Naruto 590 Discussion / 591 Predictions

[Zero]

@ Rin, I'm still not convinced.

The previous clone, the first one that Tsunade destroyed thinking it was Madara, had a Rinnegan. The rest probably had it as well, since the whole shared vision is useful and would give Madara better 'sits' to watch and 'enjoy' the battle more.

This page suggest that you can't cast genjutsu from Rinnegan, that it is one of the distinctive abilities of the Sharingan and what's more, it suggests that the Complete Susanoo, is actually an ability tied to Rinnegan as well (would make sense, since So6p would need to hold the Jyubi somehow, until it was sealed in him). Not to mention that probably the other eye was still a Rinnegan:

Spoiler!

For the same reason Tobi is using both, the Sharingan and Rinnegan, since there are still some abilities that can't be used from Rinnegan alone.

[Rlinfamous]

The clone Tsunade destroyed had its Rinnegan active to be convincing. That was the only time Madara tried to deceive the Kages with his clones. After that, they didn't need to keep the Rinnegan active, because they were just using Susano'o for the sake of his game. The only other technique we saw them use was the Sharingan Genjutsu that was used against the Raikage. I'm sure they could have performed that same Genjutsu with the Rinnegan active; there's absolutely no reason that Madara would lose any MS/EMS abilities while wielding the Rinnegan, as his Rinnegan evolved from his EMS. It's not a "different" eye, it's a more advanced version of the same eye. As for the notion that a clone had one Rinnegan still active while performing the Genjutsu with its EMS, I don't believe that's likely. We've never seen any character power up one eye and not the other (aside from when Sasuke gained Itachi's MS briefly in his first meeting with Tobi, but that's hardly the same thing).

Tobi keeps a Sharingan for his own reasons. My personal belief is that he has other plans for his second Rinnegan; perhaps its needed for his future plans, either for Sasuke or for Madara. It could be that, being cautious as ever, he'd prefer to keep a base Sharingan on him for the sake of Izanagi, in case he needs to get away without sacrificing a better eye. However, I'm more inclined to go with the "saving the second Rinnegan for something."

Whenever we've seen Nagato use the Rinnegan (or Tobi use Nagato's Rinnegan), the eye has been treated as different from the Sharingan. However, I believe this is not the case with Madara, who awakened the "true" Rinnegan via his Sharingan. Nagato and Tobi couldn't revert the Rinnegan at all, and Nagato wasn't even an Uchiha to begin with.

[Zero]

No, it is a different eye, since it bases on other powers than the Sharingan and it makes no sense to revert to EMS, at least from your arguments. To reserver chakra ? No, since being an Edo plus H-faced boost seems to give him more than he needs. To differentiate himself from the clones ? That's stupid and pointless as well, since he is standing away from the battle anyway.

We know that his clone can wield Rinnegan, since it was already proven. We know that Rinnegan hasn't displayed to be capable of any eye genjutsu. We know that a Complete Susanoo can be activated from it.

We don't know if Madara can active his other two jutsu from his Rinnegan, or perhaps, he already lost it in exchange for Rinnegan's power, though he only showed one of Rinnegan's power we know about.

Since Rinnegan is based of a mix of both, Yin and Yang powers, it's possible that pure spiritual or pure physical powers can't be casted from it. Susanoo isn't really a pure spirited form, since it actually takes a physical form, it can move, catch, hit, block, it even takes time to dissipate even after being removed from the caster. It might even be the reason why Madara's Susanoo casted from Rinnegan took the Complete Form and would explain why other Uchiha are able to only to pull half of it. Rather, only it's shape (from imagination ?) and weapons are of pure spirit power, but his build is that of physical power.

This would explain as well, why Madara's Susanoo doesn't posses a spiritual weapons like Sauke's and Itachu's had, that are based on other MS jutsu.

[Rlinfamous]

No, it is a different eye, since it bases on other powers than the Sharingan and it makes no sense to revert to EMS, at least from your arguments. To reserver chakra ? No, since being an Edo plus H-faced boost seems to give him more than he needs. To differentiate himself from the clones ? That's stupid and pointless as well, since he is standing away from the battle anyway.

