Naruto 597 Discussion / 598 Predictions

[Yoru]

Well, Gai's reaction points to Obito, but that is Gai, Kakashi don't want to believe it, because frankly there are other possibilities, while Naruto doesn't care about assumptions. He knows that Tobi has to be stopped and goes to action, everything will be answered after he beats him one way or the other.

Yea, Gai seemed to suspect something but even kakashi said "You are...", but then tobi told him to shut up.

I also don't understand why did kakshi start panting so heavily after tobi talked to him...is he having some kind of presentiment?

[Rlinfamous]

It still can't be discounted through any translation i have read that "fake madara" was part of the plan, not the planner. = orochimaru + madara. The conveniant use of pronoun in the dialogue between two shinobi "meeting" for the first time (kabuto and madara) is really quite strange, especially when each pronoun implicitly fits both orochimaru and tobi (IM his assistant) . It belongs in the theory thread but any chapter discussion until after 600 is going to rely upon the vocal opposition or support of theories old and new. Good times. Can't wait for answers to appear after the dust settles.

Edit: question for zero, rlin, and Mr. Paulbee.. we know madara survived the vote battle but isn't it funny he lives much longer than a natural lifespan but dies anyway of unknown causes? Don't you think it likely he merely completed his natural lifespan in "secret" but died before meeting nagato? The real question is doesn't it make more sense if much of his planning was done communicating from beyond the grave and his retainer merely informed him of nagato? I think madaras words technically did not guarantee he met him, just knew of him.

I agree it seems very possible that Madara worked with Orochimaru, as both of them have performed experiments to recreate the power of the Rikudou. Perhaps Madara had Orochimaru help him use Hashirama's power, which Orochimaru had cultivated and performed experiments on. If Orochimaru had been granted access to Madara's DNA, it would explain how Kabuto was able to use his Edo Tensei on Madara... otherwise, how would Kabuto have even gotten Madara's DNA in the first place? It's unlikely anyone knew where/when Madara died.

As for the issue of Madara's death, I believe he possessed incredible longevity due to Hashirama's cells, and did actually survive to at least learn about Nagato. I believe Madara died due to over-use of the Rinnegan, or possibly through some other property of the Rinnegan (perhaps in naturally drains life force from the user. I believe it was either because his mastery of Hashirama's power was incomplete (hence Kabuto stating that Madara was completed beyond what he was in his prime) or else the Rinnegan inevitably kills its users. Maybe even the Rikudou died in this way.

[POW]

Ok, I understand you think obito can't be Tobi. I see your points and i get them.
I think too it's very possible for him to be Izuna, but don't make a freakin' idiot out of obito. The fact he wasn't really good at ninja skills and wasn't a genius at planning doesen't mean he was dim-witted. He just didn't have natural talent, but he was skilled enough to become a chunin, that means he was more intelligent and better at ninja skills than naruto was at his age. Now naruto is an uber powerful character thanks to his power ups and he can pull off really good tactics during battle. If Obito awakened the mangekyou sharingan, that would make a huge power-up for him: his technique is very handy and can be useful in every situation.
As for the great moon eye plan, it doesen't mean Tobi planned everything alone: Madara made the plan in great detail, concerning the biju, sasuke, gedo mazou...Tobi is only following instructions, and no, Obito is not such a dumbass as you picture him. Following isntructions is probably the easiest thing in the world, plus skills can be trained, transforming an uchiha looser with great determination into a powerful shinobi. Madara even left him Zetsu for assistance: Zetsu seems pretty smart himself and he knows the plan in great details, so he can help out Tobi if something goes wrong.
And as for Obito's motivation against senju, we don't know virtually anything about Obito's past. We don't know who his parents were, or his grandparents. We don't know what he went trough in his childhood. As Zero once suggested it seems Obito must have awakened sharingan some time before Kannabi bridge, cuz when he did he had immediatly 2 tomoes in each sharingan. When one awakenes sharingan for the firts time, as kishi shows us in sasuke's case, he has only 1 tomoe in each eye. That means Obito went trough some hasty moments in his past. Maybe there is enough traumatic experiences n his past to make him hate senju. OR Tobi is just playing Madara's part while talking to naruto about the senju.
I think there is a possibility madara infused Tobi with all his memories and feelings and knowledge before dying, to make it easier for tobi to act like him.

Even though we lack evidence, you cannot simply put an end to this theory, because you don't know what kishi has in mind. Make your objections but don't attack the theory like that. Respect all speculation, because you could be wrong as well. Even though i'd like tobi to be obito, i respect the possibility for him to be Izuna and I take it into account.

