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  1. #11
    Senior Member knife eater's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paulbee View Post
    I am totally in accord with your views. The Obvious answer is that the Senju who in accordance with the Younger son's philosophy of peace and equality, have diluted their blood line over the centuries by being less elitist in who they marry. This philosphy has gainned them peaceful co-existence at the expense of their physical powers.

    Now onto Our Boy Naruto. Maybe, just perhaps there is a way for latent Senju abilities to appear during or as a response to extreme duress endured in a noble, selfless effort. This theme has been prevalent in shonen Manga, an example being Son Goku acquiring Super Saiyen powers during his fight with freezer. It would not be too out of line for Kishi to introduce a similar awakening in Naruto, who through Minato just happens to bear aremarkable semblance to the SO6P. It is interesting that the semblance with the SO6P is enhanced when Naruto Gained the Yang of the 9Tails. It certainly would be nice if Naruto awakens some latent Senju ability through or during his upcoming battle with Sasuke.
    Right on. I could live with that since the idea of close ties enhances power, especially the sibling requirements for EMS. I bet this was intended by so6p when he split the bloodlines. I bet fierce meaningful (and symbolic) clashes between uchiha and senju awakens power and insight otherwise unattainable. Naruto already shows he has strongest power in the manga that of his heart.

  2. #12
    Senior Member lazybum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greed-sama View Post
    Does anyone else remember when they talked up the Byakugan and said that the Sharingan actually came from it?

    http://178.21.19.200/manga/mangas/Na...uto-9-6-13.jpg

    LOLZ
    as afro menioned, "It was said"...
    also, tobi did mention that uchiha's were direct descendants of the older son of the SO6P. there was a panel showing a glimpse of the two son's, but i can't recall seeing the older son's eyes. does anyone else remember this ?

    @Lakritze, as explained by tobi during his history lesson to the kages, sharingan's origins lies with the SO6P, and the rennigan, and maybe from the Jyuubi (10 tails, its eyes seem to share the same eye design), its exponentially increasing abilities can be explained by kishi. but for its every upgrade, kishi has shown a counter to it.
    sasuke's fully activated sharingan vs naruto at VOTE,
    sasuke's MS activated vs bee,
    madara's EMS vs hashirama,
    nagato's rennigan vs naruto & konoha shinobi's, nagato vs naruto, bee, itachi...
    no matter how many upgrades come with a blood line, there will always be ways to counter them, kishi has implied this many times over the course of this manga. and a blood line is only a tool for a shinobi, as zetsu said during sasuke-itachi fight when sasuke overcame itachi's tsukiyomi, the use and battle prowess of that tool really depends of the shinobi's possessing that ability, so in that sense, a blood-line is almost like a jutsu (a blood-line only implies that the shinobi possessing them as some extra justus), the jutsu maybe all-powerful like the shinara tensei, but there are ways to counter them like itachi showed against nagato.
    the effectiveness really depends on the user, e.g. minato vs tobi, many including minato acknowledged that tobi time-space technique was more advanced than minato's own space-time technique, but in a direct confrontation between the two using their respective techniques, minato came up on top.
    so its not really an end-all thing to have a blood-line, even sharingan in specific, atleast not in the naruto-verse

  3. #13
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    I agree, to a point, the sharingan has its problems. I think the frustrating thing is that the sharingan is a cool iconic idea but like so many other iconic abilities in long running series it got taken too far and strayed too much from its original concept. I think part of the problem is that the sharingan started as an ability that really complimented a ninja's other abilities but was not that powerful independently, it was an ability that increased a ninja's ability to learn and offered a few useful but not abilities that overshadowed all their other skills. The problem now is that the characters who have the sharingan don't really have much of a reason to use anything else. Now we are in a situation were basically the people who have the Eternal Mangekyou really don't seem to have much need to use anything else. Also, the sharingan used to be very clearly defined as being able to see through and copy ninjutsu, genjutsu and taijutsu. As the series pogressed though it became far less about that. Now the sharingan isn't really related to vision all that much, its more about being able to conjure attacks of godly power.

