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  1. #41
    Senior Member knife eater's Avatar
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    Yeah, man. I'm totally digging this new orochimaru angle. "The human who knows everything" ,however, could refer to someone else entirely; i am evenly split between it being orochimaru (thus demonstrating all we assumed and knew about him was wrong or vastly incomplete. If not referring to him then it means somebody only orochimaru knows how to reach. Orochimaru has swapped bodies so many times it makes him out to be an entity rather than simply a person. I think its possible he has been around much longer than what the 3rd's and jaraya's flashbacks reveal. Orochimaru the entity or whatever probably took the body early (or even in the womb?) And carried along as that particular being. Its wild but totally possible, he knows so much and has techniques for immortality after all. IM hoping, though, "the human who knows everything" is someone ancient, like a son of so6p or other "watcher" type yet to be introduced. Its not Tobi, unless knowing everything simply means knowledge sasuke needs to arrive at answers. That could simply be history or other secrets. Can't wait to find out since "the human who knows everything" is the most (and only) imteresting thing sasuke has ever said :p

    Quote Originally Posted by Kenny Bones View Post
    What I find interesting now is that Edo Madara is now as complete as he needs to be. He doesn't really need to be alive percé. As a matter of fact, he looks quite pleased in his current form. That raises a whole lot of questions about Tobi though. Looks like we can rule out the whole "Tobi is Madara's soul inside a Zetsu body" now. Cause when you think about it, when Kabuto showed Tobi the coffin, Tobi looked kinda scared. Why? Previously I thought it was because Tobi was supposed to revive the true Madara. Not some edo zombie. But, if Tobi have had Madara's memories, he would have known about edo tensei. Also, he wouldn't have thought that edo tensei'ing Madara was a bad thing.

    I'm beginning to put my own hypothesis about Tobi being a zetsu clone with Madara's soul at rest. He sure can't be Madara now. He doesn't even fit his arrogant profile.

    When I think about it, what if the twist later on is that Kabuto put a cursed mark on the edo body that now is Madara? Looks like Madara is touching his shoulder about the same spot as Anko has the cursed mark. Could it be that Orochimaru will take over Madara's body as some point? That would be a huge twist!
    I theorized this exact thing months ago but it was not a respected theory. I said edo madara is likely the final boss after obtaining more power but his summoning had, seriously, every sign and trapping to become taken over by orochimaru. Using ankos cursed seal was not shown simply to say that sasuke will use it to talk to orochimaru, she was subdued and used as a delivery device to "inject" orochimaru into the edo tensei so he could take over edo madara. Edo madara is exactly, seriously the most perfect thing, orochimaru could want! IM glad you thought of this as well.

  2. #42
    Senior Member Zero's Avatar
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    ^ Well, I'm not sure if he can be called a human, but there is in fact someone that is like a 'watcher' that 'records' all important fights, the Black Zetsu. We can guess, more or less, White Zetsu's origin, but the Black one is still a mystery and is still alive indifference to the original WZ.


    LOL, Oro awakening inside Edodara, that's just rich, he would acquire all he wanted (Uchiha, Senju and Rinnegan), the only missing parts are Itachi's shield and sword, unless Kabuto somehow copied them already, after all Itachi was under his control. Oh right, forgot about the Sage Mode, but the ETZobmie's might work based on natural energy anyway, or their source of powers come from the infinity pure realm.



  3. #43
    Senior Member Kenny Bones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by knife eater View Post
    I theorized this exact thing months ago but it was not a respected theory. I said edo madara is likely the final boss after obtaining more power but his summoning had, seriously, every sign and trapping to become taken over by orochimaru. Using ankos cursed seal was not shown simply to say that sasuke will use it to talk to orochimaru, she was subdued and used as a delivery device to "inject" orochimaru into the edo tensei so he could take over edo madara. Edo madara is exactly, seriously the most perfect thing, orochimaru could want! IM glad you thought of this as well.
    Exactly, Orochimaru could be the one who fucks up Tobi's and Madara's plan. This would give Kabuto a lot more credibility as well. I was wondering why on earth Kabuto was interfeiring in the war. And why he "teamed up" with Tobi at all. I mean, Orochimaru was gone right? Well, what if that was Kabuto's plan all along? I think this makes a lot of sense!

