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  1. #11
    Appearance of Darkness Aga bomBa's Avatar
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    Nice read POW.. like always!

    - Though I don't see Sasuke getting or using Hashirama's powers. It just doesn't fit.. and remember what Itachi said to Sasuke: Madara is became a shell of his former self, he isn't even WORTHED for wielding the title of a " True Uchiha " anymore.

    This means that Sasuke will increase his powers through anger/hatred to another level; and Oro's scroll is going to help him from step 1 to 3. There's a reason why Juugo reacted like that, near that cave. I think that Juugo's powers is very close related to Nature; something close to the lineage of the younger son ( Juugo feeling all in peace with birds flying around him etc.. )

    Juugo already have half of his powers to Sasuke, when he was gettin beaten by Killer Bee. Later on; we saw him extract the life out of a Samurai and grew from a child looking person to a grown man. Juugo's sacrifice will be needed, for giving some powers to Sasuke ( which could be written down on that scroll ).
    Orochimaru was after the sharingan and needed an Uchiha body. Orochimaru with all his experiments, could have founded a way for evolving Sharingan --> Rinnegan, and it's not going to be Hashirama's powers this time: it could be Juugo's.

    That's why Sasuke will not be using Mokuton at all, and too be honest: I don't want Naruto to use it either. You're totally right by saying that it was all a forshadowing when Edo Madara came into the picture and showed off his powers. Everybody thinks that Rasen-Shuriken was too much for Edo Madara, and that's why he used Rinnegan.
    Who says that Perfect Susanoo couldn't stop such power?? Rasen Shuriken was so close, so he probably didn't had to for summoning Susanoo; thats why he used Rinnegan + this way Kishimoto made him look fuckin badass when he used Rinnegan after his EMS.

    I also still think, that Itachi will give him something with his poke on his forehead; will it be a flashback of Uchiha Massacre, or the Totsuka Sword + Mirror?
    Imagine Sasuke's Pefect Susanoo with 4 arms, wielding; arrow, Bow, Mirror and Totsuka Sword.. and lets say that he will get the Rinnegan also. Now, Naruto has to mix his Sage into this Kyuubi Mode and his final power up, will be the soul power of all the other Bijuu's.

    I completely agree with you, that Tobi will try to use Sasuke's body for a sacrifice; his plan for reviving Madara back into the picture. And like you said; he could only do that, when Sasuke has the Rinnegan ( without Rinnegan, Sasuke will die immediately ). And the funny thing is: even IF SASUKE gets the Rinnegan, he will still die eventually, because his body doesn't has the necessary nature LIFE FORCE / PHYSICAL POWERS, like Naruto does. This was probably the reason why Edo Madara died back in the days; he became a manipulated version of SO6P.. he wasn't destined.
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  2. #12
    Senior Member Zero's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aga bomBa View Post
    Nice read POW.. like always!

    - Though I don't see Sasuke getting or using Hashirama's powers. It just doesn't fit.. and remember what Itachi said to Sasuke: Madara is became a shell of his former self, he isn't even WORTHED for wielding the title of a " True Uchiha " anymore.

    This means that Sasuke will increase his powers through anger/hatred to another level; and Oro's scroll is going to help him from step 1 to 3. There's a reason why Juugo reacted like that, near that cave. I think that Juugo's powers is very close related to Nature; something close to the lineage of the younger son ( Juugo feeling all in peace with birds flying around him etc.. )

    Juugo already have half of his powers to Sasuke, when he was gettin beaten by Killer Bee. Later on; we saw him extract the life out of a Samurai and grew from a child looking person to a grown man. Juugo's sacrifice will be needed, for giving some powers to Sasuke ( which could be written down on that scroll ).
    Orochimaru was after the sharingan and needed an Uchiha body. Orochimaru with all his experiments, could have founded a way for evolving Sharingan --> Rinnegan, and it's not going to be Hashirama's powers this time: it could be Juugo's.

    That's why Sasuke will not be using Mokuton at all, and too be honest: I don't want Naruto to use it either. You're totally right by saying that it was all a forshadowing when Edo Madara came into the picture and showed off his powers. Everybody thinks that Rasen-Shuriken was too much for Edo Madara, and that's why he used Rinnegan.
    Who says that Perfect Susanoo couldn't stop such power?? Rasen Shuriken was so close, so he probably didn't had to for summoning Susanoo; thats why he used Rinnegan + this way Kishimoto made him look fuckin badass when he used Rinnegan after his EMS.