    While I still think the sharingan is a good idea, that is still far better thought out than something like the various levels of Super Saiyan. I agree that it has reached a point were it really overshadows all the other abilities of the user and the original abilities that made it so interesting and iconic have largely been ignored. I would have really liked to see Sasuke use the copying ability more and to have more diversity in his skillset. Now, Sasuke basically seems to use Susanoo for almost everything and if not Susanoo then at least Sharingan related abilities. Occasionally we still see Sasuke use grand fire ball or chidori but much of his skill set now seems almost totally unnecessary because his Sharingan abilities are so much more powerful.

    With that said though, I don't hate the sharingan, I just think that it has become to prominent and I wish the story would make more use of its original abilities rather than constantly giving it more god like powers that make a ninja's other skills seem irrelevant. As Sasuke said, the sharingan is just a tool that relies on the other skills of the user but now we have reached a point where someone who has the Eternal Mangekyou really doesn't seem to require many other skills to dominate. Madara for example doesn't seem to use much of anything besides powerful bloodline abilities, I mean he did use some taijutsu and fire techniques at the start of the fight but those abilities didn't really seem necessary. Its at a point where anyone who doesn't have a powerful bloodline seems relatively insignificant as a fighter. I would have liked to see more done with the basic elements, rather than just having every powerful character get a bloodline.

    The problem is similar with the Rinnegan. We really don't know if Nagato had much in the way of skills because all he uses are the godly abilities of the Rinnegan. He can apparently manipulate all 4 elements but you would never know it because he never uses them. The same is true for people with the sharingan being able to copy abilities. Based on the second half of the manga one would never even know that the sharingan is capable of copying a persons skills because no one seems to do it anymore. I thought it was awesome when Kakashi used the sharingan to copy Zabuza's abilities and turn them back on him and I was excited to see all the abilities that Sasuke would eventually copy. Sasuke only seemed to copy lee's speed and the chidori though, after that it seemed like Kishimoto forgot what the sharingan was named because we almost never see it used to copy abilities.

  4. #14
    Senior Member psukkar's Avatar
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    get in line man, we all have hate issues towards the sharingan. Kishi's managa is working because the sharingan powers is actually based on how much "hatred" you have according to tobi/madara .

    So hey it appears to generate hate. lol
    The Master's Legacy



    If a theory can't explain the mysteries of the past, it has little chance to explain the mysteries of the present and future.

  5. #15
    Senior Member Lakritze's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paulbee View Post
    Nobody is gonna ban you for this at Mangashare.
    That's good to know. *g*

    Quote Originally Posted by paulbee View Post
    I have One question for you though. Since we are all beholden to Kishimoto, and no one has the power to change what he's done to the Sharingan, what then do you expect to gain from this thread?
    I expect to gain from this thread the same as I expect from reading Naruto: I just wanna have fun. Nothing more, nothing less.

    Back to the issue:
    When the Sharingan was able to evolve to the Rinnegan, that's where Kishi crossed the line. Until then, I thought that the Byakugan still might catch up. The Rinnegan and the Sharingan were uber-strong, but as long as there was a possibility that the Byakugan also had the potential to develop super-secret, extremely chakra-consuming, virtually unbeatable jutsus, I could still buy it. Three dojutsus, rare and great, with advantages and disadvanages. Yet Madara showed that there is a way to switch from one doujutsu do another one. The direction of the evolvement - Sharingan into Rinnegan - shows that there is some kind of hierarchy between the dojutsus. It is safe to assume that the Rinnegan won't develop into the Byakugan - although that is a funny thought.

    Where does this leave the Byakugan? Is it possible to evolve the Byakugan into the Sharingan? Theoretically maybe, but as we already know, the Byakugan is the best dojutsu when it comes to making chakra-flows visible. Thus, a development into the Sharingan would be a step back when it comes to chakra-vision. Yet, now that I think about it, the Rinnegan isn't entirely better than the Sharingan, neither, since the Rinnegan can't be used to copy ninjutsus or taijutsus. So as strange as it seems, my bet would be on the Byakugan evolving into the Sharingan.