We know that his clone can wield Rinnegan, since it was already proven. We know that Rinnegan hasn't displayed to be capable of any eye genjutsu. We know that a Complete Susanoo can be activated from it.

We don't know if Madara can active his other two jutsu from his Rinnegan, or perhaps, he already lost it in exchange for Rinnegan's power, though he only showed one of Rinnegan's power we know about.

Since Rinnegan is based of a mix of both, Yin and Yang powers, it's possible that pure spiritual or pure physical powers can't be casted from it. Susanoo isn't really a pure spirited form, since it actually takes a physical form, it can move, catch, hit, block, it even takes time to dissipate even after being removed from the caster. It might even be the reason why Madara's Susanoo casted from Rinnegan took the Complete Form and would explain why other Uchiha are able to only to pull half of it. Rather, only it's shape (from imagination ?) and weapons are of pure spirit power, but his build is that of physical power.

This would explain as well, why Madara's Susanoo doesn't posses a spiritual weapons like Sauke's and Itachu's had, that are based on other MS jutsu.

I think you're misunderstanding Yin and Yang in the case of Madara's Susano'o. It's no more "physical" than Itachi's or Sasuke's, meaning it has no more Yang. It's just bigger because Madara put more chakra into the technique, but the nature of that chakra is no different than Itachi's or Sasuke's. I like your assessment that the individual's Mangekyou techniques provide the Susano'o's weapons, but as you've said, we don't know that Madara had Amaterasu or Tsukuyomi, so maybe he's limited to swords.

As for the Rinnegan being incapable of Genjutsu, I find that unlikely. The Rinnegan is the source of Sharingan Genjutsu, and the Sharingan is merely a watered-down Rinnegan. The Uchiha may have developed their own over time due to being a clan that excelled in Yin/Genjutsu via their Rikudou lineage, but in no way would they surpass the Rikudou in Genjutsu. Likewise, there is still no reason Madara would have to revert his eyes to perform a technique, and neither would his clones. If the clones were using the EMS to perform a Genjutsu, it's because they were already in EMS mode (while walking around with Susano'o on two legs). We've seen Madara cast all of Hashirama's Jutsu (as close to Pure Yang as well ever see) with the Rinnegan active, so I don't buy the argument that the Rinnegan can only perform, as you say, "Yin/Yang" Jutsu. Although to be honest, I'd never have bought that, because the Rinnegan allows the use of any kind of Jutsu. And now Madara, the only Uchiha we know to have mastered the EMS, reveals his completed Susano'o, and even implied that he had that power against Hashirama... I just don't see the reason to jump to the conclusion that the Rinnegan was the source of that power. The Rinnegan is to blame for the meteors and the chakra-absorbing barriers, nothing more.

I can't vouch for why Madara's clones didn't keep the Rinnegan active at all times. If I were to guess, I'd say that it's because, while their Edo chakra is endless, it is not limitless. His clones were each at most 1/25 of his real power, and they were each maintaining a fully-formed Susano'o. I would sooner believe that was the reason they stuck with EMS than I would believe that the EMS was capable of performing a Genjutsu and the Rinnegan was not.

[Island man]

Aw hell, some real deep sh*t this week. I could bitch and bellyache about how short probably the most anticipated flashback was so short in comparison to Kabuto"s curtain call, but such a poignant portrayal of how things were at time, Danzou manipulating Itachi, the discovery of Tobi (Uchiha) and an emotional goodbye by Itachi as he saves the day. Why bother?! Solid gold from Kishi this week

On another note, are we to infer than Tobi is an honest to goodness, bonafide, Uchiha??? Cause until then i haven't been sure since Kabuto reappearred with edo madara in tow and forcing tobi's hand

[Aga bomBa]

I think you're misunderstanding Yin and Yang in the case of Madara's Susano'o. It's no more "physical" than Itachi's or Sasuke's, meaning it has no more Yang. It's just bigger because Madara put more chakra into the technique, but the nature of that chakra is no different than Itachi's or Sasuke's. I like your assessment that the individual's Mangekyou techniques provide the Susano'o's weapons, but as you've said, we don't know that Madara had Amaterasu or Tsukuyomi, so maybe he's limited to swords.

