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  1. #41
    I'll be waiting, be sure. Yoru's Avatar
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    Answers to paul. From Obito to Tobi!

    Quote Originally Posted by paulbee View Post
    I think this would be the best part of it all


    =====>

    For me, I am something of an Idealist. It gives me no pleasure whatsoever to see a good guy like Obito go from Kakashi's new friend, to a fiend that wants to end the world. IOTW I find it difficult to accept that Obito would mentally and emotionally Turn into Tobi. Good guy turns into Major bad guy. This is a very Cynical and pessimistic change that doesn't sit too well for me.

    Questions:

    ) Obviously, Tobi has Got Obito's Face, but Does he have Obito's mind. Did Madara subject him to Tsukuyomi until he was fully converted to the dark side? Or is it someone else merely using Obito's Body?

    2) Kisame saw Tobi's face Twice, and each time acknowledges him as Madara, Obviously Kisame (and everyone else) knows what Madara looks like, so was that Sarcasm by Kisame? At the very least, it means that the face Kisame saw when Yagura was controlled must be the same face he saw on Tobi after Sasuke Joined Akatsuki. This is wherer the Timeline seems messed up.

    Yagura
    Spoiler!



    At Akatsuki
    Spoiler!

    3) Obito, even with Zetsu parts should still not be able to go toe to toe with Yondaime (Yeah he did, let's not deny it). So then is this More Tsukuyomi training, or is it someone else?

    4) Controling the Kyuubi...This should be possible only to someone with MS (NOT JUST ANY SHARINGAN). Well, so Tobi gains the MS within 1 yr. It's doable.

    Spoiler!


    My Tentative conclusion is that Tobi could be Obito if He was extensively modified with Tsukuyomi and with Zetsu Parts. There is a problem with Tobi being Obito (literally), if you consider Timelines, where Yagura is controlled by Tobi/Madara/Obito, who has the same face as someone not yet born.

    Hoo boy. I'm getting a Migraine just thinking about this,
    Ok Paul, I'm planning to give you a big and exhaustive answer:

    0. Tobi/Obito isn't trying to destroy the world, or kill all people. He, in his own way, wants to put the world to peace. If he manages his Moon Eye Plan, there will be no wars, no deaths, no disappointments, no responsabilities. In an illusionary world everyone will be able to live their own dream and they'll be safe from all Pain. In other words, we can say Tobi is trying to save others from the Pain he had to endure once, and aditionally he wants to put his shattered heart to rest in this sweet, endless mirage. If you look at him, at Obito Uchiha...he seemed to be a failure from the very start: nothing he tried to achieve came true. He couldn't confess his feelings to Rin, he was beaten by everyone, he didn't become hokage...on the brink of death he finally thought he found someone that would carry on his greatest dream: protecting Rin and making her happy. He was convinced that this one, only time, he wouldn't be disappointed because Kakashi has always been something, he, Obito wanted to become. He had strenght, so nothing was impossible to him, in Obito's eyes. But that dream has been shattered too, in a milion pieces, when Kakashi let Rin die, while he survived. We don' know the details, but Kakshi may be at fault here. Maybe he didn't follow his heart, myabe he hesitated...who knows? Then just imagine he meets madara who tells him he can create a world where there is no need for dreams, because you can have anything you want right away: no regrets, no pain, only happiness and fulfillment. If I were Obito, a great failure from the beginning till the end, i would be tempted by such a proposal. I see Obito/tobi as an anti-hero: an anti Naruto: they were the same: emarginated, not gifted and they failed everytime but had the determination to stand up and go on. Obito tho' was hurt one time too much, unlike Naruto, who, too was on the verge of becoming an antagonist. In that instant when Iruka acknowledged him, he saved naruto from the darkness Obito fell in. Otherwise he would have just put on a mask, called himself Kyuubi and he would want to crush the village that made him suffer so much...then, filled with great void, he would want to put his emotions to death, in order to feel good at least. As in naruto/sasuke's case, even naruto/Obito's roles could have been inverted now.

