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  1. #101
    Senior Member Zero's Avatar
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    Well, Madara never said that he cooperated with Tobi, rather he only said "It's his doing" and not "their doing" (560 page 3). Don't you find it strange ? Zetsu is an important factor (the black one even more ?) that seemingly helped Tobi from the beginning and even gives Tobi spare parts. What's more, Zetsu could have taken the form of Madara with Madara's chakra (they probably have it somewhere) and thus could have been considered a "fake Madara" (561 page 13)... it's possible that Madara doesn't even know about Tobi.

    People are saying that Tobi is Izuna because he knows too much, but Madara suggested that it's (hard but) possible to put the puzzle together by reading the Uchiha Stone Monument (560 page 16). What's more, Itachi mentions that he saw Tobi going to the Uchiha hideout to read the Monument (590 page 17), that's a strange and unnecessary risky action for someone that supposedly already knows everything...

    The information about the jinchuriki seal weakening at the time of giving life, would be impossible for Madara to obtain, unless he somehow got his hands on another bijuu, sealed it in a women, impregnated her and then watched if there is any weakness in it. The only one who could potentially obtain this info, is Zetsu (unless someone betrayed, but that is unlikely).


    I'm actually wondering about how So6p's Mystic Face looked like. If from Kurama you gain the Heart Opener aka Talk to the Kitty (it's special property is that it makes anyone that sees it, want talk about themselves, thus allowing later on for Talk-no-jutsu to work ), then what kind of marks had So6p obtained after becoming the Jyubi's jinchuriki ?



  2. #102
    Senior Member paulbee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zero View Post
    Well, Madara never said that he cooperated with Tobi, rather he only said "It's his doing" and not "their doing" (560 page 3). Don't you find it strange ? Zetsu is an important factor (the black one even more ?) that seemingly helped Tobi from the beginning and even gives Tobi spare parts. What's more, Zetsu could have taken the form of Madara with Madara's chakra (they probably have it somewhere) and thus could have been considered a "fake Madara" (561 page 13)... it's possible that Madara doesn't even know about Tobi.

    People are saying that Tobi is Izuna because he knows too much, but Madara suggested that it's (hard but) possible to put the puzzle together by reading the Uchiha Stone Monument (560 page 16). What's more, Itachi mentions that he saw Tobi going to the Uchiha hideout to read the Monument (590 page 17), that's a strange and unnecessary risky action for someone that supposedly already knows everything...

    The information about the jinchuriki seal weakening at the time of giving life, would be impossible for Madara to obtain, unless he somehow got his hands on another bijuu, sealed it in a women, impregnated her and then watched if there is any weakness in it. The only one who could potentially obtain this info, is Zetsu (unless someone betrayed, but that is unlikely).


    I'm actually wondering about how So6p's Mystic Face looked like. If from Kurama you gain the Heart Opener aka Talk to the Kitty (it's special property is that it makes anyone that sees it, want talk about themselves, thus allowing later on for Talk-no-jutsu to work ), then what kind of marks had So6p obtained after becoming the Jyubi's jinchuriki ?
    Zero,

    I can't really get a grip on this post and I'd like to examine it a little.

    Quote: Madara never said that he cooperated with Tobi, rather he only said "It's his doing" and not "their doing"

    Madara was referring to his Edo Zombie Condition/State.

    Quote: People are saying that Tobi is Izuna because he knows too much, but Madara suggested that it's (hard but) possible to put the puzzle together by reading the Uchiha Stone Monument

    The reference to the stone Monument was ONLY, about the Sharingan evolving to the Rinnegan, The way he put it was "The secretes of my body", while the Izuna Theorists are impressed about Tobi's Knowledge about Madara, Sharingan, and Uchiha matters in general and at depth.

    On information about the weakening seal: It appears that Mikoto's seal weakenednwhen she gave birth. This is information that would have been known to top Konoha officials, but Sharingans are good at extracting information, Are they not?

    Nobody is saying that Tobi didn't go to the Uchiha hiding place, after all that is probably where Madara himself got his information before he hatched his plan to take Hashirama's cells.

    Finally, It appears you are suggesting that Madara and Tobi are/were not cooperating together:
    fake madara.jpg

    First Madara asks, "Do you know Our Plan as well?", and Last thing Kabuto says is "...Though I am unsure if the fake Madara will act as planned"

    They know each other, they planned together.

