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  1. #21
    Senior Member Jean-Marie's Avatar
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    POW, I like your post. One think I really can't aggree on though:
    The Oro's scroll being a rinnegan? Really?
    The user of the Oro's scroll is supposed to have such a power that he will win the war. How would you win the war for sure with only a rinnegan? When there are so many rinnegans already in the field: the beasts, their jinchurikis, Tobi, madara, Nagato. Most are dead now but they weren't in the time the scroll was supposed to give the power to win the war.
    No no no.
    Something much more badass is coming up...

  2. #22
    Appearance of Darkness Aga bomBa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zero View Post
    Hmmmmm... Madara asked Kabuto if he knew their plan, but, did he call it the Moon's Eye plan ? The only thing we know is that Madara cooperated with someone and that their plan entailed capturing the bijuu, or at least the Kyubi, and resurrecting Madara.

    Those two points of view, they just can't come from the same person, or perhaps because all the worthy memories aren't his, leaves him only the bad ones that he acquired later on (assuming that he was created by Madara and has his memories).
    Quote Originally Posted by Rlinfamous View Post
    We know that Madara wanted to complete the Moon's Eye Plan, because he said to Tsuchikage that the world is better off sleeping in Infinite Tsukuyomi. Consult chapter 562, page 5.

    --->
    Quote Originally Posted by Zero View Post
    You are so behind that it's almost funny :p
    Seriously; it's true that he said to T- Kage that he thinks that the world is better off sleeping in Eternal T- Yomi, but in depth: his point of view about the world is simple " Pure Destruction ". http://i28.mangapanda.com/naruto/561/naruto-2752561.jpg

    " This is a view, I haven't enjoyed in a long time ".. Madara Uchiha is a war freak and the only thing that he wants, is achieving exactly what created this circle of hatred in the beginning with The Elder Son: Ruling the world through " Power ", and not " Love ".

    - I strongly believe that Tobi is Madara's creation, which he made before he obtained the Rinnegan. Madara Uchiha was born with the strongest chakra in Uchiha history and with the extraction of H- cells, he made himself a manipulated version of " Sage of 6 Paths ".

    Tobi's body @ this moment, is half Madara's and White- Zetzu's.. I still believe that he's a shell of his former self and that Hashirama fucked up his body that badly, that even after he extracted H- cells into his body,.. he wasn't fully capable of using it properly, his chakra source began the slow down year after year.
    H- Cells into his body did help him in evolving his EMS into a Rinnegan, but his body was already heavily injured.. so he started his Master Plan in creating an alternate version of himself with Tobi, used Nagato for reviving him later in the future.

    I first thought that Tobi slighly changed Madara's true intention by mixing up the plan, but Tobi sees himself as " No One ", so that makes me believe that Madara will come back after this Edo Release, take over Tobi and fight against Naruto/Sasuke. There's nothing more then Edo Madara being owned by the next generation with the descendants of the Younger and Elder Son, Naruto and Sasuke.
    Madara Uchiha, who truelly believes that his lineage is cursed from day one and that Hatred is their source of power.. will be owned by the two strongest, future shinobi's.

    I also believed from the moment we saw the Perfect Susanoo.. that it was the power of the Sharingan who could do that alone, and not with the help of H- Cells. And that scroll, Suigetsu said that sasuke could gain control over the war, somthing that Kabuto probably wanted to do later on.
    So far; fuckin with Tobi's plan, would be messing with his White- Zetzu army and Juugo reacted instictivly near that cave. That scroll, is going to give Sasuke, the necessary " Phyiscal Energy / Lifeforce " for eventually evoling his EMS into Rinnegan. White Zetzu and Juugo's cells are full of Nature source,but how will he do it? I stil dont know it yet..

    and yea; Gedo Mazou is Juubi's body.. that wood alike armor, 9 eyes / 9 dragons out if his mouth, being handcuffed and blindfoldled underground and of course: Shikamaru's analyzes on this Page: http://i31.mangapanda.com/naruto/537/naruto-2224305.jpg

    I seriously don't believe that Juubi's body is in the moon, it was sealed deep in the core of the eath by S06P and Nagato woke that bitch up by loss/pain/anger which was the outcome of love for his friends. Those Nine eyes will merge into ONE BIG EYE, that Armor will be released ( click on link for seeing what I mean.. it's like a bathrobe around his body: http://i3.mangapanda.com/naruto/537/naruto-2224297.jpg

    Tobi has Juubi's body already and he needs only Killer Bee for awakening it. We know that he won't capture Naruto, but he already has Kin/Gin portion of Kyuubi's RAW CHAKRA.. Juubi will be 85% of his true powers.
    ... You're Dead 2 Me Now ...