    1. My bet here is this:
    Madara Uchiha has been observing Obito for quite a long time. I assume he had fun spying on his clan since he left, in order to see what would they do without him. Then he sees this little boy, Obito. The boy is a big fuss and is the clumsiest uchiha Madara has ever seen. However he has a strong will and many dreams. Madara, already hardened by his own experiences, observes as his ambitions fail step by step. From the beginning he sees him as someone who will be easy to manipulate. Obito wanted to be hokage huh? I bet that impressed Madara too: an uchiha who at least wanted to ascend at the top ranks, to power, like he once wanted to do. In a certain sense he recognizes his ambitions in this boy. Then Madara sees Obito's final wish expressed before being crushed by the boulder. If the wish weren't fulfilled, obito would surely fall into despair and he could then use the darkness in him to manipulate him. He then himself arranges Rin's death. kakashi is strong, but if Madara plans something, a small ninja like him cannot do anything. Suppose in the meantime, the recovered Obito has no right leg and right arm, so he can't move...and he's barely alive. He needs to recover in the meantime. Madara then, collaborating with orochimaru, creates Zetsu, and with this he can heal Obito. Then he tells havhim about the death of rin and stuff, so Obito awakens MS. Obito might have wanted to challenge kakashi, or even kill him in revenge, but Madara said that he has a better plan, and reveals him the futility of reality and how much better would be to live in the mugen tsukuyomi. Then he puts him under genjutsu (something like Tsukiyomi that can make you spend countless days in a blink of your eye. In that period he trained him hard, within the illusion, he showed him everything about his past, his techniques, the secrets of the world and then training training and again training. The illusion might have been a bit too intense for obito, or madara made it that way on purpose, so that obio would begin considering himself madara, while retaining his base memories and motivations. Like this, he would be able to play Madara's role in the best way possible. In other words, Madara fucked up his mind pretty intensely, making him into a miniature of himself, with improved skills and inplanted knowledge, in other words: the perfect vessel to carry on his plan.

    Add: Yes Paul, i think what tobi has told us till now were all lies:

    -I am madara uchiha
    -I gave nagato the rinnegan
    -I'm taking back what is mine
    -The rinne tesnei was supposed to be used for me

    He's acting. His whole mission was to act as madara until the plan came true. As to the "they were mine to begin with" that he said around Kabuto, there are 2 possibilities:

    -everything madara had entrusted him, automatically became his. So the rinnegans were entrusted to nagato, but also to tobi to look after them, so they were his to take care of.

    -or, madara's brainwashing was so intense that it made Obito lose the boundary between himself and madara and he really thinks he's the old uchiha leader sometimes.

    2) Kisame has been very close to Tobi, I dare say on almost the same level of intimacy as Zetsu. Here's what I think about this: Madara Uchiha, the real deal survived long enough to control Yagura the mizukage and died somewhat in the middle of that mission. Simply put I'm saying that the long haired tobi and the short haired tobi weren't the same person. There were two Tobis, one was Obito and the other was Madara himself. The only thing Obito did as Tobi, was fighting Yondaime and setting the kyuubi free. The rest (like talking with itachi, controlling yagura) was done by madara before dying. At the time he was controlling Yagura, Obito was already his right arm, so I bet Kisame knew him in person as well. He was aware of the yagura plan. I think madara, before dying entrusted the rest of the plan to tobi/Obito, as well as the task to use his identity as his own. Like this Obito would become the "mizukage" for a bit too, and Kisame would recognize him in the hideout.
    To make you understand betetr how i view the timeline of madara's life/death I'll make it in points:

    -Madara defeats hashirama and steals his Dna
    -Madara awakens Rinnegan
    -Madara gives his rinnegans to Nagato.
    -Madara replaces his eyes with some random ones.
    -Madara spies on the uchiha clan and Obito
    -Madara saves Obito, and orhestrates rin's death
    -Madara and Orochimaru create zetsu
    -Madara recruits Obito and indoctrinates him.
    -Madara makes Obito attack the leaf as a proof of loyalty and to capture kyuubi
    -Madara plots with itachi
    -Madara takes control of Yagura in the meantime
    -Madara dies, leaving the rest of his plans to Obito

    3) In my opinion, every character in narutoverse has his own talent.
    -Sasuke is a genius uchiha in ninjutsu
    -Rock lee is a genius of hard work
    -Neji is a genius with byakugan and Hyuga style
    -Kakashi is a genius in his own way
    -Tsunade is a genius healer, like sakura.
    -Naruto is a genius of kage bushins.

