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  1. #21
    Senior Member knife eater's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zero Phoenix View Post
    I know Uchiha Blood. He's..., well I won't go there. Let's just say I know him. Allow me to explain how this works.


    The first, most important point of them all.
    What make Obito ( a Naruto wannabe ) change idea in the time span of 1 or 2 years?
    The same Obito believing in heroes and giving Kakashi his famous phrase, why would he make a speech on how the world doesn't need any heroes?.
    We can easily see how Tobi and Obito share two, very different ideals, and unless he was brainwashed by someone, it would make no sense whatsoever for such a radical change.


    This entire section is contradicted by the Narutoverse itself. We've seen many characters change because of war, death, disappointment, and so forth. Orochimaru was a good kid, even after losing his parents. Hell he was still a good person when he was a sannin but over the years, seeing the death of his comrades and the effects of war he was driven batshit insane. We've seen how Kabuto used to be a gentle soul and it only took 1 or 2 years for him to lose it thanks to Danzo's machinations. And let's not even get started on Nagato who as a child was a pacifist who later grew into an adult advocating widespread genocide. So please, there is plenty in the Narutoverse that can cause a character to undergo a radical change.



    Also, why harbour such a hate for his former sensei, his wife and his child to the point of covering the latter with paper bombs?
    The same Yondaime that teached him and Kakashi about teamwork?
    Remember Obito calling Kakashi captain as a sign of peace because Yondaime explained to him that Kakashi's life was the hardest of them all, asking him to understand where he comes from?


    Didn't Nagato harbor a lot of love and respect for his master only for it to turn to disgust? He even went so far as to kill Jiraiya. Didn't Orochimaru admire Sarutobi who taught him and his team about working together and familial bonds? Hmmmm, didn't Orochimaru later kill Sarutobi after the world warped him? Hmmmmm, didn't Sasuke try to kill Kakashi a hundred or so chapters ago? Hmmmmm, we've seen a lot of characters love and respect their teachers in the beginning, only to be warped by the pain of war and turn to hate their mentors.



    Timeline

    We know the Kyuubi's attack happened 1, 2 years at best after Kakashi's Gaiden, since Kakashi and Gai seem 14, 15 at best.
    Here we see how an adult physique ( Kurenai's father ) isn't even comparable to the kids, while here we see Tobi having the same physique as Yondaime.
    Obito never was renowed to have a peculiar height or bulk ( he seems on the short side ), so it doesn't make sense for him to obtain the body of an adult in a 1-2 years span.
    Still it isn't a valid point, so I'll provide others:


    Uchiha Blood never heard of puberty it seems.



    Do you have any idea how long I've waited for this moment?
    A 16 years old saying that? After 1-2 years passed?
    Are 2 years such a huge span of time to wait?


    Uh yeah. Remember when Sasuke bumped into Itachi at that hotel where Akatsuki was tailing Naruto? And remember when Sasuke said "I've waited my whole life for this moment"? Sasuke was only 14 years old. Itachi went batshit when Sasuke was six. My point is for a kid going through a tragedy any amount of time is a long-time to them.




    But wait, there is more:

    The same Tobi that Kabuto knows not to be the real Madara saying, in front of Kabuto and Zetsu, both knowing his real identity, that he obtained Hashirama's tissue during that battle?
    Maybe I forgot something, but as I recall, Hashirama died way before Obito was even born.
    But there is more still.


    This has been explained at least a billion times. Orochimaru was in possession of Hashirama's cells which were used in the creation of Zetsu. We're never told how Orochimaru came to be in possession of them but Uchiha Blood's argument, like most of his posts has no point to make. The issue here wouldn't be how Obito got Hashirama's cells but how Orochimaru got them in the first place. Orochimaru performed hundreds of experiments on kids and Yamamoto was the only one who survived. It's entirely possible (even likely) that Danzo was also involved in these experiments and may have carried them out on Obito who is now Tobi. Orochimaru himself was probably the one who carried out such experiments. These facts set forth by me, though always good are probably not neccessary as Tobi is in possession of Hashirama's cells via Zetsu. I don't recall the manga saying that Tobi himself carried out the experiments but rather he was a recipient of their benefits.


