Itachi and Shisui: Love for the leaf!
In 590 discussion I pointed out that Itachi and Shisui were the only two Uchiha not participating in the Uchiha rebellion. I find that very interesting. Why? The rebellion was a setup with Madara as orchestrator. Itachi and Shisui were the only two known Uchiha of the mangekyo level from their generation prior to Sasuke growing up. Either being of the mangekyo level made them powerful enough to be unassailable by Madara's manipulations or being of mangekyo level; Madara found them to be the only Uchiha he could respect after his percieved betrayal and weakness of the clan after choosing peace and clan harmony with the Senju. Out if respect he did not manipulate them with the others.
The Uchiha have power to change reality and destiny with izanagi and izanami. Mangekyo allows some, like shisui, to bend the will of of individuals and groups. Only the strongest uchiha would Madara think deserve to keep their free will and maintain ownership if their destiny after all others accepted growing weak in peacetime afforded by his supposed death fighting hashirama.
Danzo at the kage summit proves it doesn't require much to steer large groups into extreme directions through manipulations and powers of sharingan. I also bet Madara manipulated danzo as well, as insurance and counter pawn necessary for an ugly and nasty rebellion. I doubt Madara respected danzo's desire to acquire uchiha eyeballs and so used ironic justice in subjugating him into his grand scheme.
Again, out of respect for Itachi's genius level and remarkable uchiha power, he let him keep the leaf and his brother. There was also sentiment at play given that Sasuke is analogue to Madara then Itachi probably reminded Madara of his own brother. Or, since Itachi is bad ass, he used the eye he just received from shisui ON MADARA LOL. He used it on him to force his intentions away from the village and sasuke. Kotoatsumaki is awesome, even mafara falls for it. Just a likelihood is all. Takes 10-13 years for shisui's eye to reset for another use? That's about how long it took for the masked man to resurface, probably smarting for having been hoodwinked by itachi into not touching leaf or sasuke. Now he is aiming to hands fully on both.
I don't think that Madara was capable of directly controlling Itachi or Shisui at that point. I think though that Shisui and Itachi saw things differently from the rest of the clan because of how they grew up. Based on everything that has been shown Tobi didn't lie about Itachi. Itachi was a child of war and he grew up desiring above all else to avoid the large scale destruction he witnessed as a child. Shisui probably had a similar experience but being older he had more experience and likely befriended Itachi because he saw him as a kindred spirit of sorts. The rest of the clan was too caught up in their own pride and clan loyalty to fully consider how their actions would affect the world as a whole. Shisui explains this problem before his death. Itachi's speech when he is confronted by the Uchiha police force also implies that the Uchiha are too preoccupied with the clan to see the big picture. As he says people hate and fear what they do not understand and they judge things by how they appear on the surface. Itachi and Shisui were both rare individuals, the way the clan and village acted is the way that the majority tends to act in real life. Its natural to jump to conclusions and fear things that we don't understand.
Originally Posted by knife eater
Probably Itachi witnessed Shisui trying to talk the clan into peaceful resolutions when he was very young and as he grew older he probably made it clear to Shisui that he agreed with his philosophies which lead Shisui to trust Itachi. To some degree Madara did manipulate Itachi and Shisui. Shisui ended up dead trying to stop the conflict that Madara had indirectly started and Itachi ended up wiping out the clan because he believed it was the only way to ensure that a war would not be started. All of those events happened largely as a result of Madara's deception. Madara likely didn't expect Itachi to find out his plans but a major part of his plan was a success. He didn't manage to start a war but he did manage to destroy the Uchiha clan through Itachi.
