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  1. #11
    Senior Member Zero's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daemon Spade View Post
    @Paul, simple answer.

    It was just explained last chapter. Only certain parts of Tobi phase. When he got hit by the Rasengan it was part of his face and his shoulder that phased. Everything else was still material.

    Flashback to Obito looking up and seeing a boulder falling torward his face:

    (Hypothetically) Lets say his Right eye (Tobi's jutsu) kicks in. For all intents & purposes, Obito doesnt know whats going on. All he knows is that part of him now exist in a place of absolute darkness. It would be safe to assume youre dead/about to die. Thinking this he gives his other eye to his friend. Rin would detect nothing on his right side, which might be more traumatizing than sensing blood and guts.

    If strong enough, love is alway all the reason a human need to do something, no matter if it is heroic or horrific.


    Zetsu finds him and fixes him, e.g., plant parts. His Tobi jutsu eye still exist because it was in another dimension. Zetsu directs Obito to Uchiha tablets and some old Madara scrolls and letters. Zetsu encourages Obito to adopt Madara's crusade citing similarities between the two Uchiha. Obito, being in an emotional state somewhere between Pein and Naruto, leans more to the darkside. Thus, we end up with Darthvader....I mean Anikin Skywalk...uhhhh....Evil Obito.
    Then this would mean he took the damage from his own jutsu (he was spitting a lot of blood from his mouth), which shouldn't be too strange, considering that at that time he had a chunin level chakra pool and freshly reawakened sharingan, perhaps he even misplaced some parts of his body at time, which would explain the need for Zetsu part as well... or just his arms were crushed and cells within them died (blood stopped flowing in them because from the pressure from rocks), thus had to be cut off and replaced.

    It's not like Obito had no reason to join Madara. If you look at Anakin's example, then their cases were similar, the only difference is that Anakin joined the dark side, before everything happened, to prevent it (yeah, nice going there), while Obito joined after everything went downhill.

    If strong enough, love is all the reason humans ever needed, no matter if it is heroic, or horrific.


  2. #12
    Konjiki Ashisogi Jizō Daemon Spade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zero View Post
    It's not like Obito had no reason to join Madara. If you look at Anakin's example, then their cases were similar, the only difference is that Anakin joined the dark side, before everything happened, to prevent it (yeah, nice going there), while Obito joined after everything went downhill.
    That seems to be the "Uchiha" way.

    And to everyone saying that Obito isnt smart enough to be Tobi. Obito was trained by Minato. Which, could explain his Time-Space techs, as well as Tobi's ability to plan ahead.
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  3. #13
    Senior Member paulbee's Avatar
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    Tobi may well turn out to be Obito (parts of him at least), BUT I can't imagine a scenario where he would become a cold heartless killer without a great deal of Mindwashing under Tsukuyomi, nor could he posses the deep knowledge of Uchiha history and jutsus (Sasuke did not even know about Izanagi/Izanami, and please these were not the kind of info on the stone tablet), without some quality indoctrination.

    I doubt that Zetsu is well suited for this role so it has to be Madara himself. This of course leads us back to the question of how long did Uchiha Madara live...when exactly he died. This is the key to everything.

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  4. #14
    Shiniobi of the Kage Clan odramek's Avatar
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    If Tobi is Obito, then Konoha needs to be destroyed. That would mean that they left his body at the war site instead of retrieving it. Also, what could have happened to him post boulder to let his harbor such hatred for his mentor that he would kill his newborn son. In my opinion Tobi can't be Obito, but a scavenger who took Obito's remaining (possibly crushed) eye after the boulder incident.

  5. #15
    Senior Member paulbee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by odramek View Post
    If Tobi is Obito, then Konoha needs to be destroyed. That would mean that they left his body at the war site instead of retrieving it. Also, what could have happened to him post boulder to let his harbor such hatred for his mentor that he would kill his newborn son. In my opinion Tobi can't be Obito, but a scavenger who took Obito's remaining (possibly crushed) eye after the boulder incident.
    That's a little too harsh, for Konoha to be destroyed because they did not retrieve a body. It's sad, but sometimes dead soldiers are not always brought back home. Anyhow, as far as Obito, It is not clear that his body was not retrieved. Kakashi does visit a Tomb, but it could be an empty tomb. Point is that we don't yet know what happened, but hope we find out soon.

