms. This proves that they don't serve any puprouse of holding him together or any such thing, since they're so easily movable.

    How Obito could have been revived segment: They still would have no way to know where Obito was... What would they be doing there? Why would they suddenly start moving boulders randomly? And they just happened to beat the Anbu team that surely would have been sent to destroy Obito's body and keep the secrets of his Sharingan hidden

    Not to mention, why would they bother even if they did find him? Far too much speculation required, which isn't needed if Tobi just is who he says he is, as I explained in my quoted post.

    The mask: Oh god, there are any number of possibilities for this... Madara could have lost his eye in his fight with Shodai, has a super-Sharingan as his left eye which must be covered to avoid chakra wastage, just wears it because it's what he found, the mask working as a trap to draw people into his Sharingan because of the spirals, whihc wouldn't work with two eyeholes, ect.

    Not to mention fighting with one eye doesn't seem to be a problem for ninja... Kakashi does it, Baki does it, Dosu does it, Danzou does it, ect; it really just doesn't seem to be a problem for them, so why not?

    The personality: Tobi was just a facade that Madara created so that he could get close to Sasuke and get some first-hand knowledge of his progress without him recognizing him (thus, the complete make over). The personality was a part of this. Tobi's personality is not his real personality, which is clear in 364. The video even admits this, so I don't know why it used it as a point.

    Zetsu was just playing along/was fooled by Madara's persona and honestly belived he was a boy.

    Name: Since Tobi was just an alias that he made up anyway, yes... Unless Dan and Danzou are the same people and Danzou is also Hanzou... Or Tobi is really a Sarutobi... Really, the name thing clearly means nothing.


    if anyone disagrees, explain why and back up your statements with evidence. Thank you for reading.
    Note: I have alot of homework from school ( 11th grade is tough ) so i might have repeated some stuff because i might have forgot that i mentioned something already, so please excuse me for that.
    woww!!!!!!!!!!!superb theory i'm your right hand man

  2. #902
    But pls can u xplain y tobi has only one sharingan eye? dats another important factor too

  3. #903
    i think pain would soon plan a coup against madara because he keeps blabbing about him been a GOD and acquiring all the bijuus to bring peace to the world.wat do u tink?

  4. #904
    i think madara is under konoha's nose....
    checkout chapter 327 page 9...i think kishimoto left a clue on who is madara....

    that guy's name btw is namiashi raidou...

    then check 396 and 397 where tobi partially unmask....(i know the scars on 327 is towards to the left while tobi has scars towards the right....but that raidou guy and tobi have the same hair)

    another connection is the crows....itachi (an uchiha) uses crows as genjutsu...and raidou used crows to distract hidan and kakuzu on chapter 327...

  5. #905
    Initiate Ryo~in~a~Bocks's Avatar
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    I'm sure this point has already been made, I'm too lazy to check because there were already 62 pages of replies before I found this topic. So I guess if it has been said, this is a reminder-

    Whether Madara is using Obito's body or not, it's definitely Obito's body at the very least.

    Point 1 - The mask. One eye hole, right side, Kakashi got Obito's left eye.
    Point 2 - The entire right side of Obito's body was crushed. We say scars on the right side of what we saw of Tobi's face. There are pins on the right side of Tobi's body. I'm not sure what pins would help with one's body being crushed, but they're there.
    Point 3 - The name Tobi. It's obviously somewhat derived from Obito somehow.
    Point 4 - Kakashi Gaiden. Why would they grow through the trouble to make 3 chapters about Kakashi, Minato, Rin and Obito just to show how Kakashi got his Sharingan? They could've just explained it in a much simpler way. Masashi Kishimoto obviously wanted to say that one of the characters coming up had a connection with one of the characers from Kakashi Gaiden. This point also explains why I don't believe that Kakashi is dead, because there are things involving him that haven't been resolved.

  6. #906
    Senior Member kuroihikari's Avatar
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    Point 1- which means right side=crushed=should be no sharingan.
    Point 2- Doesn't make any sense. Both of his hands seem to be working just fine, for one.
    Point 3- No it doesn't. Japanese doesn't work that way.
    Point 4- Kakashi Gaiden also introduces us to the power of Yondaime and Kakashi's feelings toward teamwork. That and the origin of the Sharingan is enough reason to make the Gaiden.

    Also, Madara didn't have problems with helping wipe out the Uchiha, I'm sure he could've easily found a more suitable body from there, rather than rummage through the rocks for a half-crushed body.

  7. #907
    Veteran Member Rift's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryo~in~a~Bocks View Post
    I'm sure this point has already been made, I'm too lazy to check because there were already 62 pages of replies before I found this topic. So I guess if it has been said, this is a reminder-

    Whether Madara is using Obito's body or not, it's definitely Obito's body at the very least.

    Point 1 - The mask. One eye hole, right side, Kakashi got Obito's left eye.
    Point 2 - The entire right side of Obito's body was crushed. We say scars on the right side of what we saw of Tobi's face. There are pins on the right side of Tobi's body. I'm not sure what pins would help with one's body being crushed, but they're there.
    Point 3 - The name Tobi. It's obviously somewhat derived from Obito somehow.
    Point 4 - Kakashi Gaiden. Why would they grow through the trouble to make 3 chapters about Kakashi, Minato, Rin and Obito just to show how Kakashi got his Sharingan? They could've just explained it in a much simpler way. Masashi Kishimoto obviously wanted to say that one of the characters coming up had a connection with one of the characers from Kakashi Gaiden. This point also explains why I don't believe that Kakashi is dead, because there are things involving him that haven't been resolved.

  8. #908
    Japanese does work that way O Bi To are three different parts to his name. you can move them around and drop the O and you get To Bi.

  9. #909
    金太郎 Bucek's Avatar
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    I highly doubt it could be Obito. Right side of his body has been crushed by rock, so both right arm and right leg plus right eye should be useless. The only persons I consider as Tobi is Danzou - Have no idea how he gained Sharingan, possibly after Uchiha clan wipeout and thats the reason why he ordered it, Izuna (Madaras brother) - He can live if Madara lives, Madara himself or some sick, random ninja with stolen sharingan after Uchiha wipeout whom thinks that he's Madara.

    Edit: You can find it possibly in Databook #3 that Tobi took his name from Tobirama - 2nd Hokage.
    Last edited by Bucek; 02-19-2009 at 06:59 PM.

  10. #910
    Another thing is: What was some of Madara's secrets, that he apparantly kept "even from Itachi" What secrets was he referring to?

    http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/397/10/

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