    Tobi was the one that "created" Akatsuki, and the one to gave Nagato the Rin'negan, the same Nagato Madara seem to know.
    Wasn't Nagato, like, a lot older than Obito? He was Jiraiya's student, meaning he should have at least Yondaime's age, if not older.



    I answered this in another thread so I won't waste my time refuting it again.



    Not counting also his knowledge about both Uchiha's jutsus and Uchiha's history, why would Obito have this reaction when talking about Izuna?
    It was the only reaction he had, even when talking about the Uchiha's massacre or his banishment he was impassible.
    Why then responding to Izuna?


    It's called "acting." Sasuke had just lost his brother (in a way). In order to manipulate Sasuke, Tobi needed him to think that "as Madara" he experienced a similar loss. It's the oldest trick in the book. You make your hostage empathize with you in order to get from them their cooperation and in some cases their allegiance.



    Last proof?
    Madara personally knows Tobi, the same Madara that was resurrected by Edo Tensei at the same state of his death, meaning Madara likely "died" around 30-40 years of age, judging by his overall aspect.
    Was Obito even born? Remember, at Madara and Hashirama's prime an old fart like Hiruzen was just a kid


    Madara knows many things he shouldn't. Madara himself is a rabbit hole. The only reason I won't refute this is because there is A LOT about Madara and his revivial that doesn't make any sense.




    Ability
    We know that Obito was a funny guy, but he was no genius, hell he was pretty average.
    Yet the same Obito, in 2 years, managed to:

    -gain enormous knowledge on seals
    -Managing to control the Kyuubi with a 3 tomoe Sharingan, a feat that only Madara Uchiha can apparently do
    -Making a contract with Kyuubi
    -Having knowledge, skills and abilities that no normal ninja can have, associating him to Madara once again.
    -Having superior abilities than Yondaime, someone hailed as the greatest prodigy of his era, matching him in combat while controlling the Kyuubi at the same time
    -Already making plans for Infinite Tsukuyomi, so gaining knowledge on Rikudou Sennin and the Juubi, knowledge being long forgotten




    And in only four years we've seen Naruto go from an F student who couldn't execute the basic ninjutsu (shadow clones) to a character who has surpassed pretty much the entire Narutoverse sans maybe, maybe three characters. This was a failure. Who became a legend. In four years. Let me play that back. Naruto, who used to be the equivalent of a dropout has long surpassed Jiraiya and Minato and has, at this point, been compared to Rikudou Sennin himself by several characters in only four years. Think about that.
    Great post! Also, there is still a viable plot twist which could end up making madara NOT know of or about TOBI. That strictly depends on how extensive and if at all the relationship between orochimaru and madara.

    I'lil explain. Orochimaru gets hashirama cells and madara cells given to him by madara and begins extensive experimentation. Anyway, while their final aims are not seemingly compatible the experiments and their results fully serve the aspirations and desires of both madara and orochimaru. If tobi owes his existence more to orochimaru than madara then its likely tobi was "a backorder"
    _____
    Obito is Tobirama's great grandson. The proof is in the pudding.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zero Phoenix View Post



    Ability
    We know that Obito was a funny guy, but he was no genius, hell he was pretty average.
    Yet the same Obito, in 2 years, managed to:

    -gain enormous knowledge on seals
    -Managing to control the Kyuubi with a 3 tomoe Sharingan, a feat that only Madara Uchiha can apparently do
    -Making a contract with Kyuubi
    -Having knowledge, skills and abilities that no normal ninja can have, associating him to Madara once again.
    -Having superior abilities than Yondaime, someone hailed as the greatest prodigy of his era, matching him in combat while controlling the Kyuubi at the same time
    -Already making plans for Infinite Tsukuyomi, so gaining knowledge on Rikudou Sennin and the Juubi, knowledge being long forgotten