The Obito theory makes no sense it is much like the theory back in the day that Pain was really Minato because they have similar hair style. The most obvious reason why is the fact that MS leads to blindness yet Tobi has been using his eye for years with no pain or obvious loss in vision.

The idea that in 1 year Obito could have developed to the level to be able to take down several ANBU the 3rds wife and go toe to toe with the 4th Hokage and control the Kyuubi is not even realistic. Sasuke who was a genius trained for 2 1/2 years and still would have trouble pulling this off.


- To be clear Sasuke first awakened his Sharingan during the Uchiha massacre but fell unconscious from the shock and didn't notice. He reawakened it later and it was 2 tomoe in one eye and 1 tomoe in the the other giving him 3/6 tomoe's.

How this works in other Uchiha is might be similar or maybe it because he awakened it twice.

I agree it seems very possible that Madara worked with Orochimaru, as both of them have performed experiments to recreate the power of the Rikudou. Perhaps Madara had Orochimaru help him use Hashirama's power, which Orochimaru had cultivated and performed experiments on. If Orochimaru had been granted access to Madara's DNA, it would explain how Kabuto was able to use his Edo Tensei on Madara... otherwise, how would Kabuto have even gotten Madara's DNA in the first place? It's unlikely anyone knew where/when Madara died.

As for the issue of Madara's death, I believe he possessed incredible longevity due to Hashirama's cells, and did actually survive to at least learn about Nagato. I believe Madara died due to over-use of the Rinnegan, or possibly through some other property of the Rinnegan (perhaps in naturally drains life force from the user. I believe it was either because his mastery of Hashirama's power was incomplete (hence Kabuto stating that Madara was completed beyond what he was in his prime) or else the Rinnegan inevitably kills its users. Maybe even the Rikudou died in this way.

No its not possible Kabuto clearly stated they theorized Madara didnt die at the VOE. Oro didn't know for sure but theorized Madara might still be alive. Just as they theorized that the sharingan can evolve into the Rinnegan

I also don't understand why did kakshi start panting so heavily after tobi talked to him...is he having some kind of presentiment?

Kakashi used his MS several times along with chidori & hes been fighting Bijuu before this he must be exhausted. Hell I'm surprised he hasn't passed out already.

[Rlinfamous]

The Obito theory makes no sense it is much like the theory back in the day that Pain was really Minato because they have similar hair style. The most obvious reason why is the fact that MS leads to blindness yet Tobi has been using his eye for years with no pain or obvious loss in vision.

The idea that in 1 year Obito could have developed to the level to be able to take down several ANBU the 3rds wife and go toe to toe with the 4th Hokage and control the Kyuubi is not even realistic. Sasuke who was a genius trained for 2 1/2 years and still would have trouble pulling this off.


- To be clear Sasuke first awakened his Sharingan during the Uchiha massacre but fell unconscious from the shock and didn't notice. He reawakened it later and it was 2 tomoe in one eye and 1 tomoe in the the other giving him 3/6 tomoe's.

How this works in other Uchiha is might be similar or maybe it because he awakened it twice.






No its not possible Kabuto clearly stated they theorized Madara didnt die at the VOE. Oro didn't know for sure but theorized Madara might still be alive. Just as they theorized that the sharingan can evolve into the Rinnegan




Kakashi used his MS several times along with chidori & hes been fighting Bijuu before this he must be exhausted. Hell I'm surprised he hasn't passed out already.

Good point about Kabuto stating that he and Oro had simply theorized on those issues. I'd forgotten that with all the recent "evidence" brought forth suggesting that Orochimaru had a deeper connection to Madara, but I guess for now we'll have to take Kabuto at his word that there was no alliance.

[Afro Thunda]

I also don't understand why did kakshi start panting so heavily after tobi talked to him...is he having some kind of presentiment?

Kakashi used his MS several times along with chidori & hes been fighting Bijuu before this he must be exhausted. Hell I'm surprised he hasn't passed out already.

Kakashi's breathing heavily because Tobi just brought up some pretty sensitive memories from his past. Not because he's necessarily exhausted.

[paulbee]

I wonder how the letters theory applies to something that was written in Japonese in the first place.
Maybe the prononciation in original Japonese is reverse. Then the letters theory has some credibility. But counting the letters definately doesn't apply.
Someone who has enough understanding of Japonese language could probably have a usefull opinion on this. But now someone who has enough understanding of Japonese language probably doesn't read the english version and is probably not on this forum.