As for the Rinnegan being incapable of Genjutsu, I find that unlikely. The Rinnegan is the source of Sharingan Genjutsu, and the Sharingan is merely a watered-down Rinnegan. The Uchiha may have developed their own over time due to being a clan that excelled in Yin/Genjutsu via their Rikudou lineage, but in no way would they surpass the Rikudou in Genjutsu. Likewise, there is still no reason Madara would have to revert his eyes to perform a technique, and neither would his clones. If the clones were using the EMS to perform a Genjutsu, it's because they were already in EMS mode (while walking around with Susano'o on two legs). We've seen Madara cast all of Hashirama's Jutsu (as close to Pure Yang as well ever see) with the Rinnegan active, so I don't buy the argument that the Rinnegan can only perform, as you say, "Yin/Yang" Jutsu. Although to be honest, I'd never have bought that, because the Rinnegan allows the use of any kind of Jutsu. And now Madara, the only Uchiha we know to have mastered the EMS, reveals his completed Susano'o, and even implied that he had that power against Hashirama... I just don't see the reason to jump to the conclusion that the Rinnegan was the source of that power. The Rinnegan is to blame for the meteors and the chakra-absorbing barriers, nothing more.

I can't vouch for why Madara's clones didn't keep the Rinnegan active at all times. If I were to guess, I'd say that it's because, while their Edo chakra is endless, it is not limitless. His clones were each at most 1/25 of his real power, and they were each maintaining a fully-formed Susano'o. I would sooner believe that was the reason they stuck with EMS than I would believe that the EMS was capable of performing a Genjutsu and the Rinnegan was not.

Agreed.. said the same thing. There's no evidence indicating, that you need Rinnegan for performing a Perfect Susanoo. Madara was born with the strongest chakra among Uchiha's, first one who awakened EMS, closest to the lineage of the Elder Brother.. and that lineage possessed the strenght of chakra / spiritual energy of the So6P. Susanoo is all about spritual energy ( yin ) and with Madara having the strongest chakra of them all, makes it far easier for me to believe that he achieved that with only the EMS, and not through Rinnegan.

- I think that you also need the EMS for summoning the Perfect Susanoo, and I'm pretty sure that Sasuke has that ability also. Right after the transplant, he said that he felt Itachi's chakra floating through his body and with their powers combined now through the eyes, he could have the neccesary power for summoning the Perfect Susanoo.

By not showing his Perfect Susanoo, when he escapced Tobi's hideout,.. doesn't mean he hasn't got it?? Summoning would be wasting chakra for nothing + it would be too soon in the manga for such epic moment. And should we believe Madara's word by saying that only Hashirama could handle hispower? Why not.. Madara isn't saying that he used it against him? Madara only indicates that someone of Hashirama's calibur, could STOP HIM. He didn't say that Hashirama fought it and if Hashirama can handle the strongest bijuu ( 9 tails ), then why wouldn't he be able in fighting Perfect Susanoo?

So far; Itachi showed his version of Susanoo and because he had only the MS.. he didn't had the powers for evolving his susanoo to a perfect form. And in Sasuke case in the beginning idem tito and now with EMS; he simple just didnt showed us his full powers yet. At first; we didn't even know that Edo could make bunshins, untill Madara showed us.. and that has to be related to his Rinnegan powers + H- boost; but like RLIN said: it has to be related to his limit of chakra capacity. Performing 25 bunshins + 25 Susanoo, drains a lot of chakra

[artifice]

Aw hell, some real deep sh*t this week. I could bitch and bellyache about how short probably the most anticipated flashback was so short in comparison to Kabuto"s curtain call, but such a poignant portrayal of how things were at time, Danzou manipulating Itachi, the discovery of Tobi (Uchiha) and an emotional goodbye by Itachi as he saves the day. Why bother?! Solid gold from Kishi this week

On another note, are we to infer than Tobi is an honest to goodness, bonafide, Uchiha??? Cause until then i haven't been sure since Kabuto reappearred with edo madara in tow and forcing tobi's hand

This isn't the first time that Tobi called himself an Uchiha, claimed he was an Uchiha when he introduced himself to Sasuke, of course he also claimed that he was in fact Uchiha Madara. One thing I find very suspicious though is that here Tobi has long hair, in the style of Madara's but when he fought Minato (which happened prior to these events) he had short hair like the modern Tobi. I don't think this is just a case of him getting a hair cut. I think that either Tobi another version of himself (which would explain why he only ever has one sharingan) or the long hair masked man is in fact the real Madara. We still don't actually know exactly when or how Madara died but we know it was probably sometime after Nagato was given the Rinnegan because he knew about Nagato and assumed that Nagato was the one who had revived him.