As for why the rest of the clan did not want to resolve things peacefully, that has been explained by what Tobi told Sasuke and hinted at during Sasuke's flashback of his childhood. It is common for most people to follow the heard especially when the group is being treated poorly. The Uchiha saw themselves being treated with progressively less respect. It takes someone who is very strong minded to see the greater good of the world above the need to protect ones own honor or the honor of their clan. Itachi and Shisui both seem to have been gentle people at heart but also very intelligent people who had a lot of ties to the village that probably most Uchiha did not have. So their unusual decision to favor the peace of the known world as a hole above upholding the sanctity of their clan was a result of that unusual combination of traits. Itachi and Shisui were not only rare in their power but also in their beliefs and life circumstances. I don't think Madara controlled the Uchiha clan, I think he did things to make the village fear the Uchiha and thus create conflict between them. Once the village leaders felt that the Uchiha could lead to their destruction they basically separated them from the rest of the village and put them under observation. The Uchiha saw this as aggression and likely suspected that if they didn't act then they would eventually be destroyed. They weren't entirely wrong based on what Shisui said about Danzo. Danzo seemed to have his mind set on
Again, I don't think that Madara controlled many of the Uchiha directly, I think he manipulated circumstances to cause the Uchiha to be progressively more feared and that resulted in the Uchiha being treated poorly which led them to retaliate. I don't think Madara not controlling Itachi and Shisui had anything to do with him respecting them, I don't think he was physically capable of controlling them directly. It was Itachi who sought out Madara and offered him a deal. Madara needed Itachi, because at the time, by his own admission, he did not have the power to destroy the Uchiha clan himself. Itachi had witnessed Madara doing something to try to cause a war, Itachi saw that and since he was already set on destroying the clan to prevent a war, he used that to give Madara part of what he wanted, to keep him satisfied. Madara seems to have agreed because he got part of what he wanted plus if he chose not to go a long with it Itachi could have potentially derailed his plans.
Originally Posted by knife eater
If he did manipulate Danzo I suspect it was very indirectly. As we saw with Danzo during his battle with Sasuke, his beliefs hadn't changed much. There are many degrees of evil, just as Danzo tried to use Itachi's desire to protect the village against him Madara probably did something similar to Danzo. Danzo seems like a person who saw any potential danger as an inevitable threat. Madara likely saw Danzo's paranoia and tendencies to favor military action as an easy way to instigate war. Based on their interactions Madara and Danzo had a complicated history, yet another thing I wish they had explained better in the 590 flashback.
Originally Posted by knife eater
Madara is a user and manipulator, he doesn't seem the type to do much of anything that doesn't serve his own goals. I highly doubt he did anything simply out of respect for Itachi. He had plans to destroy the Uchiha and going along with Itachi was the best way to accomplish that goal. Madara had likely been carefully planing the destruction of the Uchiha for a very long time. He intended to manipulate Konoha and the Uchiha to destroy each other but Itachi found him out. Madara, who was limited in power at the time, had to choose between going along with Itachi's plan or risk being discovered and have all of his plans ruined. Going along with Itachi's plan assured that the Uchiha clan would be destroyed, which was a big part of his own plan anyway. I think Madara was purely serving his own interests, I think he did anything simply out of respect for Itachi. I think that if Madara could have controlled Itachi completely he would have. Tobi said that he could not touch Konoha while Itachi was alive, Itachi was an obstacle, someone who he could not control directly. For the purpose of the massacre, Itachi was a means to an end. Madara acknowledged Itachi's ability and seems to have some level of reverence towards Itachi for what he achieved, but he, like Danzo, both wanted to use Itachi to get the job done.
Originally Posted by knife eater
Hmmmm, the rest of the clan, or at least majority of it... no I don't think so and it's a waste of time & power to control many, when you can control one, that controls the rest. Tobi did something similar with Mizukage, so I guess some lesser Uchiha could fall under his control. It's not explained why he had that level of power then, perhaps it was actually the real Madara, but he supposedly died not long after his defeat and obtaining Rinnegan.
If, Tobi is indeed a product of Madara, then it's possible that there were more than one Tobi and each gained different powers from Madara. One was capable of controlling people through his eyes, like we see him doing that with Yagura, while the other could move everywhere and infiltrate anyone. It's possible that they shared their knowledge or even had linked minds, but one of them died. We don't really know what happened after the Mist Byakugan user discovered that Mizukage was controlled, it's possible that Yagura and the Other Tobi, where killed after that.
Shisui can be more lucky than Itachi, at least he used to be a hero, but Itachi can only be a traitor in Leaf!