Sorry I missed this Brilliant point until now. Very Good. In Japanese, Tobi and Obito may not spell anything alike at all.

I dunno about that. I've controlled the characters heights in the databook.
First of all, we haven't really seen tobi's body during the fight with minato cuz he was fully cloaked. We don't know if he had a body of an adult or a grown teen. In any case:

-Tobi is said to be 175cm tall.

-Minato is 179.2 cm tall. So tobi<Minato.

-Kakashi at his current age is 181 cm tall. so in the tobi vs minato battle he could have been around tobi's height.
.................

..............

ETC

Yoru, I'd like you to please refer to the Image Below:-

Spoiler!

Note very Carefully the size and physiques of Kakashi, Gai, and all their Classmates. They are all similar, and they are all smaller than the adults. I am asserting that not withstanding any other source, if Obito had lived, he would have had a similar physique and size as the rest of his classmates that we see in this picture. There is no reason to believe that he would have grown as large as the adults.

Now if we compare Tobi to Yondaime or any other adult ninja, there is no noticeable disparity in their physiques and comparative sizes as we obviously notice between the adults and Kakashi's classmates.


Now Look at the Image below:-

Spoiler!

This is Visual evidence that show/proves that Tobi at the time of these images was physically comparable/identical to the adults, and not to Kakashi, Gai, or any other of Obito's age group.

For The person in the image to be Obito, he would have had to have undergone extensive physical alteration, and I dare say His Mind, and Memories, Skills, and Knowledge would have to have been extensively artificially enhanced also.

[knife eater]

Who was kabuto talking to when he stated his and oro's theories on vote and rinnegan? I'm sorry but while he might be telling people what he presents as theory he keeps the actual truth only known to himself. He was raised the way of a spy since childhood and has rarely represented or given a plain truth since introduced in the chunnin exams, it was always hypothesis this or theory that, never the plain truth he and orochimaru held.

You don't get into akatsuki, have DNA of hashirama and madara, enough to significantly enhance or change an ultimate shinobi into an even more ultimate shinobi, oro operating in the organization as one of the top geniuses of his generation, oros main pupil a shrewd and genius level spy, you don't operate in akatsuki with that sort if reputation, in the presence of pein and tobi, know tobi's secrets enough to call his bluff, lie about the reasons for quitting akatsuki when the akatsuki 's mission statement was known to them to be a front. Im sorry but akatsuki as an organization never played orochimaru, orochimaru and kabuto's actions were always such that they were a step ahead or very surprising to tobi.

They, to me, had more going than a "theory" madara had not died in vote. If orochimaru was in league with madara then tobi, being part (f the plan and not the originator, can't be allowed to know depending on how he us used and needs to be behaved.

A true spy does not make certain to everybody the information which is concrete for him. Kabuto is still a spy and his intentions and angle still a Toss up mystery, anything he says to anybody will merely be a hypothesis or theory depending on which motivation is bring massaged for his audience.

Case in point, did they merely hypothesize madara survived past vote? If merely hypothesis then kabuto would not have told madara his edo state was enhanced beyond the prime of his life! Madara seemed surprised because the prime state he achieved was during his time after the legend if vote he needed the world to believe! "You know about my prime?" Kabuto didn't tell madara "oh, i don't know, its only this theory i cobbled together based on uchiha ancient tablet heresay and my old boss's belief about hashirama"

Orochimaru and kabuto clearly KNEW shit! Madara just had not yet been introduced to kabuto.

Also, just to stoke the flames, orochimaru left akatsuki, itachi joins akatsuki (we know what he did to orochimaru LOL(, long haired masked man ceases to appear between the time of uchiha massacre and itachi joining akatsuki. Short haired masked man raises to prominence.

IF long haired masked man was madara, then madara dying and orochimaru leaving akatsuki around the same time makes since if tobi is the pawn or piece, not the mastermind. We know he ISNT the mastermind because he just said he EMBRACED the moon's eye plan in such a way that he discovered the plan in motion and it answered his problems which can be read about in his talk no jutsu to kakashi. His whole behavior towards kakashi is not that if someone who was a part of creating the moons eye plan, it was madara and when madara says to kabuto "you know about our plan? " he can't mean tobi, he means orochimaru. "His doing?" Does not mean tobi, otherwise kabuto would not say within the same two breaths "IM his assistant" but also "fake madara act according to plan". His words were entirely spoken in different attitudes and that is only necessary when referring to two separate people. There would be also no need for the convoluted reliance on pronouns in a dialogu of madara catechising kabuto for assurances.