    Everyone is special in their own way. They may suck at everything else, but there is always something that makes them exceptional. What if Isay Obito is a genius with his sharingan? Zestu once said: "The sharingan is only a tool, it depends on the users ability to use it". Obito, who sucked at ninjutsu and ninja skills in general has finally found his strong point: his awakened eyes! From the moment he got them, he became a different person. No more crybaby, who must be protected, but a ninja who protects others and immediatly is able to use his strong point at his advantage. Then he unlocks MS (which i said over a billion times, is unique and hax. it can turn a weakling into an untouchable divinity). Assuming he had talent with sharingan, even his way of using it would be genial, making him someone totally different. Then he got hashirama cells, that gave him a boost in stamina, and probably enhancng him physically! Just look at how the zestu from slim and weak, became strThis would eong and full of muscles. This would even allow him to spam his MS without going blind. Add some training from madara, and the knowledge he might have given him about uchiha techniques and informatios...he would become quite formidable imo.

    4. Tobi had MS at that time, even though it wasn't shown...but he had MS, so he could have controlled Kyuubi. Every uchiha with ms could have done that. It doesen't require anything more than a special genjutsu cast by MS.

    The question about madara is already answered. You could be wrong assuming the yagura incident was been happening at the time where obito's not been born yet. It could have very well happened after the uchiha massacre.
    i hope you enjoy
    Last edited by Yoru; 08-29-2012 at 07:03 PM.

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by knife eater View Post
    My signature is incomplete context because if the character limit in signatures. Though incomplete context, it is still in the correct context and illustrates the point just fine. You were right about one thing, you originally said madara died shortly after his fight with hashirama and i accused you of saying he died during. You got me, i was wrong and either way you are still wrong because nobody knows when madara died, shortly after the fight or great lengths of time afterwards.

    And here we are, obito is tobi, something you said was laughable and laughable for reasons you were dead wrong about. Now, i will leave you alone, never to respond or flame you again in these forums. The end of the day showed us who was right.

    @ everyone else, last mystery for me is the muzukage face. Long haired masked man approaches mizukage, short haired masked man shows his face to kisame, which he recognized as mizukage. We never see kisame with either maske man during the mizukage manipulation do we? Could tobi have taken over mizukage detail before meeting kisame? Does tobi project an illusion if his face?

    IS TOBI PROJECTING AN ILLUSION OF OBITO'S FACE TO KAKASHI, GAI, AND NARUTO?
    so the fact that nothing have been verified at all, obito is tobi. yes, it is his body from the looks of it but is it obito that is in "control" and nothing atm shows who it is. after all, naruto used henge to look like sasuke and orochimaru absorbed souls to take over bodies but still initially looked like the old person or tsunade looking like a yound woman when she is in her 50s. there are so many possibilities that stating who it is, is pointless at this junction. it is still laughable to me if obito infact is tobi, it would seriously mess up the timelines, just the fact that he would know something like jinchuriki's being pregnent for 10 months and that their seals will weaken during that would show that he has to atleast have had a longer time to learn such things or had prior knowledge of it as it was a closely guarded secret, which would indicate that it is some1 much older and afaik he said he had waited a long time for it, and if it is obito 3ish years isnt exactly a long time but if it is izuna who would have waited for like 50-60 years then it is another matter. i think it is just kishi throwing us a curve ball.

  3. #43
    Mangaka Sharingan Foxhound's Avatar
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    Sorry if I'm missing something but I have found an explanation why everyone belived Obito is Madara. Check out the next spoilers:
    First - The Kyuubi
    Spoiler!

    Then Kisame...two times
    Spoiler!

    Spoiler!

    Then compare it to Madara's genjutsu:
    Spoiler!


    Obito fooled everyone,put them under gendjutsu. Maybe instead of Nagato,Konan,Yahiko...They had their own head and their own aims...That's why they left Akatsuki on their own will.

    Maybe I'm kind of slowpoke and anybody said it already...
    P.S. unfortunately I still have no explanation about Obito's rinnegan and where /when he could meet Madara (because they know each other)... The only thing I can tell about this he could interested in Madara after his fight with Minato (http://www.mangareader.net/93-55464-...apter-502.html)
    The main is "I don't know about that"
    Last edited by Foxhound; 08-29-2012 at 09:51 PM.

  4. #44
    Senior Member knife eater's Avatar
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    I nominate this thread for sticky! If not, then would a moderator mind creating a sticky thread centralizing all the common bits of the obito theory?

    We still have people saying no way its obito because when tobi battled the fourth obito would not be that strong.
    That issue has been answered already numerous times!

    People still deny or suggest this or that based on when madara died, BUT WE DONT KNOW WHEN!

    Matters of physique still create stumbling blocks for people when they no longer shouldn't


    Tons of common stuff like that already addressed and thanks to this thread many answers and valuable discussions are in one place!

    Everything is answered as to how obito can be tobi, what is left to answer is how he came to be tobi.