    Maybe I misread some of your point , but these are my thought in response.

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  3. #103
    Senior Member knife eater's Avatar
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    It still can't be discounted through any translation i have read that "fake madara" was part of the plan, not the planner. = orochimaru + madara. The conveniant use of pronoun in the dialogue between two shinobi "meeting" for the first time (kabuto and madara) is really quite strange, especially when each pronoun implicitly fits both orochimaru and tobi (IM his assistant) . It belongs in the theory thread but any chapter discussion until after 600 is going to rely upon the vocal opposition or support of theories old and new. Good times. Can't wait for answers to appear after the dust settles.

    Also, i agree, sharingan users can extract info in more ways than simply observations. If danzo can steer a Kage summit then madara can stroll before village brass and ask whatever he pleases before washing his hands clean after the meeting, tobi's genjutsu uncovered the hidden location of yahiko and nagato's resting place quite easily as well.

    Hashirama had kids and grandkids with a jinchuriki and possessed more than one tailed beast. Info on seal intregrity during childbirth is readily available to madara with no need for doujutsu use of any sort.

    The fact that madara cofounded the hidden leaf with hashirama guarantees him pretty much tons of knowledge uncommon to even many jonin
    Tobi knowing certain details, however, can be answered only two ways... not here though :0

    Edit: question for zero, rlin, and Mr. Paulbee.. we know madara survived the vote battle but isn't it funny he lives much longer than a natural lifespan but dies anyway of unknown causes? Don't you think it likely he merely completed his natural lifespan in "secret" but died before meeting nagato? The real question is doesn't it make more sense if much of his planning was done communicating from beyond the grave and his retainer merely informed him of nagato? I think madaras words technically did not guarantee he met him, just knew of him.
    Last edited by knife eater; 08-17-2012 at 05:28 AM.
    _____
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  4. #104
    Senior Member Yoru's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by knife eater View Post
    It still can't be discounted through any translation i have read that "fake madara" was part of the plan, not the planner. = orochimaru + madara. The conveniant use of pronoun in the dialogue between two shinobi "meeting" for the first time (kabuto and madara) is really quite strange, especially when each pronoun implicitly fits both orochimaru and tobi (IM his assistant) . It belongs in the theory thread but any chapter discussion until after 600 is going to rely upon the vocal opposition or support of theories old and new. Good times. Can't wait for answers to appear after the dust settles.

    Also, i agree, sharingan users can extract info in more ways than simply observations. If danzo can steer a Kage summit then madara can stroll before village brass and ask whatever he pleases before washing his hands clean after the meeting, tobi's genjutsu uncovered the hidden location of yahiko and nagato's resting place quite easily as well.

    Hashirama had kids and grandkids with a jinchuriki and possessed more than one tailed beast. Info on seal intregrity during childbirth is readily available to madara with no need for doujutsu use of any sort.

    The fact that madara cofounded the hidden leaf with hashirama guarantees him pretty much tons of knowledge uncommon to even many jonin
    Tobi knowing certain details, however, can be answered only two ways... not here though :0

    Edit: question for zero, rlin, and Mr. Paulbee.. we know madara survived the vote battle but isn't it funny he lives much longer than a natural lifespan but dies anyway of unknown causes? Don't you think it likely he merely completed his natural lifespan in "secret" but died before meeting nagato? The real question is doesn't it make more sense if much of his planning was done communicating from beyond the grave and his retainer merely informed him of nagato? I think madaras words technically did not guarantee he met him, just knew of him.
    SO far I've never heard of a jutsu that permits you to communicate with the dead...
    My bet is that Madara lived long enough to be the one who manipulated Yagura the Mizukage, then he died. But they're only theories.

    BTW
    Mei Terumi the 5 Mizukage was the one who uncovered the secret behind Yagura manipulation by Tobi/madara: if she was the one who ended this, it means she must have clashed with Tobi/madara in order to free the mizukage from genjutsu? But seeing how Yagura's dead, it's more likely Tobi/madara decided to make Yagura go full 3 tails, once he was sure Mei Terumi knew about the manipulation: the seal broke and the biju was free to go (if you notice, whenwe see the sanbi for the first time, he's free to swim in a lake), resulting in Yagura's death. Like this he would not leave traces and would kill the only witness who saw him around.