  3. #23
    Scanlator POW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by artifice View Post
    Its an interesting situation because assuming Tobi was created by Madara transfering his own memories into a new body it makes me wonder just how much they are the same. Based on what we have seen of both of them they really don't seem to have the same personality. Madara himself seems to crave battle and enjoy conflict, Tobi on the other hand seems to prefer staying in the shadows and pulling strings. Tobi seems to have more of an attitude of only doing what is necessary to win where as Madara seems to enjoy the challenge of the fight, commonly baiting and belittling his opponents. Tobi does enjoy messing with his enemies but not really in the same way, when it comes to business he really just seems to call it straight, he doesn't have the same level of bravado. Madara knows he is powerful and likes to rub it in everyone's face, he likes to show off and put his power on display. It is actually hard to think of Madara as the one who came up with the moon's eye plan, based on his attitude I don't really see why he would want everyone to become docile slaves of the Eternal Tsukuyomi.

    So the question is, what accounts for this difference? Perhaps Tobi's personality differs somewhat from Madara's because his relative lack of power forced him to live in the shadows for so many years and he could no longer afford to be as openly aggressive as Madara is/was. The interesting thing is though, Madara does seem to be the one who came up with the Moon's Eye plan since he mentions it during his battle with the Kage's. So it doesn't seem to be a case of diverging intentions, both Tobi and Madara do seem to have the same objective despite their apparent differences in personality.

    I agree with you though that Tobi does seem like the more interesting villain. Madara seems almost childishly arrogant, his boasting and insulting attitude makes him seem like a kid who never got over his inferiority complex. The way he constantly compares everyone to Hashirama makes it seem like he still hasn't gotten over the fact that he lost many decades ago and he is just lashing out at everyone because he wants to be seen as the strongest. Tobi on the other hand seems more complex, he doesn't really seem to be as interested in petty recognition or simply surpassing Hashirama. Tobi seems like someone who has bigger ideas and isn't petty enough to get hung up on the results of a mere fight. Although I do think that the Moon's Eye plan is kind of lame. Personally, I thought Orochimaru's ambition of learning the truth behind everything, mastering the secrets of the world and creating new ones was far more interesting. Tobi's plan is a very big and threatening idea though, and Tobi at least conducts himself like someone with big ideas and complex motives. Madara so far just doesn't hold up, perhaps the difference is just a result of Tobi's ambiguity but we will have to wait and see.
    The difference between their personalities stems from their experience. The real Madara has had enormous power most of his life hence why he can thumb his nose down at everyone as he has the power to back up his arrogance. Tobi was created it seems in a weakened state so had to live in the shadows because he doesn't have the power that Madara has. He had to rely on his wits and manipulation skills.



    - I suspect that there may be more to Tobi's creation than just a copy. I think in some fashion he actually represents the injuries that Madara gained & somehow Madara was able to transfer his damaged parts to Tobi and restore his injuries in his main body in some fashion. If he was truly just a copy why would he be so banged up while Madara appears to be perfectly fine.


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  4. #24
    Yesss... Rlinfamous's Avatar
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    What if Tobi isn't the creation, but the original body? He may have lost an eye/arms against Hashirama, and attempted to transfer his soul to a new, perfect Izanagi body while leaving part of himself in "Tobi" in case things went wrong. But his main power and self were transferred/lost with the death of "Madara".

  5. #25
    Scanlator POW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rlinfamous View Post
    What if Tobi isn't the creation, but the original body? He may have lost an eye/arms against Hashirama, and attempted to transfer his soul to a new, perfect Izanagi body while leaving part of himself in "Tobi" in case things went wrong. But his main power and self were transferred/lost with the death of "Madara".
    I have considered this as well and in a lot of ways it makes even more sense hence why he was missing an eye. To be clear hes not exactly transferring his soul as he is separating a part of it and storing it in the new Madara. Kind of like in Harry potter Voldemort using Holocrux's to store pieces of his soul.