    Otherwise, i guess just reading the next few chapters will take care of such concerns.

    Quote Originally Posted by Foxhound View Post
    Sorry if I'm missing something but I have found an explanation why everyone belived Obito is Madara. Check out the next spoilers:
    First - The Kyuubi
    Spoiler!

    Then Kisame...two times
    Spoiler!

    Spoiler!

    Then compare it to Madara's genjutsu:
    Spoiler!


    Obito fooled everyone,put them under gendjutsu. Maybe instead of Nagato,Konan,Yahiko...They had their own head and their own aims...That's why they left Akatsuki on their own will.

    Maybe I'm kind of slowpoke and anybody said it already...
    P.S. unfortunately I still have no explanation about Obito's rinnegan and where /when he could meet Madara (because they know each other)... The only thing I can tell about this he could interested in Madara after his fight with Minato (http://www.mangareader.net/93-55464-...apter-502.html)
    The main is "I don't know about that"
    Madara was immortal (until he wasn't) itachi met madara and tobi both. Obito could have easily encountered madara at any point. The rinnegan allegedly came from madara but it does't appear that tobi ever had those eyes before pein.
    Last edited by knife eater; 08-30-2012 at 05:17 AM.
    _____
    Obito is Tobirama's great grandson. The proof is in the pudding.

  5. #45
    Senior Member zeroLT's Avatar
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    I want to say that Obito isnt 100% Obito and is at least 50% Zetsu.
    Zetsu Appearance
    http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__.../Zetsu-san.jpg
    Obito's Appearance as he was dying
    http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__...px-Obito_3.PNG
    Obito Appearance currently
    http://nas.unixmanga.com/onlinereadi...20c599/015.jpg

    According to the Naruto Wiki "Black Zetsu only uses katakana for okurigana and furigana while White Zetsu uses kanji and kana regularly. This is often conveyed in the anime through the use of different voice actors. The two halves also converse with each other, and occasionally differ in opinion (Black Zetsu is more serious and knowledgeable while White Zetsu is carefree and easygoing)" http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Zetsu

    But the idea is flawed because of Obito's claim of creating of the White Zetsu.

    My Original idea is that the original personality-less but loyal Zetsu was created by Madara using Hashirama's cells. Seeing that he, combined with the cells of Hashirama, was able to extend his life long after his fight with Hashirama as he was at least genetically compatible with those cells. Along with his EMS and the newly awakened Rinnegan. There was little he couldnt do but he was eventually going to die, he sought out a way to revive himself later at some point in the future. He observed Obito and saw that since he died or dying out in the field. He sent the Zetsu to assimilate his body.

    As a result, the Zetsu absorbed the dead half of his body and left the right portion of his body for Obito's undamaged portion of his body. Resulting in a split personality, once completely mono-tone and the other portion the opposite more inline with Obito's personal.

    Zetus/Obito returned to a near death Madara and through manipulation, Obito's realization of that he was become, Madara convinced Obito to create the Moon's Eye Plan. To create a perfect world free of war and crime. To me this is referring to Madara's attempt to use the combination of the Sharigean and Rinnegan where the Genjutsu will be placed down and use the Rinngean and the Ten Tail Chakra to revive the Uchiha clan and create a world were the Uchiha are supreme and the Senju are inferior. He convinces Obito by giving him the Hashirama clone to help him make the White Zetsu who has a persona similar to himself and begin building the army and allowing him to separate from the now black Zetsu and combine it with a white Zetsu, but he is still a Zetsu but his still is able to maintain his own appearance original appearance before his death.

    He lets himself be known to the Uchiha clan who he is "Madara" and convinces the clan to think about rebellion. Itachi, being trusted by the clan, let him know that Madara is still alive. "Before the fateful night arrived, Itachi discovered the existence of Tobi — under the guise of a vengeful Madara Uchiha — who was attempting to rekindle the flames of war in Konoha. In return for not attacking Konoha, Itachi offered to help him claim vengeance against the Uchiha for turning their backs on him decades earlier to which Tobi agreed." (Ripped it off from the Wiki )

    Obito took the eye's off the freshly dead and tried to create the Rinngean with the those eyes and replace the one he lost. Due to the Zetsu DNA it didnt allow him to create the Rinngean so he had to find one and he found one in Nagato.

    So far that what I got, anyone want to debate this? I think it has come merit

    EPIC!!!