    And in only four years we've seen Naruto go from an F student who couldn't execute the basic ninjutsu (shadow clones) to a character who has surpassed pretty much the entire Narutoverse sans maybe, maybe three characters. This was a failure. Who became a legend. In four years. Let me play that back. Naruto, who used to be the equivalent of a dropout has long surpassed Jiraiya and Minato and has, at this point, been compared to Rikudou Sennin himself by several characters in only four years. Think about that.
    well, you are missing one major thing in your arguements here. you dont realize that the only reason naruto went so far in 4 years as he did, is becoz he is the protagonist and as such are uniquely special compared to every1 else in the manga, so this is a HUGE factor in naruto's growth. also to to talk about the fact that naruto's intelligence have always been downplayed when infact he is a rather intelligent guy, capable of thinking up amazing strategies on the fly. also technically naruto havent been compared to the SO6P but rather to minato. It is us readers that have compared naruto to the SO6P bcoz of the picture we saw with him talking to the tailed beasts where he looked a lot like minato and naruto, hence the comparison.

    personally, the idea of (no)obito being tobi is laughable, coz i feel he is too young and if tobi and madara know eachother personally then tobi cant be obito, izuna is the better option and the more viable one and it would certainly explain many of the things he can do.

  3. #23
    Senior Member knife eater's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by almara View Post
    well, you are missing one major thing in your arguements here. you dont realize that the only reason naruto went so far in 4 years as he did, is becoz he is the protagonist and as such are uniquely special compared to every1 else in the manga, so this is a HUGE factor in naruto's growth. also to to talk about the fact that naruto's intelligence have always been downplayed when infact he is a rather intelligent guy, capable of thinking up amazing strategies on the fly. also technically naruto havent been compared to the SO6P but rather to minato. It is us readers that have compared naruto to the SO6P bcoz of the picture we saw with him talking to the tailed beasts where he looked a lot like minato and naruto, hence the comparison.

    personally, the idea of (no)obito being tobi is laughable, coz i feel he is too young and if tobi and madara know eachother personally then tobi cant be obito, izuna is the better option and the more viable one and it would certainly explain many of the things he can do.
    Hey there, IM quoting your post so you wont embarrass yourself and have to say i didn't read your post. You WOULD find the idea of obito being tobi laughable but FAIL ENTIRELY to answer any of the compelling reasons that ALLOW THE IDEA TO BE PLAUSIBLE. Naruto was associated with so6p during his training in the cloud temple with bee, BEFORE THE BIJUU TALK AND BEFORE KAKASHI RECALLS "YELLOW FLASH" see, i quoted your post, and the sage association happens before the moment you use to show GE wasn't.

    You once said madara died in valley of the end. Everyone knows that isn't true. Also, itachi made clear distinction in knowing MADARA and THE SHELL of his former self. He made clear distinction in his lecture to sasuke that he ENCOUNTERED BOTH!!
    There are flashbacks of itachi with masked men at different times and having differethair lengths as well, one with madara style hair and one with tobi style hair.


    Nobody knows when madara died, nobody knows how old tobi really is. To say anything is laughable because of claims regarding both of those unknowns is silly.

    The shit about the protagonist is wash, thousands of stories of the protagonist lesser in power and development. Supporting characters surpass the protagonist all the time, so do antagonists. Being the protagonist, even on shonen manga, does not guarantee or hold Any substance in the point you tried to make.

    I quoted your post, i addressed statements therein. Go ahead, say i didn't read it, say your usual nonsense when you wantvme to be wrong but have nothing to show.
    _____
    Obito is Tobirama's great grandson. The proof is in the pudding.