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  6. #26
    Senior Member Maximo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aga bomBa View Post
    - I strongly believe that Tobi is Madara's creation, which he made before he obtained the Rinnegan. Madara Uchiha was born with the strongest chakra in Uchiha history and with the extraction of H- cells, he made himself a manipulated version of " Sage of 6 Paths ".
    All the evindecne points to the fact that Tobi is most likely "artificial" Madara of some sorts. Remember the scene in the cave where Tobi showed Kabuto his Gedou Mazou and the Zetsu army, he also revealed that he has living body of hashirama with no conscious self. I think its the same with Tobi, just that Madara must have given him part of his own memories and consciousness.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aga bomBa View Post
    I also believed from the moment we saw the Perfect Susanoo.. that it was the power of the Sharingan who could do that alone, and not with the help of H- Cells. And that scroll, Suigetsu said that sasuke could gain control over the war, somthing that Kabuto probably wanted to do later on.
    So far; fuckin with Tobi's plan, would be messing with his White- Zetzu army and Juugo reacted instictivly near that cave. That scroll, is going to give Sasuke, the necessary " Phyiscal Energy / Lifeforce " for eventually evoling his EMS into Rinnegan. White Zetzu and Juugo's cells are full of Nature source,but how will he do it? I stil dont know it yet..
    If that perfect Susanoo was done with sharingan, then why would Madara use rinnegan when activating the jutsu ? It makes more sense to believe it was done with Rinnegan at this point bcs we have just that one evidence suggesting it.
    As for that Orochimaru scroll, well if its something so important and powerfull then I too am inclined to think its a Rinnegan boost. Oros plan from the start was to gain Sasukes body for his sharingan but as was shown Oro was greedier than that. He wanted the ultimate tools to gain the atmost understanding of life. Thats why he most likely didnt just want sharingan, I bet he secretely discoverd a serum for uchihas that would give them Rinnegan.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aga bomBa View Post
    and yea; Gedo Mazou is Juubi's body.. that wood alike armor, 9 eyes / 9 dragons out if his mouth, being handcuffed and blindfoldled underground and of course: Shikamaru's analyzes on this Page: http://i31.mangapanda.com/naruto/537/naruto-2224305.jpg
    It would made more sense if that Gedou Mazou statue was a sort of guardian and enforcer of Jyuubi. Rikudou Sage in order to seal Jyuubis body in the moon needed to first unlseal it, extract its chakra and then imprison its empty vessel in the moon. Maybe he thought its too big a deed for him to do and so he created Gedou Mazou statue. Just think about it, the statue has enormous sealing capabilities, its powerfull and pretty much undestructable, those are exactly the things needed in order to stand a chance against Jyuubi, subdue it and extract all its chakra.
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  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by POW View Post
    The difference between their personalities stems from their experience. The real Madara has had enormous power most of his life hence why he can thumb his nose down at everyone as he has the power to back up his arrogance. Tobi was created it seems in a weakened state so had to live in the shadows because he doesn't have the power that Madara has. He had to rely on his wits and manipulation skills.
    That is quite possible but what I am wondering is if that is the only reason they are different. Tobi seems to have different desires than Madara. Madara seems to truly relish in fame, glory, and combat but he has implied that the Moon's Eye Plan was his idea. Tobi has indicated that basically his sole interest is the Moon's Eye plan and has no interest in even his own identity. So the question becomes, is Tobi merely a puppet created by Madara's memories, or does Tobi actually have a will of his own.