Tobi's entire shift in attitude when talking to kakashi shows him to be the type of person with the perfect emotional makeup to be exploited by the likes if madara or orochimaru and tobi is totally beginning to lose his cool the same way any pawn or piece of a larger plot would, clearly he is not on the level to be partner to the ruthless bully madara or the nearly all knowing wisdom lusting orochimaru. He is someone else being used, EXACTLY LIKE PEIN WAS WHEN HE WAS PRESENTED AS HEAD CHEESE OF BAD GUYISMS IN SHINOBI TIMES! Pein was pawn, so is tobi, they were never WORTHY to be madara's partner but had the perfect conditions in their life to be exploited.

[Afro Thunda]

Spoiler!

Who was kabuto talking to when he stated his and oro's theories on vote and rinnegan? I'm sorry but while he might be telling people what he presents as theory he keeps the actual truth only known to himself. He was raised the way of a spy since childhood and has rarely represented or given a plain truth since introduced in the chunnin exams, it was always hypothesis this or theory that, never the plain truth he and orochimaru held.

You don't get into akatsuki, have DNA of hashirama and madara, enough to significantly enhance or change an ultimate shinobi into an even more ultimate shinobi, oro operating in the organization as one of the top geniuses of his generation, oros main pupil a shrewd and genius level spy, you don't operate in akatsuki with that sort if reputation, in the presence of pein and tobi, know tobi's secrets enough to call his bluff, lie about the reasons for quitting akatsuki when the akatsuki 's mission statement was known to them to be a front. Im sorry but akatsuki as an organization never played orochimaru, orochimaru and kabuto's actions were always such that they were a step ahead or very surprising to tobi.

They, to me, had more going than a "theory" madara had not died in vote. If orochimaru was in league with madara then tobi, being part (f the plan and not the originator, can't be allowed to know depending on how he us used and needs to be behaved.

A true spy does not make certain to everybody the information which is concrete for him. Kabuto is still a spy and his intentions and angle still a Toss up mystery, anything he says to anybody will merely be a hypothesis or theory depending on which motivation is bring massaged for his audience.

Case in point, did they merely hypothesize madara survived past vote? If merely hypothesis then kabuto would not have told madara his edo state was enhanced beyond the prime of his life! Madara seemed surprised because the prime state he achieved was during his time after the legend if vote he needed the world to believe! "You know about my prime?" Kabuto didn't tell madara "oh, i don't know, its only this theory i cobbled together based on uchiha ancient tablet heresay and my old boss's belief about hashirama"

Orochimaru and kabuto clearly KNEW shit! Madara just had not yet been introduced to kabuto.

Also, just to stoke the flames, orochimaru left akatsuki, itachi joins akatsuki (we know what he did to orochimaru LOL(, long haired masked man ceases to appear between the time of uchiha massacre and itachi joining akatsuki. Short haired masked man raises to prominence.

IF long haired masked man was madara, then madara dying and orochimaru leaving akatsuki around the same time makes since if tobi is the pawn or piece, not the mastermind. We know he ISNT the mastermind because he just said he EMBRACED the moon's eye plan in such a way that he discovered the plan in motion and it answered his problems which can be read about in his talk no jutsu to kakashi. His whole behavior towards kakashi is not that if someone who was a part of creating the moons eye plan, it was madara and when madara says to kabuto "you know about our plan? " he can't mean tobi, he means orochimaru. "His doing?" Does not mean tobi, otherwise kabuto would not say within the same two breaths "IM his assistant" but also "fake madara act according to plan". His words were entirely spoken in different attitudes and that is only necessary when referring to two separate people. There would be also no need for the convoluted reliance on pronouns in a dialogu of madara catechising kabuto for assurances.

Tobi's entire shift in attitude when talking to kakashi shows him to be the type of person with the perfect emotional makeup to be exploited by the likes if madara or orochimaru and tobi is totally beginning to lose his cool the same way any pawn or piece of a larger plot would, clearly he is not on the level to be partner to the ruthless bully madara or the nearly all knowing wisdom lusting orochimaru. He is someone else being used, EXACTLY LIKE PEIN WAS WHEN HE WAS PRESENTED AS HEAD CHEESE OF BAD GUYISMS IN SHINOBI TIMES! Pein was pawn, so is tobi, they were never WORTHY to be madara's partner but had the perfect conditions in their life to be exploited.