  4. #24
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    and once again knife eater put words in some1s mouth. he claims to have read my posts and yet he completely and utterly misquotes me. as ive mentioned earlier, if you had bothered reading, any theory no matter how laughable can be the wrong or correct one, i cant rule anything out, but here is the thing, you cant rule anything out either.

    and just to be clear, i never said madara died at the valley of the end, i said he died shortly after that, and how long "shortly" is, is a relative term, according to you it means at the valley of the end, it doesnt mean that to me, its something ive said to you often, but you clearly read what you want to read and ignore everything else.

    Quote Originally Posted by knife eater View Post
    Nobody knows when madara died, nobody knows how old tobi really is. To say anything is laughable because of claims regarding both of those unknowns is silly.
    ironically, this is the only part of your post that actually seem to get my point, except i was making an opinion and not a theory but once again, you read what you THINK it says and not what it actually says.

    The shit about the protagonist is wash, thousands of stories of the protagonist lesser in power and development. Supporting characters surpass the protagonist all the time, so do antagonists. Being the protagonist, even on shonen manga, does not guarantee or hold Any substance in the point you tried to make.
    and yet, everything else suggest that im right, how else do you think protagonists in mangas like this, defeat ppl that have been training for several years when the protagonist have only trained a few years. mangas like naruto, fairy tail, bleach, history's strongest disciple kenichi etc. certainly proves you wrong.

    I quoted your post, i addressed statements therein. Go ahead, say i didn't read it, say your usual nonsense when you wantvme to be wrong but have nothing to show.
    ill give it a 1/10, nice start but poor finish. you claim to have read my posts and then you quote things from them that ive never said, you call it my usual nonense, which makes me see your own ignorence and the fact that you make up things that ive never said to feed your own faulty arguements.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by almara View Post
    well, you are missing one major thing in your arguements here. you dont realize that the only reason naruto went so far in 4 years as he did, is becoz he is the protagonist and as such are uniquely special compared to every1 else in the manga, so this is a HUGE factor in naruto's growth. also to to talk about the fact that naruto's intelligence have always been downplayed when infact he is a rather intelligent guy, capable of thinking up amazing strategies on the fly. also technically naruto havent been compared to the SO6P but rather to minato. It is us readers that have compared naruto to the SO6P bcoz of the picture we saw with him talking to the tailed beasts where he looked a lot like minato and naruto, hence the comparison.
    No offense but that's nonsense. Look at how far Sasuke and Gaara have come in only a few short years despite the fact that they're not the heroes. You can't say "this character has these traits because they're the hero" and try to pass that off as a canon fact in a debate. In otherwords tropes and genre mainstays aren't actually critical to these discussions as you're relying more on constructs of literature rather than contents of an individual work. And Naruto's intelligence has never been downplayed. He's always been an idiot. He just gradually overcame his stupidity over time. You can go back to part one and see that this is clearly one stupid kid. But the battles he went through made him smarter and smarter until eventually he could be categorized as a genius in his own right. It's true that Naruto's rapid, blistering growth is due in part to him being a protagonist and having cheatcodes in his genes but that doesn't downplay other characters growth and accomplishments. In other words, you can't argue that Naruto can do certain things and other characters can't if your only reason for doing so is Naruto being a protagonist.




    Quote Originally Posted by almara View Post
    personally, the idea of (no)obito being tobi is laughable, coz i feel he is too young and if tobi and madara know eachother personally then tobi cant be obito, izuna is the better option and the more viable one and it would certainly explain many of the things he can do.
    There are theories that there are three different Tobi's (at least). If we look at the Tobi Itachi met, his hairstyle was completely different from the Tobi Minato fault. The current Tobi has hair exactly like Obito's. No one else in this manga has Obito's hairstyle except Tobi and as well know hair changes very little (never) in most manga. And Kisame knew one of the Tobi's to be the Mizukage. It's possible that Tobi literally as "no one" as it's just a name taken up by Uchiha or Uchiha Madara empathizers.
    Last edited by Zero Phoenix; 08-24-2012 at 07:16 PM.