    Quote Originally Posted by POW View Post
    - I suspect that there may be more to Tobi's creation than just a copy. I think in some fashion he actually represents the injuries that Madara gained & somehow Madara was able to transfer his damaged parts to Tobi and restore his injuries in his main body in some fashion. If he was truly just a copy why would he be so banged up while Madara appears to be perfectly fine.
    That's a good point. I have always kind of been curious as to what extent Tobi is a true Uchiha and to what extent he is artificial. From what little we have seen of his face, at least a part of Madara appears to be human and since he previously kept one eye covered, that leads me to believe that at least a part of him really is a true Uchiha. It is quite possible that a part of Madara did not die but was left in a dying state. He was able to prolong his life long enough to create the Rinnegan but still died and only sustained himself by copying his personality into Tobi. Tobi then could have taken the remnants of Madara's body and fused them with himself to use some of the Uchiha's powers. Or it could be the opposite. Perhaps Tobi's body is Madara's real body (which was damaged by Hashirama) and in order to survive Madara transferred his Soul into a new body. Then Madara attempted to use the Heretical Demon Statue but the new body could not survive the process. Perhaps for similar reasons to what we saw happen with Orochimaru. Tobi is perhaps what was left behind when Madara's soul left his body.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maximo View Post
    All the evindecne points to the fact that Tobi is most likely "artificial" Madara of some sorts. Remember the scene in the cave where Tobi showed Kabuto his Gedou Mazou and the Zetsu army, he also revealed that he has living body of hashirama with no conscious self. I think its the same with Tobi, just that Madara must have given him part of his own memories and consciousness.
    I think there is some truth to that but it still leaves a lot of questions. If Tobi is a copy like the copy of Hashirama then when does Tobi still hide his face and body? The Hashirama duplicate looked basically identical to Hashirama himself with not obvious physical flaws, aside from being fused to a plant (which I assume was just tobi's way of accessing his abilities). If Tobi were simply a duplicate body with Madara's memories then there would be very little reason to hide his appearance at this stage. Tobi must have some odd physical characteristics. I believe that Tobi contains Madara's memories but physically he is a mash up of multiple bodies.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maximo View Post
    If that perfect Susanoo was done with sharingan, then why would Madara use rinnegan when activating the jutsu ? It makes more sense to believe it was done with Rinnegan at this point bcs we have just that one evidence suggesting it.
    As for that Orochimaru scroll, well if its something so important and powerfull then I too am inclined to think its a Rinnegan boost. Oros plan from the start was to gain Sasukes body for his sharingan but as was shown Oro was greedier than that. He wanted the ultimate tools to gain the atmost understanding of life. Thats why he most likely didnt just want sharingan, I bet he secretely discoverd a serum for uchihas that would give them Rinnegan.
    Its possible that the Perfect Susanoo is only possible with the Rinnegan but its still difficult to say. Madara seemed to be able to use the Rinnegan's abilities in conjunction with the Sharingan's abilities so I don't think that's really a clear indicator of the Rinnegan being a requirement. Since the Rinnegan is the next level of the Sharingan it makes sense that he would be able to use the abilities of both. We also have yet to see the full potential of the Eternal Mangekyou because Madara hardly used it before switching to the Rinnegan and Sasuke still hasn't used his much (and as with the previous versions he probably has to use it a bit before he figures out the limits of its power). I tend to think it is a Eternal Mangekyou ability because Madara implied that he had used it against Hashirama. Also, I tend to think that the EMS offers a more significant upgrade to the Susanoo and sofar, Sasuke's Susanoo still seems like it is at roughly the same level as Itachi's.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maximo View Post
    It would made more sense if that Gedou Mazou statue was a sort of guardian and enforcer of Jyuubi. Rikudou Sage in order to seal Jyuubis body in the moon needed to first unlseal it, extract its chakra and then imprison its empty vessel in the moon. Maybe he thought its too big a deed for him to do and so he created Gedou Mazou statue. Just think about it, the statue has enormous sealing capabilities, its powerfull and pretty much undestructable, those are exactly the things needed in order to stand a chance against Jyuubi, subdue it and extract all its chakra.
    I was originally on board with the idea the the Heretical Statue was indeed the Juubi's body but I always thought that didn't explain the idea that the Juubi's original body was sealed in the moon. It is probably more likely that the Heretical Demon Statue was created by the Sage of Six Path's to battle and capture the Juubi's chakra. I believe that both Susanoo and the Statue are two parts of a body that the Sage created to augment his physical and spiritual power enough to battle the massive power of the Juubi. We have already seen signs of Madara apparently using Susanoo to boost the power of the Shinra Tensei. I think that with the Susanoo and Heretical Demon Statue the Sage was able to suppress the Juubi (much the way Hashirama could suppress Bijuu) and used its enhanced power to create the moon prison which now holds the Juubi's body.

  8. #28
    Senior Member knife eater's Avatar
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    Orochimaru and the human who knows everything. In all the fun with making theories we gotta acknowledge orochimaru's greatness once again and the likelihood its more than we imagined. Orochimaru was connected to absolutely everything important in the world of naruto. Look at flashbacks, we see him present with young nagato but never madara or tobi. Orochimaru worked with madara, had membership in akatsuki, was tied with danzo, intimately knew two hokages, infiltrated and murdered others. Knew the information contained on the uchiha tablets, knew the true history and origin of the shinobi world, had more than one method if immortality, was a major player in two ninja wars and nearly started another. He knows more and has so much access through his network of hideouts to a multitude of clans,bloodlines, powers and governments. What he accomplished is staggering if given the one lifetime we assume he has had so far alongside jaraya and tsunade. What he has access to and how he has approached so many important people from so many angles makes him out to be an orchestrater of epic proportion. He's been around alot longer than the third homage believes when he fondly recalls memories of the young boy and the snake

  9. #29
    Senior Member psukkar's Avatar
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    to be honest im in the minorty camp that sasuke and naruto fight seriously. Maybe a sparring match after the tobi and madara saga is all finshed but not a serious match like in part 1.

    Sasuke talking hasihrma cells would be reduntant at this point, also I belioeve the whole ppoint od sasuke is to show us what EMS is capable of as with edo madara is very hard to tell where hasihrama and rinnegan powers intervene with his sharingan.


    Regarding tobi, we shall see.

  10. #30
    Senior Member Kenny Bones's Avatar
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    Regarding Gedo Mazo and the ten tails, look at this page: http://i3.mangapanda.com/naruto/537/naruto-2224297.jpg
    Look at the panel where Gedo Mazo says "Owoaaaahhhh". Never noticed it before, but those things sticking out of his back is kinda glowing. And with some Japanese words around each one. Why is that even there? Looks to me like those things sticking out of his back used to be the tails. I know other people have pointed out that those things could very well have been the tails he used to have.

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