  4. #44
    Senior Member knife eater's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kenny Bones View Post
    Exactly, Orochimaru could be the one who fucks up Tobi's and Madara's plan. This would give Kabuto a lot more credibility as well. I was wondering why on earth Kabuto was interfeiring in the war. And why he "teamed up" with Tobi at all. I mean, Orochimaru was gone right? Well, what if that was Kabuto's plan all along? I think this makes a lot of sense!
    Well i think madara made his plans with orochimaru, that's why he asked kabuto if he knew "their plan" and kabuto seemed assured. It explains how orochimaru got hashirama DNA for edo tensei against the third homage and why also he was summonable by kabuto. Madara freely handed over both sources of DNA that should, by all accounts, be impossible to obtain (especially madaras). The scene where kabuto showed Tobias the mystery coffin was
    Was in order to call Toni's bluff. Kabuto knew the real plan and was forcing Toni's hand, knowing him to be lying about madara. Its just a mystery why Tobias is seemingly meddling in madara's plan but i believe more and more that tobi is not affiliated with madara in the ways he claims. I wouldn't be surprised now if tobi was the son of so6p and 'his power, madara uchihas power" scene meant that his descendant was the heir to the power that began with him and he wants it back. Just as madara had faked his death to obtain hashiramas cells, so too did one son fake his death to slink away until he could restore his power. I think madara vs hashirama has many literal parallels with the two brothers not limited to slinking away for greater power later.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zero View Post
    ^ Well, I'm not sure if he can be called a human, but there is in fact someone that is like a 'watcher' that 'records' all important fights, the Black Zetsu.
    This explains how tobi knows what he knows, he and or black zetsu observed and spied madara and orochimaru. Things are reaching a point now where stuff gets turned upside down and things we didn't see coming are soon to surface. IM more interested in black zetsu's origin now than tobi's identity. Black zetsu mentioned orochimaru had searched far and wide for the spiritual weapons that turned out to be in itachi's possession. How would he know that? I bet he spied plenty on orochimaru and madara and thus tobi knows things
    Also, it shows the possibility of tobi not being responsible for helping itachi slay the clan but merely observed the events via black zetsu power and used what he learned to twist it to his own aims.
    Last edited by knife eater; 07-05-2012 at 07:16 AM.

  5. #45
    Senior Member Kenny Bones's Avatar
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    I've never thought this would happen at all. But it makes a lot of sense. Madara said just as he was revived as an edo that "this must be his doing". And in the same page, Kabuto says to Madara "I'm his assistant". He wouldn't call Tobi his assistant at all. So, this must mean that Madara lived long enough to know who Nagato was. This also means that he could have met with Orochimaru.

    So if Madara and Orochimaru actually worked together! This would explain a lot actually. It was said that Madara gained a portion of Hashirama's DNA during their fight. And we know Orochimaru somehow also had Hashirama's DNA. How could he have gotten that? From Madara of course. This must be where the whole merging of cells began. Orochimaru worked with Danzo as seen with Danzo's weird ass hashirama arm. This could be the very start of Zetsu as well.

    I theorized long ago that Zetsu is an experiment in itself. I belive Zetsu is Madara and Hashirama DNA combined. Black zetsu is Madara's DNA and White Zetsu is Hashirama's DNA. An early experiment on merging the two bloodlines in order to get to the rinnegan and the power of the 6 paths.

    This still leaves Tobi in a bigger mystery. Who the fuck is Tobi? Also, when Kabuto showed Tobi the coffin containing Edo Madara, that was just to let Tobi know that Kabuto saw through his lies.

    Edit: Haha, what if... waaait for iiiiiit.... Tobi is a creation of Zetsu???

    Think about it, if Zetsu is a creation of Orochimaru. An early test to see if the two bloodlines would match. This would mean that Zetsu is a combined creation of Madara and Hashirama. Couldn't this explain why Tobi knows so much? Because he's indirectly a creation of Zetsu, who has Madara's DNA? Just thinking out loud here

    Or, it could be that Tobi was created by Zetsu in order to revive Madara in. Tobi did say that Nagato's revival jutsu was meant for him. So it could be that the original plan was to revive Madara's soul inside Tobi's body. Using Tobi mearly as a wessel.