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  6. #16
    Senior Member zeroLT's Avatar
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    I had this idea when it was first implied that Tobi=Obito? is that He may actually be Zetsu as well. The idea comes from the fact that Zetsu appears to be 2 people combined into one. Obito has half his body crushed, and I am thinking that Zetsu Originally found and was going to comsumed Obito's body, realizing that he got an uchiha and one working and almost undamaged eye took he decided to revive absorb the body and split himself in half.

    Since Zetsu, being a creation of Madara and possessing Hashirama cells, cultivating Obito's recovery. Eventually, Zetus brought Obito to Madara. At that point, a dying Madara manipulated Obito into running a grand plan revolving around reviving Madara when someone perfected the Edo Tensei. Using the Zetsu's Perfect Clone Technique recreated Obito's Appearance sans the missing eye. And sent him on his way to start an long ass plan....

    The idea I think has some validity to it, but I didnt completely fleshed out and research it completely. Thoughts?

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  7. #17
    Senior Member knife eater's Avatar
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    I used to hate obito tobi theories but now i think IM on board. Herevus a copy paste fro
    598 discussion.

    Also, we are forgetting that in naruto one person isn't always one essence or personality. Tobi might be obito but necessarily ONLY obito. Orochimaru died but had his essence among several surviving people and kabuto was in part both kabuto himself and also orochimaru and therefore a compound personality that is not technically just the sum of those two parts. Obito could very well have madara forces in him influencing or even dominating him and best of all no izanagi or izanami required!

    Obito didn't die, the sequence at end of kakashi gaiden was obito in the darkness, as was fitting symbolically for losing an eye, being entombed alive by rocks, and going down the path of darkness in a literary sense, not just literal. It was not kakashi asking himself if he were dead just before waking up. It was artistic juxtaposition between kakashi waking and obito waking. The artistic grounding was the sequence was fixated to the "cornerstone " or "keystone " panel of kakashi and obito's eyes and faces overlapping. This is not a stretch of interpretation, anyone who writes or draws comics will see that. It was easy back then assume it was kakashi waking after his battle because there were no wild tobi expecayor suspicions that many years ago when kakashi gaiden came out.

    If madara had kept tabs on Amy uchiha of importance in a way nagato was secretly watched and manipulated and how orochimaru had secret tabs on little kabuto then madara could have witnessed obito granting his sharrto kakashi, a non uchiha, and also heard kakashi's claim to protect rin (with obito's gift) . Madara then prevents obito's death and then orchestrates the scenario where rin dies, probably begging on obito as events tragically unfolded for rin and kakashi. Kakashi was never something to sneeze at but you bet madara was powerful enough to inject that venom and hopelessness because, ITS EXACTLY HOW HE TURNED NAGATO INTO PEIN! There aren't many likely candidates we know of in the manga with the ability to defeat kakashi that would bevable to intenyionally create a failure of a hero and rub it in obito's face as a broken promise to a dying friends entrusted wish. Madara would have been sick with himself seeing obito act according to everything madara hates and despises , especially cooperation with "weaker' non uchiha. Madara just couldn't help "fixing that whole situation. The best angle was madara wanting 9 tails, obito was the pupil of the 8 tails jinchiriki's husband. Madara hadvevety reason to take interest in obito, once he finds the chance to take him when everyone thought him dead. Obito's MEMORIES,especially useful for Intel on obito's sensei, would be free reign for someone like madara. We have reason, we have motive, we have reason to believe it.

    Madara faked his own death, for generations he only lived as memory or legend in their minds. Madara is tied to many fake deaths and he "helped" obito fake his and "corrected" his errors of being an uchiha nice Guy. Obito was too conveniently tied to many things madara wanted and its easy to see once you sit and think about it.
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    Obito is Tobirama's great grandson. The proof is in the pudding.