    I also still think, that Itachi will give him something with his poke on his forehead; will it be a flashback of Uchiha Massacre, or the Totsuka Sword + Mirror?
    Imagine Sasuke's Pefect Susanoo with 4 arms, wielding; arrow, Bow, Mirror and Totsuka Sword.. and lets say that he will get the Rinnegan also. Now, Naruto has to mix his Sage into this Kyuubi Mode and his final power up, will be the soul power of all the other Bijuu's.

    I completely agree with you, that Tobi will try to use Sasuke's body for a sacrifice; his plan for reviving Madara back into the picture. And like you said; he could only do that, when Sasuke has the Rinnegan ( without Rinnegan, Sasuke will die immediately ). And the funny thing is: even IF SASUKE gets the Rinnegan, he will still die eventually, because his body doesn't has the necessary nature LIFE FORCE / PHYSICAL POWERS, like Naruto does. This was probably the reason why Edo Madara died back in the days; he became a manipulated version of SO6P.. he wasn't destined.
    You are so behind that it's almost funny :p.

    It was already explained that Juugo's ability is the power to absorb natural energy naturally(), it's a kind of kekkei genkai that allows you to achieve a premature/watered-down version of Sage Mode.
    An outside source of an additional powerful energy, often ends up in creating alternate personalities (look at Xenogears for another example ). The reason behind his bursts and dual personality is exactly that uncontrollable energy (after all, it can only be truly achieved through extremely hard, intense training).

    Probably, since Uchihas are all about their inside powers, they don't like to rely on outside sources (Sage Mode, other people etc.).

    No, Yuugo only replaced Sasuker's damaged cells, with his own, it didn't give him any power whatsoever (quite strange though, seeing as Kabuto did a similar thing to himself and it affected him greatly ;p).

    No, Complete Susanoo almost certainly could stop it, but it wasn't the Rasen shuriken itself that would have slain a normal Madara, but a combination of Garaa and Naruto's attacks. Garaa through using his sand, removed Madara from Susanoo, leaving Susanoo behind to slowly fade away and thus leaving Madara defenseless against Naruto's prized attack. Of course, a H-face boosted Madara gained an extraordinary amounts of additional chakra, thus allowing him to manifest Susanoo through his clones, but we are talking about Madara that fought Hashirama and not his 'already surpassed prime' state.

    No, Sasuke will not obtain Itachi's sword, since Sasuke's specialization isn't genjutsu and thus he wouldn't be able to pull it off. He first would have to be capable of casting Tsukuyomi, to even begin of dreaming about the sword (although an alteration where it only seals could be possible).



  3. #13
    Appearance of Darkness Aga bomBa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zero View Post
    You are so behind that it's almost funny :p.
    Why would I be behind, when I said that in my post?? I said that; " it was very close related to Nature ".. even if Kabuto explained that during Sasuke/Itachi's fight ( sage part ), it believe it goes even deeper then that.

    - Yes, it didn't give him DIRECTLY a power-up, when he gave his powers to Sasuke during Killer Bee's fight, because the transformation where he needs it, will come later in the manga. I also believe that it wasn't enough power for further evolvement + he didn't had the EMS and of course; his level of anger/hatred is right now on a far more higher level. Juugo said that he would sacrifice himself for Kimimaro and Sasuke, and his sacrifice will happen, which will benefit Sasuke later on. And you probably understood me wrong; I didn't say, that he's going to relay on outside sources ( like sage ), I said that Juugo's powers is going to be from great use, for his next transformation ( his body is already capable of having the Cursed Seal, so who knows; maybe by having more of Juugo's powers inside of him, will be the neccesary lifeforce/physical energy he needs, for evolving his EMS to another level).

    Besides; Uchiha's don't rely on outside source, " other people".. ? Well, you know that they are using other people A LOT, for achieving their goals Madara relied on Nagato, Madara needed Hashirama's DNA.. Sasuke relied on Karin's help etc.. their way of using outside sources is from another level then what Naruto does.