    Kishi could reveal this mystery, but the Hyugas aren't important enough to find their back to the center of the storyline.

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lakritze View Post
    That's good to know. *g*



    I expect to gain from this thread the same as I expect from reading Naruto: I just wanna have fun. Nothing more, nothing less.

    Back to the issue:
    When the Sharingan was able to evolve to the Rinnegan, that's where Kishi crossed the line. Until then, I thought that the Byakugan still might catch up. The Rinnegan and the Sharingan were uber-strong, but as long as there was a possibility that the Byakugan also had the potential to develop super-secret, extremely chakra-consuming, virtually unbeatable jutsus, I could still buy it. Three dojutsus, rare and great, with advantages and disadvanages. Yet Madara showed that there is a way to switch from one doujutsu do another one. The direction of the evolvement - Sharingan into Rinnegan - shows that there is some kind of hierarchy between the dojutsus. It is safe to assume that the Rinnegan won't develop into the Byakugan - although that is a funny thought.

    Where does this leave the Byakugan? Is it possible to evolve the Byakugan into the Sharingan? Theoretically maybe, but as we already know, the Byakugan is the best dojutsu when it comes to making chakra-flows visible. Thus, a development into the Sharingan would be a step back when it comes to chakra-vision. Yet, now that I think about it, the Rinnegan isn't entirely better than the Sharingan, neither, since the Rinnegan can't be used to copy ninjutsus or taijutsus. So as strange as it seems, my bet would be on the Byakugan evolving into the Sharingan.

    Kishi could reveal this mystery, but the Hyugas aren't important enough to find their back to the center of the storyline.
    Well to be fair, it is still possible that they are all related. We have already seen that the bloodlines seriously degenerated overtime. The sharingan in its later forms are just some sort of progression back to the Rinnegan and/or whatever eye the Elder son possessed. If the sharingan is a devolved Rinnegan it could be that the Byakugan is similar but in a different way. We are seeing something similar with the Senju and Uzumaki. Both the Senju and the Uzumaki seem to show abilities that relate to the powers of the younger son. I can think of a couple possible reasons for this, the difference may simply be a case of the bloodline being divided or it could also be a case of the bloodline mutating. This would explain why the byakugan and the sharingan each have advantages over the other. The sharingan is not an obvious evolution of the byakugan they are different. The reason that the sharingan is better is mainly because it has been evolved to higher levels. Perhaps something similar could have been accomplished with the byakugan but it was not attempted or not discovered. It is also interesting to notice that the Sharingan must be awakened while the byakugan (at least in some form) seems to be evident from birth. To me this shows signs of the divided nature of the bloodlines. Again we see something similar with the Senju and the Uzumaki, the Uzumaki are born with an obvious strong life force and physical energy. The Senju, however, seem to have latent abilities that are powerful but less common, Hashirama has so far been the only one to master the Wood Release and other special bloodline abilities related to the Senju.

    We still don't know what the true Rinnegan really originated or how it truly devolved. The Sharingan apparently descended from the Elder son but we don't know if he had the Rinnegan itself or a modified version. I personally suspect that the Elder son did not have the true Rinnegan but rather a different eye similar to the EMS since it has already been claimed that Senju cells are needed to awaken the Rinnegan. That would not make sense if the Elder brother already had the Rinnegan. So that begs the question of where the Byakugan came from. I have a couple of theories. The simple one is that the Byakugan is a mutation of the sharingan, the result of the Elder brother's bloodline mixing with another bloodline and becoming diluted. It could also be the result of a union of the Elder brother's descendants and the younger brother's descendants, which would explain why in some ways it is superior to the sharingan and why it is prevalent in all Huuga from an early age. Since it has parts of both bloodlines it would explain why it has similarities to the Rinnegan but it is also much more toned down, it is closer to the Original Sage's eyes but weaker than the Elder Brother's because it is less pure. The other theory is that the byakugan is a mutation caused by natural energy. There have already been hints that many of the bloodlines (an perhaps even the Original Sage of Six Path's abilities) are physical mutations brought on by the use of natural energy. Kabuto basically confirmed this by pointing out that Juugo's abilities are a result of his body absorbing natural energy but not being able to consciously control it. As a result his body can take on many different forms for many different purposes. When this ability is transferred to others though, via the cursed seal, it is more consistent to the user. I think that is a hint of how most of the bloodlines developed.