  8. #18
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    I'll go about this little game another way. Does anyone have an irrefutable argument as to why Tobi couldn't be Obito? I know none of you do but I'll play along.

  9. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Zero Phoenix View Post
    I'll go about this little game another way. Does anyone have an irrefutable argument as to why Tobi couldn't be Obito? I know none of you do but I'll play along.
    I don't necessarily endorse this post, and while not "irrefutable", I did find some of the points mentioned worthy of discussion. And since the thread in which it was posted possessed little to no rebuttals to his theory, I want to see if someone on this site will be better at doing so. I'm unaware if this site prohibits linking to another one so I'll simple give the credit in-name.


    Quote Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood
    Ideals
    Ok, last chapter ( for future reference, 594 ) really gave me a bad vibe, it pratically screamed Obito when he personally attacked Kakashi and Gai.
    I never was someone who believed in the whole Tobito theory in the first place, and since I've got nothing better to do at the moment, I will try to explain why the Tobito theory doesn't make any sense whatsoever.
    I'm not saying that Tobi is not Obito, because Kishi in this arc made asspulls, retcons and plot holes to and fro, and this whole Tobito theory would simply be the last nail on Kishi's credibility as an author coffin.
    I'll go by points:

    The first, most important point of them all.
    What make Obito ( a Naruto wannabe ) change idea in the time span of 1 or 2 years?
    The same Obito believing in heroes and giving Kakashi his famous phrase, why would he make a speech on how the world doesn't need any heroes?.
    We can easily see how Tobi and Obito share two, very different ideals, and unless he was brainwashed by someone, it would make no sense whatsoever for such a radical change.

    Also, why harbour such a hate for his former sensei, his wife and his child to the point of covering the latter with paper bombs?
    The same Yondaime that teached him and Kakashi about teamwork?
    Remember Obito calling Kakashi captain as a sign of peace because Yondaime explained to him that Kakashi's life was the hardest of them all, asking him to understand where he comes from?

    Timeline

    We know the Kyuubi's attack happened 1, 2 years at best after Kakashi's Gaiden, since Kakashi and Gai seem 14, 15 at best.
    Here we see how an adult physique ( Kurenai's father ) isn't even comparable to the kids, while here we see Tobi having the same physique as Yondaime.
    Obito never was renowed to have a peculiar height or bulk ( he seems on the short side ), so it doesn't make sense for him to obtain the body of an adult in a 1-2 years span.
    Still it isn't a valid point, so I'll provide others:

    Do you have any idea how long I've waited for this moment?
    A 16 years old saying that? After 1-2 years passed?
    Are 2 years such a huge span of time to wait?
    But wait, there is more:

    The same Tobi that Kabuto knows not to be the real Madara saying, in front of Kabuto and Zetsu, both knowing his real identity, that he obtained Hashirama's tissue during that battle?
    Maybe I forgot something, but as I recall, Hashirama died way before Obito was even born.
    But there is more still.

    Tobi was the one that "created" Akatsuki, and the one to gave Nagato the Rin'negan, the same Nagato Madara seem to know.
    Wasn't Nagato, like, a lot older than Obito? He was Jiraiya's student, meaning he should have at least Yondaime's age, if not older.

    Not counting also his knowledge about both Uchiha's jutsus and Uchiha's history, why would Obito have this reaction when talking about Izuna?
    It was the only reaction he had, even when talking about the Uchiha's massacre or his banishment he was impassible.
    Why then responding to Izuna?