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    afaik i never said anything about other ppl's growth in my post, so you commenting on that is pointless and is just you putting words in my mouth. the fact remains tho that naruto growth is mainly bcoz of him being the protagonist and gaara and sasuke are rivals, so ofc they will have similar growths, i dont think you can mention other ppl with similar growths except maybe neji. i do agree with you that naruto from the start was portraited as an idiot, and that he overcame it atleast during his fights and during those fights he showed great intelligence or maybe strategic skill is a better word, it certainly showed that he wasnt "just" the stupid naruto that was shown from the start. and you talk about "cheatcodes" in his genes but the question is, if he doesnt have those said "cheatcodes" bcoz he is the hero of the manga. also the example you mention, are also of ppl that have similar cheatcodes in their genes(maybe not gaara tho), the sharingan is prolly the greatest cheatcode of them all.

    you may have a point in the whole "three different tobi" thing, it is certainly a viable theory, but you mention hairstyles as an argument for this, but couldnt it just be, and here im prolly oversimplifying it, bcoz they hair grows and didnt cut it? i know its a stupid point, but its a point none the less, atleast i know that atleast for me, i have different hairstyles, sometimes its long, sometimes it short, as such i dont think you can really use hairstyles as an arguement, but you may be right.
    Last edited by almara; 08-24-2012 at 08:04 PM.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by almara View Post
    i never said anything about other ppl's growth in my post, so you commenting on that is pointless and is just you putting words in my mouth.
    Actually you did. O_o


    "you dont realize that the only reason naruto went so far in 4 years as he did, is becoz he is the protagonist and as such are uniquely special compared to every1 else in the manga, so this is a HUGE factor in naruto's growth."

    RIGHT there. The instant you drew comparisons between Naruto and the other characters you immediately commented on his growth. I'm only playing the notes you gave me pal.



    Quote Originally Posted by almara View Post
    the fact remains tho that naruto growth is mainly bcoz of him being the protagonist and gaara and sasuke are rivals, so ofc they will have similar growths except maybe neji, i dont think you can mention other ppl with similar growths.
    I just said you cannot, logically, use tropes and genre mainstays in this kind of debate. And that's exactly what you did. You're not discussing the characters in the work you're discussing the devices around the work.



    Quote Originally Posted by almara View Post
    and you talk about "cheatcodes" in his genes but the question is, if he doesnt have those said "cheatcodes" bcoz he is the hero of the manga. also the example you mention, are also of ppl that have similar cheatcodes in their genes(maybe not gaara tho), the sharingan is prolly the greatest cheatcode of them all.
    That's kind of my point. It's because other characters had cheatcodes just like Naruto that they grew as he did. You argued that as the protagonist Naruto developed more than the other characters. I said that was incorrect. Naruto developed to the extent he did not because of the "type of character" he was (speaking from a literary standpoint) but because of his character (i.e., not a character "type" but how his character was designed plotwise). Other characters like Sasuke had similar cheatcodes and they developed just like Naruto. Kishimoto even said that Naruto and Sasuke are about equal. So for you to say that Naruto developed more than the other characters is just outright wrong.




    Quote Originally Posted by almara View Post
    you may have a point in the whole "three different tobi" thing, it is certainly a viable theory, but you mention hairstyles as an argument for this, but couldnt it just be, and here im prolly oversimplifying it, bcoz they hair grows and didnt cut it? i know its a stupid point, but its a point none the less, atleast i know that atleast for me, i have different hairstyles, sometimes its long, sometimes it short, as such i dont think you can really use hairstyles as an arguement, but you may be right.
    Not really. If we look at Kakashi, Shikamaru, Naruto, Sasuke, Itachi, Madara, Kabuto, Sai, Lee, Neji, the list goes on, none of their hairstyles have ever changed even over a course of years. For at least two of these Tobi to have different hairstyles is quite relevant. Hell, even God Realm had the same hairstyle as Yahiko. Sakura and Ino aside no one in Naruto changes their hairstyle. For the Tobi that Itachi met to have different hair from Madara, and for the Tobi we all know to have different hair from the two of them seems rather important. And look at the Tobi Minato fought. He was already wearing a mask. Why would he need to wear a hood as well? He's already hiding his face, why hide his hair too?