    I can't remember where it's been stated, that you had to be specialized in Genjutsu, for wielding the Totsuka Sword ?? It's obvious for me, that his Susanoo could also wield that sword, seal everybody and put then under eternal gejutsu.
    About Madara's perfect Susanoo, I believe that he had that back in the days.. and not because of Kabuto's H-face boost on his chest.

    So far, I'm not far behind and I hope you could provide me the info, where it stands.. that you need to be specialized in gejutsu for wielding Totsuka sword.
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  4. #14
    Senior Member Zero's Avatar
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    ^ The Susanoo you can summon comes from the 2 MS jutsu you have obtained/mastered, which means that Susanoo is build upon those jutsu, where one of them builds/summons it's body, while the other one creates it's weapons (in Itachi's case: Tsukuyomi; Sasuke's: Kagutsuchi). At least Sasuke said that you have to first obtain the 2 MS jutsu and Tobi said that even then it's rare to awoken Susanoo.

    Funny enough, Sasuke's and Itachi's Amaterasu are meant to summon/create Susanoo's body, I wouldn't be surprised if that was the base condition, since that jutsu has a summon-like properties.

    It's worth mentioning that all MS jutsu are named after Gods, or are at least related to them (currently only in Kakashi's case, where his jutsu isn't named after a deity, but means: Power of Gods, or something along those lines ;P).



  5. #15
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    Interesting points POW. I agree, at least to a point, I disagree on a few points which I will address below. As you have said I think that while the battle of Madara gave us a glimpse of what Madara is really capable of and why he is to be so feared it also provided us with a lot of information about the Sharingan, the Rinnegan, Hashirama's powers and how they are all linked. We really haven't been given a reason for why Tobi considers Sasuke to be so important to his plans but the battle with Madara gave us some major hints. I believe that the two most significant hints are that the Rinnegan is evolved from the Sharingan and Susanoo goes even further than we initially thought.

    Tobi already has the Rinnegan, the Sharingan, and the Heretical Demon Statue, so I always wondered why he needed Sasuke but the last few chapters gave some very Major hints. As we have been told Madara created the Rinnegan after his battle with Hashirama but he died sometime after that. Based on what we have seen and what Madara has said, no one other than Hashirama had a chance of beating him even before the he had the Rinnegan, so after obtaining it, it seems highly unlikely that he could have been killed in combat. So how did he die? I believe that he died trying to Sync with the Heretical Demon Statue, which is a necessary step to completing the Rinnegan (as we have seen Nagato's rinnegan and even Edo Madara's do not seem to grant them all of the most powerful abilities of the Original Sage of the Six Paths. We have already seen that the Heretical Demon Statue takes and combines powers within itself. Tobi was able to use the Heretical Demon Statue to channel the power of the Bijuu and create the white Zetsu army. We also know that Synching with the Statue is extremely dangerous to the user, Nagato who was an Uzumaki with high chakra and extreme life force almost died after synching with it for just a few seconds. I always wondered how Sasuke would be able to synch with it when Nagato nearly died using it. I believe that Susanoo is the answer. Susanoo has multiple similarities to the Heretical Demon Statue. It drains the life force of its user and it has powerful Spiritual weapons. Obviously they are also very different as well but I believe those differences are exactly why they fit together. The Heretical Demon Statue is a physical body with immense physical power that can consume spiritual power and Chakra. It is normal in stasis but when it is used it seems to be wild and difficult to control, like it has a will of its own. Susanoo on the other hand seems to be completely in tune with its user, like it is merely an extension of their own will. I believe that the Heretical Demon Statue and Susanoo (the completed Susanoo) are two parts of the same whole. The Heretical Demon Statue can only properly be controlled by someone who has completely mastered Susanoo because Susanoo is like the soul of the Heretical Demon Statue. I believe that the Heretical Demon Statue is also incomplete and only someone with both Mastery of Hashirama's powers and mastery of the Susanoo can fully complete it.