    Last proof?
    Madara personally knows Tobi, the same Madara that was resurrected by Edo Tensei at the same state of his death, meaning Madara likely "died" around 30-40 years of age, judging by his overall aspect.
    Was Obito even born? Remember, at Madara and Hashirama's prime an old fart like Hiruzen was just a kid

    Ability

    We know that Obito was a funny guy, but he was no genius, hell he was pretty average.
    Yet the same Obito, in 2 years, managed to:

    -gain enormous knowledge on seals
    -Managing to control the Kyuubi with a 3 tomoe Sharingan, a feat that only Madara Uchiha can apparently do
    -Making a contract with Kyuubi
    -Having knowledge, skills and abilities that no normal ninja can have, associating him to Madara once again.
    -Having superior abilities than Yondaime, someone hailed as the greatest prodigy of his era, matching him in combat while controlling the Kyuubi at the same time
    -Already making plans for Infinite Tsukuyomi, so gaining knowledge on Rikudou Sennin and the Juubi, knowledge being long forgotten

    Seems pretty unbelievable to me.

    Conclusions

    Unless severe PIS were to be exploited, Tobi being Obito should be impossible, unless this is, as many before have said, Obito's lifeless body being the host of Madara's eyes, and adapted through Zetsu's substance.
    Or something outrageous like time-travel, or the like.

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Infinitum View Post
    I don't necessarily endorse this post, and while not "irrefutable", I did find some of the points mentioned worthy of discussion. And since the thread in which it was posted possessed little to no rebuttals to his theory, I want to see if someone on this site will be better at doing so. I'm unaware if this site prohibits linking to another one so I'll simple give the credit in-name.
    I know Uchiha Blood. He's..., well I won't go there. Let's just say I know him. Allow me to explain how this works.


    The first, most important point of them all.
    What make Obito ( a Naruto wannabe ) change idea in the time span of 1 or 2 years?
    The same Obito believing in heroes and giving Kakashi his famous phrase, why would he make a speech on how the world doesn't need any heroes?.
    We can easily see how Tobi and Obito share two, very different ideals, and unless he was brainwashed by someone, it would make no sense whatsoever for such a radical change.


    This entire section is contradicted by the Narutoverse itself. We've seen many characters change because of war, death, disappointment, and so forth. Orochimaru was a good kid, even after losing his parents. Hell he was still a good person when he was a sannin but over the years, seeing the death of his comrades and the effects of war he was driven batshit insane. We've seen how Kabuto used to be a gentle soul and it only took 1 or 2 years for him to lose it thanks to Danzo's machinations. And let's not even get started on Nagato who as a child was a pacifist who later grew into an adult advocating widespread genocide. So please, there is plenty in the Narutoverse that can cause a character to undergo a radical change.



    Also, why harbour such a hate for his former sensei, his wife and his child to the point of covering the latter with paper bombs?
    The same Yondaime that teached him and Kakashi about teamwork?
    Remember Obito calling Kakashi captain as a sign of peace because Yondaime explained to him that Kakashi's life was the hardest of them all, asking him to understand where he comes from?


    Didn't Nagato harbor a lot of love and respect for his master only for it to turn to disgust? He even went so far as to kill Jiraiya. Didn't Orochimaru admire Sarutobi who taught him and his team about working together and familial bonds? Hmmmm, didn't Orochimaru later kill Sarutobi after the world warped him? Hmmmmm, didn't Sasuke try to kill Kakashi a hundred or so chapters ago? Hmmmmm, we've seen a lot of characters love and respect their teachers in the beginning, only to be warped by the pain of war and turn to hate their mentors.



    Timeline

    We know the Kyuubi's attack happened 1, 2 years at best after Kakashi's Gaiden, since Kakashi and Gai seem 14, 15 at best.
    Here we see how an adult physique ( Kurenai's father ) isn't even comparable to the kids, while here we see Tobi having the same physique as Yondaime.
    Obito never was renowed to have a peculiar height or bulk ( he seems on the short side ), so it doesn't make sense for him to obtain the body of an adult in a 1-2 years span.
    Still it isn't a valid point, so I'll provide others:


    Uchiha Blood never heard of puberty it seems.



    Do you have any idea how long I've waited for this moment?
    A 16 years old saying that? After 1-2 years passed?
    Are 2 years such a huge span of time to wait?