    But that wouldn't explain Orochimaru. Could be that Orochimaru and Madara worked together in a similar way as Tobi and Kabuto did. But they still had separate motives alltogether.
    Last edited by Kenny Bones; 07-05-2012 at 07:30 AM.

  6. #46
    Senior Member knife eater's Avatar
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    Kenny, madara worked with orochimaru, kabuto became privy to that fact at some point but he is not exactly cooperating with tobi but merely calling his bluff. Calling madara through edo tensei is a variation of the original plan. Edo madara defeats Toni's intention of taking madara for himself (as my theory is tobi being a.son of the six paths). Remember, if madara and orochimaru were indeed teamed up it makes more significant orochimaru coming into contact with young nagato. Orochimaru could have been the delivery boy of madaras.rinnegan to nagato or simply to check up on things. We never see tobi with nagato as a child but its very important that we see orochimaru with him. Tobi figured out what was going on because black zetsu observed it. Black zetsu, IMO, is a creation in part by hadhirama's ancestor who probably had mokuton or something similar but i think tobi and zetsu were around long before madara and hadhirama were born.

    I think the most important thing we overlooked is that if zetsu was in part created from hashirama cells then why doesn't orochimaru have any zetsus? Its obvious now orochimarus experiments with hashirama cells were conducted as a contributing factor to his plans with madara. But zetsu is not connected to madara or hashirama's cells but from the mokuton precursor the son of the six paths used. Tobi and zetsu observed their plan secretly and hijacked it after madaras death. Tobi and madara have entirely different aims and the icing on the cake would be is that just as naruto was named after a character in jarayas book, madara was probably named after a character from the secret tablet, the son of the six paths and thus tobi can get away with calling himself madara both literally and figuratively.

    Madara and tobi are similar in that they both logically concluded the same thing ; that in order to gain ultimate power they must merge the 2 bloodlines. Zetsu was the result of one brother of the six paths trying to merge the other brothers power (similar to mokuton) with his own but gives the appearance it was from madara and hashiram undertakings. Its why it appears tobi is associated with madara but in fact wants to steal him to get the power that he feels should be his, he saw madara succeed with hashirama and by help of orochimaru where he failed or could not complete with his attempt at incorporating his brothers power many generations before. Tobi probably kept tabs on uchiha during important moments and zetsu could very well have snuck through the earth to grab obito's eye even though his face appeared crushed.
    Last edited by knife eater; 07-05-2012 at 08:38 AM.

  7. #47
    So Orochimaru is still alive but the what the real mystery is, is he "TOBI"? If this is true, then Kishimoto just cause my brain to explode Did Itachi know that Tobi could be Orochimaru? is Tobi/Orochimaru "the one who knows everything"? and what is the "everything" that this person will know? I don't think psychologically I can handle what's going on in Naruto right now, cause it's not what I know that scary, its what we're going to find out that's really freaking me out

  8. #48
    Senior Member Kenny Bones's Avatar
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    I don't see any indication that Tobi is Orochimaru at all. Can't really see how people might think that either.

  9. #49
    Senior Member Jean-Marie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kenny Bones View Post
    I don't see any indication that Tobi is Orochimaru at all. Can't really see how people might think that either.
    Agreed.
    Oro was part of Akatsuki in its begin. If Oro and Tobi are the same, it means the Akatsuki could never have meetings including the complete team. Or ... Oro/Tobi should have used a clone in order to be there twice. Would Itachi and Nagato have been be tricked by a simple clone? Very unlikely to me.

  10. #50
    Senior Member Temperjoke's Avatar
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    In this situation, I believe that "The Third Power" isn't an ability or jutsu, it refers to what Sasuke and his team represents, a third group with their own agenda, or to Orochimaru himself, who is not currently assisting Akatsuki or the Shinobi Army.

    It's entirely feasible that Orochimaru worked with Madara, or even Tobi, in experiments regarding Hashirama's DNA being combined with Uchiha eyes, in an effort to unlock the secrets of the SoSP, prior to Orochimaru's departure from Akatsuki.

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