  5. #105
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    at this point tobi can still be virtually any1, the obvious choices are izuna or obito, but i dont think kishi want to make it that obvious, i think tobi is some1 that we havent really heard of yet, some1 that isnt in the manga yet or maybe tobi is just an experiment and not even human. atm those things are just as viable as any other theory out there, atleast until we get some solid proof which my gut tells me we will get in chapter 600 or i hope we will.

  6. #106
    Scanlator POW's Avatar
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    This Obito theory really needs to die lol it makes less sense the more you think about. Forgetting all the details that don't match does it make sense Madara would leave the future of all his plans to some 14 loser Uchiha who never even got laid.

    What possible motivation would Obito have to work with Madara?

    Sasuke is different his family was executed and his brother made a murderer he has reason to be angry. His hatred is what is being manipulated.


    Izuna being Tobi is far more likely he had the mind set, the skill, the knowledge, the experience, the conviction & the trust of Madara. Madara spoke as if his death and resurrection as if it was part of a plan. Who do think Madara would more likely entrust such important tasks too some noob Uchiha with "no talent" or his brother who sacrificed everything for their dream and had skill on nearly the same level as Madara himself.


    Madara: Well I'm off to die now Resurrect me after your done.
    Obito: ok...wait so how do I activate the MS again I forgot.
    Madara: Dont forget to gather all the tailed beasts challenge the shinobi world and manipulate everyone you some across with superior intellect.
    Obito: ok got it.....um...wait can you repeat that again.
    Madara: You should probably start with the Kyuubi and make sure you attack the village and kill everyone you ever cared about including your master. I'm sure you'll be able to handle all these tasks on your own right?
    Obito: Well I....
    Madara: Great well I knew I could count you! I'l just leave my entire future plans in the palm of a 14 year old who never displayed any superior great skill or insight into anything.
    Obito: I wont let you down... I don't think.
    Madara: This seems legit! Bye X.X




    People thinking Tobi is Obito reminds me of when people thought Pain was Minato because their hair is so similar.


    It's obvious this is the work of the famous Uchiha brothers Madara & Izuna working together they both found ways to cheat death.


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  7. #107
    Senior Member Yoru's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by POW View Post
    This Obito theory really needs to die lol it makes less sense the more you think about. Forgetting all the details that don't match does it make sense Madara would leave the future of all his plans to some 14 loser Uchiha who never even got laid.

    What possible motivation would Obito have to work with Madara?

    Sasuke is different his family was executed and his brother made a murderer he has reason to be angry. His hatred is what is being manipulated.


    Izuna being Tobi is far more likely he had the mind set, the skill, the knowledge, the experience, the conviction & the trust of Madara. Madara spoke as if his death and resurrection as if it was part of a plan. Who do think Madara would more likely entrust such important tasks too some noob Uchiha with "no talent" or his brother who sacrificed everything for their dream and had skill on nearly the same level as Madara himself.


    Madara: Well I'm off to die now Resurrect me after your done.
    Obito: ok...wait so how do I activate the MS again I forgot.
    Madara: Dont forget to gather all the tailed beasts challenge the shinobi world and manipulate everyone you some across with superior intellect.
    Obito: ok got it.....um...wait can you repeat that again.
    Madara: You should probably start with the Kyuubi and make sure you attack the village and kill everyone you ever cared about including your master. I'm sure you'll be able to handle all these tasks on your own right?
    Obito: Well I....
    Madara: Great well I knew I could count you! I'l just leave my entire future plans in the palm of a 14 year old who never displayed any superior great skill or insight into anything.
    Obito: I wont let you down... I don't think.
    Madara: This seems legit! Bye X.X




    People thinking Tobi is Obito reminds me of when people thought Pain was Minato because their hair is so similar.