    So the question then becomes, how did Madara die by synching with the Statue considering he had mastered the perfect Susanoo? My theory is that Madara died because he did not truly obtain Hashirama's powers before his death or at least he did not properly learn to control them. As we were told during the battle with the 5 kages, Madara did not obtain Hashirama's powers before he died. As Kabuto said he had made Madara more powerful than he was in his prime and it is revealed that the reason for that is that he had been augmented with Hashirama's powers. I also believe that the Heretical Demon Statue must have the chakra of all of the 9 bijuu in order to be completed (9 beasts Nine Tomoe) I believe the Sage of Six Paths not only divided the 10-tails power he also divided part of the Rinnegans power. I believe that Madara likely attempted to synch with the Statue before he had properly fused Hashirama's cells with his own and as a result he died and the Rinnegan was never completed.


    Quote Originally Posted by POW View Post
    Another big prediction...


    :Sasuke:

    Oh boy you know this idea I'm not so crazy about but I have this strong feeling this is exactly where the story is going so I have to post it here.

    With the latest chapters we have seen all these Edo Madara super powers but you have to wonder what has been the point of showing us all of this stuff only to have Edo Madara go away. I think this is a type of foreshadowing of whats is to come later and by that I think you know what I mean....

    [/sigh] Yes Sasuke is going to get Hashrima cells added to his body to enhance his power. Although it wont be the level of enhancement Edo Madara has because that is due to Kabuto's expertise as a medical ninja who has studied Hashrima's cells. Tobi also has Hashrima cells but he doesn't use mokutan jutsu's because his enhancement is of a different scale compared to the Hashrima face that Danzou & Edo Madara got.

    So yeah the whole performance by Madara was to give us a rough idea of what is really possible with both powers. Sasuke's power wont be nearly as powerful as Edo Madara but perhaps a slightly lower version of the same Final Susanoo power. After all Sasuke has to go up against Naruto and the Kyuubi hes going to need a great deal of power to counter that.
    I agree that Sasuke will obtain the Rinnegan and Hashirama's cells as I said above I think that is essential to completing the True Rinnegan and properly synching with the Heretical Demon Statue. I do not think that obtaining Hashirama's cells is necessary to master the Susanoo though. I think that Sasuke will master the Susanoo before he is ever given Hashirama's abilities. Madara hinted that he had control of the full powered Susanoo when he fought Hashirama so I do not believe that it is a by product of the Rinnegan or Hashirama's cells. Susanoo is a spiritual being and thus a manifestation of the power of the Elder Son of the Sage of Six Paths. I believe that the Elder Brother possessed the power of Susanoo. Based on the way Madara talks, Susanoo seems to predate him but we know that Madara was the first person to obtain the Eternal Mangekyou. I believe that the Eternal Mangekyou is just an altered version of the eyes that the Elder brother possessed. Another hint is the seemingly different abilities of Mangekyou users. I believe that even the Eternal Mangekyou is not the fully realized version of the Elder brother's power. I believe that is why not all of the Mangekyou powers are available to users of the EMS. Which may be a further hint as to why Madara failed to complete the Rinnegan. I think the same also applies for Hashirama's powers. As we have seen, Naruto's new powers seems to enhance the powers of the Wood Release and that implies that they are a part of the younger brother's lineage (since he inherited the Sage's body).


    Quote Originally Posted by POW View Post
    Which brings us to the other part of this story which is whats in Orochimaru's super secret scroll ? Well considering Orochimaru's ultimate goal was to understand the secret of ninjutsu thus his obsession with the Sharingan. I'm going to assume its the blueprint on how to enhance the Sharingan to Rinnegan. Which will give Sasuke reason to go along with Tobi's plan but for his own reason of gaining greater power. Also given how strong Naruto is and the fact even Tobi is having trouble dealing with him means he knows Sasuke will also need a boost in order to challenge him.
    I agree but I would go further to say that I think the scrolls contain a lot of information on the bloodlines of both the Elder and Younger brothers. I think that Orochimaru discovered the true connections between the Senju, Uchiha and Uzumaki. We know know that he experimented on all three and he had a hypothesis about Madara and Tobi's plan. I believe that the scrolls out line all of those details.