I think that it was the real Madara who confronted Itachi but sometime after that he died. I am still really hoping we learn more about what really happened between Madara and Itachi. This chapter gave almost no details at all about what there relationship was like and certainly doesn't clarify Madara's role in Akatsuki or even his role in the massacre. Itachi seems to have been the one who did most of the work because he basically told Madara that he would help him get revenge in exchange for him leaving the village alone. That doesn't explain why Madara chose to go along with Itachi's plan for so long though or what Madara did during the massacre though. We also know that Madara (the long haired Tobi) was the one who met with and recruited Kisame but I am curious as to when exactly that happened.

I highly doubt that the long haired masked man and the short haired Tobi are the same person though, the difference in appearance must have some significance, especially since Tobi clearly had short hair before the long hair man was confronted by Itachi.

[knife eater]

Argument for perfect susanoo not requiring rinnegan is that it was up to this point a sharingan exclusive technique and
Tsunade's words "grandad went up against this?" (Paraphrased) implies that besides wood clones and meteors, all the uchiha powers he displayed were present and used in his battle with hashirama, which was before he got rinnegan. You could object and claim perfect susanoo required hashirama cells/powerup which also still avoids Finnegan requirement.

Argument for requiring Finnegan is that sharingan powers are often reflections and shadows if rinnegan powers, diluted techniques with severe costs. The technique such ad izanagi is perfect example of this, susanoo could also require the rinnegan to realize its potential as the power it was meant to be and not a diluted power.

Anyone else think madara uses natural energy similar to sage mode? I wouldn't doubt it given the sheer might of his jutsus seem a little much to be happening with just rinnegan, even if he has strongest uchiha chakra, hashirama dna, and edo tensei ambiguous chakra. Maybe there is something beyond natural energy that contributes to godliness.

[bluntman_exe]

This chapter to me confirms that Danzou was definitely an asshole. Mostly because when Itachi recalls Shisui telling him that Danzou stole his eye for using kotoamatsukami to stop the coup, my interpretation of that is Shisui tried to use it on his fellow Uchiha seeing as they were the instigators whose minds needed to be changed. Danzou obviously wanted the coup to continue so that someone else could kill the Uchiha making all those sharingan so much easier to get his grubby hands on. This flashback didn't detail why the Uchiha felt an unquenchable desire to overthrow the leaf, which of course isn't something Itachi wouldn't have been privy to, but such an act of treason isn't just plotted on a whim. I really hope Kishi reveals more of why they went from turning their backs on Madara and embracing the Leaf and Hashirama to eventually turning their backs on the Leaf. It has to be more than just being dissatisfied with being the cops and being suspected of being behind the Kyuubi attack.

[paulbee]

This chapter to me confirms that Danzou was definitely an asshole. Mostly because when Itachi recalls Shisui telling him that Danzou stole his eye for using kotoamatsukami to stop the coup, my interpretation of that is Shisui tried to use it on his fellow Uchiha seeing as they were the instigators whose minds needed to be changed. Danzou obviously wanted the coup to continue so that someone else could kill the Uchiha making all those sharingan so much easier to get his grubby hands on. This flashback didn't detail why the Uchiha felt an unquenchable desire to overthrow the leaf, which of course isn't something Itachi wouldn't have been privy to, but such an act of treason isn't just plotted on a whim. I really hope Kishi reveals more of why they went from turning their backs on Madara and embracing the Leaf and Hashirama to eventually turning their backs on the Leaf. It has to be more than just being dissatisfied with being the cops and being suspected of being behind the Kyuubi attack.

Yeah that's the same picture as I saw/got. Madara might have been the primary force for evil, helping to perpetuate the cycle of hatred in the Naruto verse, but Danzo and folks like him played their part too.