    It's obvious this is the work of the famous Uchiha brothers Madara & Izuna working together they both found ways to cheat death.
    Ok, I understand you think obito can't be Tobi. I see your points and i get them.
    I think too it's very possible for him to be Izuna, but don't make a freakin' idiot out of obito. The fact he wasn't really good at ninja skills and wasn't a genius at planning doesen't mean he was dim-witted. He just didn't have natural talent, but he was skilled enough to become a chunin, that means he was more intelligent and better at ninja skills than naruto was at his age. Now naruto is an uber powerful character thanks to his power ups and he can pull off really good tactics during battle. If Obito awakened the mangekyou sharingan, that would make a huge power-up for him: his technique is very handy and can be useful in every situation.
    As for the great moon eye plan, it doesen't mean Tobi planned everything alone: Madara made the plan in great detail, concerning the biju, sasuke, gedo mazou...Tobi is only following instructions, and no, Obito is not such a dumbass as you picture him. Following isntructions is probably the easiest thing in the world, plus skills can be trained, transforming an uchiha looser with great determination into a powerful shinobi. Madara even left him Zetsu for assistance: Zetsu seems pretty smart himself and he knows the plan in great details, so he can help out Tobi if something goes wrong.
    And as for Obito's motivation against senju, we don't know virtually anything about Obito's past. We don't know who his parents were, or his grandparents. We don't know what he went trough in his childhood. As Zero once suggested it seems Obito must have awakened sharingan some time before Kannabi bridge, cuz when he did he had immediatly 2 tomoes in each sharingan. When one awakenes sharingan for the firts time, as kishi shows us in sasuke's case, he has only 1 tomoe in each eye. That means Obito went trough some hasty moments in his past. Maybe there is enough traumatic experiences n his past to make him hate senju. OR Tobi is just playing Madara's part while talking to naruto about the senju.
    I think there is a possibility madara infused Tobi with all his memories and feelings and knowledge before dying, to make it easier for tobi to act like him.

    Even though we lack evidence, you cannot simply put an end to this theory, because you don't know what kishi has in mind. Make your objections but don't attack the theory like that. Respect all speculation, because you could be wrong as well. Even though i'd like tobi to be obito, i respect the possibility for him to be Izuna and I take it into account.

  8. #108
    Senior Member knife eater's Avatar
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    Funny idea, obito said he would see the future through kakashi's eye. Now that it's confirmed tobi at least is using obito's eye, he could have been spying on konoha through kskashi's eye (when uncovered ofc) while hiding in the "sharingan " dimension without kakashi ever knowing. If tobi is obito then i very much want this ridiculous link of obito 's eyes to make obito's dying words literally true. I hate the obito theory but its so silly and awesome if obito really did see everything kakashi saw! I'd excuse kishi then, for such a secret identity fiasco
    _____
    Obito is Tobirama's great grandson. The proof is in the pudding.

  9. #109
    Senior Member Yoru's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by knife eater View Post
    Funny idea, obito said he would see the future through kakashi's eye. Now that it's confirmed tobi at least is using obito's eye, he could have been spying on konoha through kskashi's eye (when uncovered ofc) while hiding in the "sharingan " dimension without kakashi ever knowing. If tobi is obito then i very much want this ridiculous link of obito 's eyes to make obito's dying words literally true. I hate the obito theory but its so silly and awesome if obito really did see everything kakashi saw! I'd excuse kishi then, for such a secret identity fiasco
    Lol, it would be kewl if what you say were true

  10. #110
    Senior Member Zero's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paulbee View Post
    Zero,

    I can't really get a grip on this post and I'd like to examine it a little.

    Quote: Madara never said that he cooperated with Tobi, rather he only said "It's his doing" and not "their doing"

    Madara was referring to his Edo Zombie Condition/State.

    Quote: People are saying that Tobi is Izuna because he knows too much, but Madara suggested that it's (hard but) possible to put the puzzle together by reading the Uchiha Stone Monument

    The reference to the stone Monument was ONLY, about the Sharingan evolving to the Rinnegan, The way he put it was "The secretes of my body", while the Izuna Theorists are impressed about Tobi's Knowledge about Madara, Sharingan, and Uchiha matters in general and at depth.

    On information about the weakening seal: It appears that Mikoto's seal weakenednwhen she gave birth. This is information that would have been known to top Konoha officials, but Sharingans are good at extracting information, Are they not?

    Nobody is saying that Tobi didn't go to the Uchiha hiding place, after all that is probably where Madara himself got his information before he hatched his plan to take Hashirama's cells.

    Finally, It appears you are suggesting that Madara and Tobi are/were not cooperating together:
    fake madara.jpg

    First Madara asks, "Do you know Our Plan as well?", and Last thing Kabuto says is "...Though I am unsure if the fake Madara will act as planned"

    They know each other, they planned together.

    Maybe I misread some of your point , but these are my thought in response.
    What I meant is that it is suggested that there is only one person that helps Madara with his plan, while that isn't true. Of course he doesn't count Nagato, because he was a puppet (he knew very little). Normally he would say: "It had to be their doing that I ended up this way, they seem to have something in mind, but what ?...". Since Tobi requires Zetsu (he even talks about the plan with him a few times, when there are some changes to it), it would seem that Zatsu had to be working with Tobi for a long time and thus Madara too, yet Madara mentions only one person, isn't it strange ? As someone mentioned, Zetsu knows about the plan in details, most likely more than Kisame and obviously more than Kabuto.