If I remember correctly, Kabuto was talking to Madara through Muu (2nd/3rd? Tsuchikage) just after Muu summoned Madara.

[POW]

To add to Pauls point I have exact data from the databook:

Tobi
Personal Data

Height: 175 cm
Weight: 55.9 kg


Minato
Personal Data

Height: 179.2 cm
Weight: 66.1 kg


Obito
Personal Data

Height: 154.2 cm
Weight: 44.5 kg

[Yoru]

Yoru, I'd like you to please refer to the Image Below:-

Spoiler!

Note very Carefully the size and physiques of Kakashi, Gai, and all their Classmates. They are all similar, and they are all smaller than the adults. I am asserting that not withstanding any other source, if Obito had lived, he would have had a similar physique and size as the rest of his classmates that we see in this picture. There is no reason to believe that he would have grown as large as the adults.

Now if we compare Tobi to Yondaime or any other adult ninja, there is no noticeable disparity in their physiques and comparative sizes as we obviously notice between the adults and Kakashi's classmates.


Now Look at the Image below:-

Spoiler!

This is Visual evidence that show/proves that Tobi at the time of these images was physically comparable/identical to the adults, and not to Kakashi, Gai, or any other of Obito's age group.

For The person in the image to be Obito, he would have had to have undergone extensive physical alteration, and I dare say His Mind, and Memories, Skills, and Knowledge would have to have been extensively artificially enhanced also.

Ok Paul. I clearly see what the evidence points at. I'll try to respond to that with some assumptions, even though I know they won't convince anyone...
While it's true that kakashi and gai were smaller than adults, I don't know if we can apply the same genetic traits to the Uchiha clansmen. Just take a look here:

http://www.mangareader.net/93-405-9/...apter-400.html

WHen Itachi killed his clan we was 13, yet his height surpassed Madara's shoulders (yes I believe that was real madara, just look at his unique pose, that our tobi never makes, madara on the other hand, yes), who was an adult. Itachi was pretty tall for a 13 years old child. While he was this tall, kakashi at his age was surely shorter than him. My bet is that the uchiha grow and become mature more quickly than normal ppl do.
Now take a look here:

http://www.mangareader.net/93-246-5/...apter-241.html

Do you see Kakashi and Obito's height compared? Obito is a lot taller than kakashi I dare say. If my assumption about the uchiha growing earlier and better than the others is true, then if Obito enetered a phase when one suddenly grows a lot, by the age of 15-16 during kyuubi's attack he would have been a lot taller than kakashi also. My bet is that he was 16 by then. While in the first part of the manga, Itachi is 17 and looks pretty much like an adult. 16-17 are pretty close so i bet an average uchiha would be the same height as itachi was.

Then, if obito started training under a master like Madara, i'm sure the training would be wxhaustive enough to grow him some muscles. As for the skills and knowledge Tobi has, I dare to assume Madara gave them to him artificially: trough genjutsu he could have implanted all his memories into Obito, and he could have shown him how to perform incredible techniques in a similar way. Then what did Tobi do that makes him so expert in the eyes of naruto fans?

-He tamed the kyuubi: any uchiha could do that, especially one that was taught by the greates uchiha of all times.
-He fought with minato and coped with him for some time: Yes he did. All thanks to his eye power. If he hadn't had his MS he would be long dead. Someone said that even a genius like sasuke didn't reach Tobi's level after 2 years of training with Oro, but I say that if he has Obito's MS, then he would be as dangerous as he is. AFterall what does the power of his MS grant you? Let's see: you can become virtually intangible, you can teleport yourself anywhere you want, even behind your enemies backs without them having time to respond your attacks, that's how Tobi killed the ANBU protecting Kushina. Yea, a power like that makes you nearly invincible. Ah, and it's not like Tobi won the battle against Minato: the 4th hokage still kicked his butt and trolled him all the way.
-He used the Uchiha Kaenjin barrier: A powerful uchiha technique, but any uchiha can use it if they know how, plus now Tobi has rinnegan which grants him huge power.

@POW

What you say about spamming MS without going blind and no visible pain doesen't affect my theory not one bit: even if Tobi were Izuna he would still go blind by spamming MS so much. The reason I think he can use it so much without going blind, is the fact he possesses both Senju and uchiha cells, as he stated during the battle with konan. We see very well how senju cells enhance the durability of sharingan techniques and the sharingan light as well.