    Uh yeah. Remember when Sasuke bumped into Itachi at that hotel where Akatsuki was tailing Naruto? And remember when Sasuke said "I've waited my whole life for this moment"? Sasuke was only 14 years old. Itachi went batshit when Sasuke was six. My point is for a kid going through a tragedy any amount of time is a long-time to them.




    But wait, there is more:

    The same Tobi that Kabuto knows not to be the real Madara saying, in front of Kabuto and Zetsu, both knowing his real identity, that he obtained Hashirama's tissue during that battle?
    Maybe I forgot something, but as I recall, Hashirama died way before Obito was even born.
    But there is more still.


    This has been explained at least a billion times. Orochimaru was in possession of Hashirama's cells which were used in the creation of Zetsu. We're never told how Orochimaru came to be in possession of them but Uchiha Blood's argument, like most of his posts has no point to make. The issue here wouldn't be how Obito got Hashirama's cells but how Orochimaru got them in the first place. Orochimaru performed hundreds of experiments on kids and Yamamoto was the only one who survived. It's entirely possible (even likely) that Danzo was also involved in these experiments and may have carried them out on Obito who is now Tobi. Orochimaru himself was probably the one who carried out such experiments. These facts set forth by me, though always good are probably not neccessary as Tobi is in possession of Hashirama's cells via Zetsu. I don't recall the manga saying that Tobi himself carried out the experiments but rather he was a recipient of their benefits.


    Tobi was the one that "created" Akatsuki, and the one to gave Nagato the Rin'negan, the same Nagato Madara seem to know.
    Wasn't Nagato, like, a lot older than Obito? He was Jiraiya's student, meaning he should have at least Yondaime's age, if not older.



    I answered this in another thread so I won't waste my time refuting it again.



    Not counting also his knowledge about both Uchiha's jutsus and Uchiha's history, why would Obito have this reaction when talking about Izuna?
    It was the only reaction he had, even when talking about the Uchiha's massacre or his banishment he was impassible.
    Why then responding to Izuna?


    It's called "acting." Sasuke had just lost his brother (in a way). In order to manipulate Sasuke, Tobi needed him to think that "as Madara" he experienced a similar loss. It's the oldest trick in the book. You make your hostage empathize with you in order to get from them their cooperation and in some cases their allegiance.



    Last proof?
    Madara personally knows Tobi, the same Madara that was resurrected by Edo Tensei at the same state of his death, meaning Madara likely "died" around 30-40 years of age, judging by his overall aspect.
    Was Obito even born? Remember, at Madara and Hashirama's prime an old fart like Hiruzen was just a kid


    Madara knows many things he shouldn't. Madara himself is a rabbit hole. The only reason I won't refute this is because there is A LOT about Madara and his revivial that doesn't make any sense.




    Ability
    We know that Obito was a funny guy, but he was no genius, hell he was pretty average.
    Yet the same Obito, in 2 years, managed to:

    -gain enormous knowledge on seals
    -Managing to control the Kyuubi with a 3 tomoe Sharingan, a feat that only Madara Uchiha can apparently do
    -Making a contract with Kyuubi
    -Having knowledge, skills and abilities that no normal ninja can have, associating him to Madara once again.
    -Having superior abilities than Yondaime, someone hailed as the greatest prodigy of his era, matching him in combat while controlling the Kyuubi at the same time
    -Already making plans for Infinite Tsukuyomi, so gaining knowledge on Rikudou Sennin and the Juubi, knowledge being long forgotten




    And in only four years we've seen Naruto go from an F student who couldn't execute the basic ninjutsu (shadow clones) to a character who has surpassed pretty much the entire Narutoverse sans maybe, maybe three characters. This was a failure. Who became a legend. In four years. Let me play that back. Naruto, who used to be the equivalent of a dropout has long surpassed Jiraiya and Minato and has, at this point, been compared to Rikudou Sennin himself by several characters in only four years. Think about that.
    Last edited by Zero Phoenix; 08-23-2012 at 04:33 PM.

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