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    ok, i cant see where i make comparisons to naruto's growth and other ppl's growth. ill try and make it clear: how many protagonists are there in naruto? and who is the protagonist? the answer to those 2 questions is there is one protagonist and his name is naruto, doesnt that make him uniquely special compared to the other ppl in the manga? im fairly sure the other ppl arent protagonists also and that naruto being the protagonist is a large reason why he progresses so fast. the only comparison that comes into play is me saying the protagonist is unique compared to non-protagonists, the only growth i mention is naruto's.

    also i wouldnt exactly say that naruto had "cheatcodes" like say sasuke, sasuke certainly had it easier due to his sharingan, just think if naruto had the sharingan too, just have kakashi show naruto the 1000 jutsus he knows and he would be pretty much be over with training but you're right that naruto grew bcoz of his character or more precisely due to his determination, as that is prolly a better word for it, his extreme amount of stamina helped him and thats where his "cheatcode" comes in. i didnt exactly say that naruto have developed more than sasuke, one could say that sasuke progressed more during part 1 and the time skip and then naruto progressed more during part 2.

    im not ruling you out about the whole hairstyle thing, i just feel its a bit thin for an arguement, maybe the ppl you listed are just more into setting their hair while tobi is not, maybe they just gotten a trim everytime they are shown and tobi doesnt care about his hair(haircutting isnt shown apparently, and i doubt their hair stop growing all together, so they must be getting haircuts), there can be plenty of reason why tobi has different hairstyles, my sister for example have had 3-4 differnt hairstyles over the course of her life, it isnt far fetched that ppl in a manga change their hairstyle, just look at sakura, she cut her hair!! altho it wasnt by choice but yeah, you may have a point that the different hairstyles of tobi may show that he has been several different ppl in terms of looks etc.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by almara View Post
    also i wouldnt exactly say that naruto had "cheatcodes" like say sasuke, sasuke certainly had it easier due to his sharingan, just think if naruto had the sharingan too, just have kakashi show naruto the 1000 jutsus he knows and he would be pretty much over with training but you're right that naruto grew bcoz of his character or more precisely due to his determination, as that is prolly a better word for it, his extreme amount of stamina helped him and thats where his "cheatcode" comes in.

    A cheatcode is a cheatcode. Sasuke's gives him infinite health while Naruto gets infinite chakra. Same dif.




    Quote Originally Posted by almara View Post
    im not ruling you out about the whole hairstyle thing, i just feel its a bit thin for an arguement, maybe the ppl you listed are just more into setting their hair while tobi is not, maybe they just gotten a trim everytime they are shown and tobi doesnt care about his hair(haircutting isnt shown apparently, and i doubt their hair stop growing all together, so they must be getting haircuts), there can be plenty of reason why tobi has different hairstyles, my sister for example have had 3-4 differnt hairstyles over the course of her life, it isnt far fetched that ppl in a manga change their hairstyle, just look at sakura, she cut her hair!! altho it wasnt by choice but yeah, you may have a point that the different hairstyles of tobi may show that he has been several different ppl in terms of looks etc.
    Sakura cut her hair because it was essential to the plot. She wanted to change who she was as a person. Shame all she changed was her hair but eh. I'm just saying that Madara's powerhair is a major part of his description and for Tobi to claim he is Madara and not have the power hair is a bit strange. It's true he was rocking that do when he met Itachi but then later his hair is exactly the same as Obito's. And remember everyone knew what Madara looked like right down to his powerhair. It's strange to me that he'd hide his face and his hair during his fight with Minato if he was actually Madara. Why go to such an extent to hide ones identity y'know.

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    i cant remember if tobi actually said he was madara, it may just be assumptions made by other ppl in the manga but i agree, it does sound a bit weird that tobi would change hairdos over time, and go as far as hiding it does seem strange.

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