    To those that think that Tobi is a full Zetsu, perhaps the Black one, but not the White one since, in difference to other Zetsus, he didn't notice that the Original Zetsu died, unless the White Zetsu is made from Tobi...

    Itachi knew a lot, probably every adult Uchiha knew that much about Madara's history and the Monument explained Madara's secrets - acquiring Hashirama's power and surviving the battle with later awakening Rinnegan. Kabuto was even able to discover that without the Monument.

    Without the add ons from Kabuto, Madara looks like a normal person. It's quite possible that he tested the merging of two powers on someone else before using it on himself, thus the creation of the White and Black Zetsu (many people theorized about that). The White one has clearly only Hashirama's power, but the Black one, even alone displayed only Hashirama-like powers himself (although it had a doujutsu-like feel as well...). I think it's possible that the Black Zetsu, is actually Izuna. Even though Izuna lost the power of his sharingan, he still possessed Spiritual Powers almost equal to Madara's, he would have been a great candidate for the test. Not to mention that the Black Zetsu is only one and that he seems to be way older and more mature than the White one. Plus the phrasing he used when he was searching for the lords (526 p.7): "They underestimate Black Zetsu's powers", normally you would say that: "They underestimate me too much", or "They underestimate my power".

    Quote Originally Posted by POW View Post
    This Obito theory really needs to die lol it makes less sense the more you think about. Forgetting all the details that don't match does it make sense Madara would leave the future of all his plans to some 14 loser Uchiha who never even got laid.

    What possible motivation would Obito have to work with Madara?

    Sasuke is different his family was executed and his brother made a murderer he has reason to be angry. His hatred is what is being manipulated.


    Izuna being Tobi is far more likely he had the mind set, the skill, the knowledge, the experience, the conviction & the trust of Madara. Madara spoke as if his death and resurrection as if it was part of a plan. Who do think Madara would more likely entrust such important tasks too some noob Uchiha with "no talent" or his brother who sacrificed everything for their dream and had skill on nearly the same level as Madara himself.


    Madara: Well I'm off to die now Resurrect me after your done.
    Obito: ok...wait so how do I activate the MS again I forgot.
    Madara: Dont forget to gather all the tailed beasts challenge the shinobi world and manipulate everyone you some across with superior intellect.
    Obito: ok got it.....um...wait can you repeat that again.
    Madara: You should probably start with the Kyuubi and make sure you attack the village and kill everyone you ever cared about including your master. I'm sure you'll be able to handle all these tasks on your own right?
    Obito: Well I....
    Madara: Great well I knew I could count you! I'l just leave my entire future plans in the palm of a 14 year old who never displayed any superior great skill or insight into anything.
    Obito: I wont let you down... I don't think.
    Madara: This seems legit! Bye X.X




    People thinking Tobi is Obito reminds me of when people thought Pain was Minato because their hair is so similar.


    It's obvious this is the work of the famous Uchiha brothers Madara & Izuna working together they both found ways to cheat death.
    LOL, it's not like Madara or Izuna got laid, you know ;P ? At least it's not confirmed . Currently the only known ninja that got laid are those that had kids and Yahiko .

    We got to see both of them put into a coffin, one in a wood one and the other in a stone one .

    Sasuke's and Madara's (original) motivation was hatred, Itachi's was duty and love, while Tobi's is hopelessness. As Tobi stated many times, there is no hope, dreams are only empty promises and the only thing that the world and humans will ever reach are illusions.

    When he was pretending to be Madara, he obviously had to imitate his hatred. He even did it in a way that would be obvious to notice.

    The only known Uchiha with MS (actually EMS/Rinnegan) and Hashirama's power, is Madara and he is pretty overpowered. A combination like that would make anyone a few times stronger. Not to mention that Zetsu records every important fight, so that Tobi will be prepared for future battles.


    Well, Gai's reaction points to Obito, but that is Gai, Kakashi don't want to believe it, because frankly there are other possibilities, while Naruto doesn't care about assumptions. He knows that Tobi has to be stopped and goes to action, everything will be answered after he beats him one way or the other.



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