  6. #46
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    no matter how much of the so called "proof" that has been posted, there are still way too many inconsistencies for it to be obito. how could obito find out about such things as jinchuriki and how their seals weaken during child-birth something that only a handfull of ppl knows and the fact that he claimed he had waited a long time for this and 2-3 years isnt exactly a long time. and most specifically how would he have learned how to control the kyubi during the fight with minato. ofc ppl could claim that it was madara then but that would rule out obito, so it would have had to have been obito, but that makes little sense and it wouldnt explain how he learned a MS technique while only having 1 normal sharingan eye. any "proof" that tobi is obito would fit better for izuna as it would certainly explain why tobi had waited a long time, and why madara would put some trust in tobi and madara apparently knew him. but ofc it could be obito, but if it is then i would need some in depth explanations about how he became tobi.

  7. #47
    Senior Member zeroLT's Avatar
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    The reason I used visual clue is because that is all that Kashi has shown us. Visually I thought Karin was a member of the Uzumaki clan because of her red hair and the fact that she and the only other member of the uzumaki clan Nagato had deep red hair and connected it together and found out it was true. So, I believe is Kashi a very visual artist and will leave visual clues around. The similarities between Obito and Zetsu is too great to ignore.

    http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__.../Zetsu-san.jpg

    http://nas.unixmanga.com/onlinereadi...20c599/015.jpg

    Karin, Kushinma, Nagato, Mito(The Wife of Hashirama) all had a similar appearance, red hair and no one made the link until that Karin was a member of the uzumaki clan until it was revealed even though the giveaway of deep red hair was the clue all along

    Obito and Zetsu have similar features, a equal split down the middle with one side looking normal and the other side all fucked up so... because this is a Manga and it kind of requires visual clues, I am going to say based on what I see, the Link Between Obito and Zetsu are too great to simply say no evidence

    EPIC!!!

  8. #48
    Senior Member knife eater's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zeroLT View Post
    The reason I used visual clue is because that is all that Kashi has shown us. Visually I thought Karin was a member of the Uzumaki clan because of her red hair and the fact that she and the only other member of the uzumaki clan Nagato had deep red hair and connected it together and found out it was true. So, I believe is Kashi a very visual artist and will leave visual clues around. The similarities between Obito and Zetsu is too great to ignore.

    http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__.../Zetsu-san.jpg

    http://nas.unixmanga.com/onlinereadi...20c599/015.jpg

    Karin, Kushinma, Nagato, Mito(The Wife of Hashirama) all had a similar appearance, red hair and no one made the link until that Karin was a member of the uzumaki clan until it was revealed even though the giveaway of deep red hair was the clue all along

    Obito and Zetsu have similar features, a equal split down the middle with one side looking normal and the other side all fucked up so... because this is a Manga and it kind of requires visual clues, I am going to say based on what I see, the Link Between Obito and Zetsu are too great to simply say no evidence
    Hey, great post. Many if us see things revealed external of dialogue, like what a seemingly out if place and arbitrary panel is meant to really convey. Kishi does now how to weave information into the drawings. Well, back on track to your thoughts about "visually split" as meaningful characteristics... i would like to also offer the idea of zetsu and tobi, possibly madara also, having their "two halves" related to Muu. His technique must have meant something more important than simply being that moment's plot device or technical piece. Mu's split (not a shadow clone but a literal division of body and chakra) technique will recieve allusions soon enough. No coincidence something like that would be introduced alongside madara without it being more meaningful at some point down the road. Not only that, a split will most likely not share experience or knowledge and develop independently with a divergence of personality away from that of the original form. That's zetsu! Lets see how mu's encounter with madara and connections play out.
    _____
    Obito is Tobirama's great grandson. The proof is in the pudding.

  9. #49
    It looks like there are a lot of great theories that will take me a while to read through, but I'd like to offer one of my own.

    Has anyone considered the fact that Obito's mind has been under the constant effect of Tsukuyomi since he revealed himself as Tobi? I think it's very plausible, because given that Madara's plan has been to take control of ALL people through an Infinite Tsukuyomi, it shouldn't have been much of a stretch for him to take control of Obito in a similar way. It might be that Obito's right eye (the one he's always had) was subject to Tsukuyomi shortly after the boulder. Madara might have turned this boy into a second Madara simply by implanting a genjutsu upon him.

    Or, could it be that the rare Koto Amatsukami was used? Obito has been mentally transformed from the boy he used to be, suggesting the use of a strong, unbreakable genjutsu like the one Shisui used.

    About the discrepancy regarding his height during the battle with Minato, wasn't that maybe four years after Obito's death? A teenage boy can get pretty darn tall after four years.

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