    The Byakugan may be a new bloodline that is really just a precursor to a physical mutation the Sage of Six Path's created in himself consciously to develop the Rinnegan. I do not believe that the Sage of Six Path's was born with the Rinnegan or any of his other powers. I believe that the Sage of Six Path's was a wise man who discovered the ability to use natural energy, absorb it into his body and use it to physically transform himself to create powerful bloodlines. We have already seen that natural energy can mutate the body, even Naruto's eyes change when he uses Sage Mode. The eyes changing is said to be a sign of a pure Sage. I believe that this is a hint to where the Eye Techniques derived from. Kabuto has also shown that there are different types of Sage mode which indicates that their are different aspects of nature to master. I believe that the Original Sage mastered all of the aspects of natural energy and obtained enlightenment, thus granting him the Eyes of God, the true Rinnegan. This would also explain why a Rinnegan user can control all 5 elements of nature. I believe that the other bloodlines are a more focused version of Juugo's ability. Juugo's bloodline is mutations caused by uncontrolled use of natural energy, I believe that most of the bloodlines are mutations caused by a specific use of natural energy. Like a supernatural evolution, the need or will of the individual paired with natural energy, develops a transformation resulting in a specific power or form that becomes a genetic trait.

  7. #17
    Senior Member Zero's Avatar
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    ^ The thing about natural energy is interesting and quite possible sine Kabuto already confirmed that So6p was using some kind of Sage Mode or at least utilized natural energy.

    Actually, we know how his eyes looked like, here is the picture of both sons (colors aren't confirmed):
    - Younger:
    Spoiler!


    - Elder:
    Spoiler!


    As you can see, his eye pattern, is exactly the same as the symbol of the Uzumaki clan. It's possible that the Younger one, chose it as the symbol of his clan in homage to his brother (after all, he probably still loved him):


    BTW. I found this draft on the net, it shows a possible(?) route of doujutsu degradation:
    Spoiler!



  8. #18
    Senior Member paulbee's Avatar
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    The Younger Son:

    Wears a forehead protector

    Looks like Hashirama, sort of.

    Has an Aura of flames around him

    The Elder Son:

    Eyes could easily be a version of Mangekyou Sharingan.

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  9. #19
    Senior Member Zero's Avatar
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    ^ From what I understood, the Younger Son is emanating Physical/life energy, in similar manner to what Naruto did in his KCM (after all his physical powers should have been even stronger than Hashirama's).

    You have to admit that it is the closest, in design, to So6p's/Nagato's eyes... and lol, he does look like a crazy person with those eyes .

    Hmmm, I wonder why none of them is smiling, normally when Hashirama is presented he is shown with a smile (unless he is spewing blood from his mouth), quite strange considering that their times had less wars...supposedly...well they started the Hatred cycle, but did they bring war ?


    The Byakugan is the most unique of them, since it's effects are visible beyond their eyes (you know, when it is activated veins appear around the eyes and when the eye isn't activated, it is still white).



  10. #20
    Senior Member paulbee's Avatar
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    I wonder if the Byakugan is not the result of a lesser Uchiha and a Lesser Senju procreating to starting their own clan. The result is an odd mix of Sharingan Yin and Senju Yang concentrated in the eyeballs and the ability to do a form of Shinra Tensei, which Neji's spinning whirling technique sort of resembles.

    Perhaps somewhere in the distant past two lovers from both sides attempted to cross the divide and reunite the Sages bloodlines.

    I am not perfect and I defy you to prove otherwise
    Growing Old Gracefully is an Oxymoron ... Mostly Moron !

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