    Quote Originally Posted by POW View Post
    There is another reason why I think this is going to happen and it is because Tobi himself mentions he wants to use Sasuke as a pawn for the GM statue. I think in order to use that statue you need to have both Uchiha + Senju powers so like it or not it may be inevitable.
    Again I agree with you, but I would go further to say that there may be even more to it than that. As we saw with Naruto's powers reacting to the Wood Release I believe that something similar will happen with the Heretical Demon Statue. The Statue resembles a humanoid fossilized tree, I believe that in order for it to be fully active it needs the tailed beasts. The Heretical Demon Statue looks incomplete, the branches from its back appear broken and it looks like a vague human form (somewhat like Susanoo in its early stages). As I mentioned above, I think that the Heretical Demon Statue is a pure physical manifestation of the physical powers of the younger brother, much like Susanoo is a pure manifestation of the Elder Brother's powers.

    Quote Originally Posted by POW View Post
    To be clear just because Sasuke takes Hashrima cells does not mean he will gain the Rinnegan immediately after. Even Edo Madara didnt gain the Rinnegan until near the end of his life. I think just like activating the Sharingan & MS their is a method of awakening the Rinnegan that requires extreme emotion. The more immediate difference will probably be increased stamina and a more powerful Suanoo or well basically a boost to all of Sasuke's jutsu's. Howevere even is Sasuke does awaken the Rinnegan he probably doesn't know all its functions or wont be proficient at using it.
    I have mixed feelings on this. I am uncertain about exactly how the true Rinnegan will be formed because I think there are still a couple details we are missing. I still think that their is more to learn about both the Sharingan (powers of the Elder brother and the physical powers of the younger brother before we can gain a complete picture of how the true Rinnegan will be formed. I think there is a very good reason for why we have not been told how Kakashi awakened his Mangekyou, why we have not been told what really happened to the Uzumaki clan, and what really happened during the Uchiha massacre. I think that all three of those things are connected and important to filling in gaps about the bloodlines. I think that once we have seen what those gaps are we will have a better idea of why exactly Madara failed to complete his plans the first time and what Tobi intends to do differently this time. I believe that Sasuke's eyes will not evolve exactly as Madara's did but in at least some ways they will be improved. I don't think Sasuke will ever obtain the true powers of Madara but his powers will instead be closer to what the Elder brother's powers were. Just as I believe Naruto's will eventually be close to what the younger brother's were. Madara's powers are and will be a mishmash of both but not as pure and that is, one of the main reasons, why I think he will ultimately lose to the combined power of Naruto and Sasuke. I doubt that either Naruto or Sasuke will truly surpass Madara by the series end, I believe team work is too important to the series for that to happen. Instead both Naruto and Sasuke will each discover things that Madara does not possess and by unifying they will overcome him.

    Quote Originally Posted by POW View Post
    To be honest part of the reason I didnt want Sasuke to get these enhancements was because I thought that Naruto vs Sasuke would be based on their native abilities and any alteration would create an unbalance. However it does fit the entire theme of Uchiha focusing on power and hatred vs Will of Fire - inner strength.
    I think that Naruto and Sasuke will fight before either of them truly completes their power and before Tobi uses Sasuke for his plan. As Tobi already said he wants Naruto and Sasuke to fight, he counts on them to recreate the battle between the Younger and Elder brothers. As we have seen Tobi has made it a point to continuously put Sasuke in dangerous battles to force his abilities to evolve. I think that Tobi fully intends to have Sasuke push his powers to the limit against Naruto and then he himself can intervene when Sasuke has fully evolved but is weakened from the battle and then he can use him as he intended. Sasuke is still not ready to be used for Tobi's purposes and he needs some serious battles to evolve more. Tobi even said that a big part of Naruto's role is to force Sasuke to reach the height of his potential.

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by POW View Post
    :Tobi:

    Okay I'm going to take it one step further and add my speculation on Tobi. Many of us have theorized that Tobi was created by Madara perhaps using his Rinnegan and the Creation of All Things jutsu to create a separate lifeform from his own body & chakra similar to how the Rikudou Sage created the 9 Bijuu.

    The harder question to answer is why?

    The answer may be remarkably simple given what their plan is. Lets look at what we know and that Tobi stated himself he wanted Nagato to save his power for himself. Tobi said he wants to use Sasuke as a pawn. Edo Madara awoke and thought he was revived by Nagato.

    So what was the point of creating Tobi that Madara would even risk death? The one point that keeps showing up is that a pawn is needed for snyc with Gendou Mezu!!! Which means using it comes at some risk as we have seen the results from Nagato becoming skinny. The way Tobi is using GM for battle and the process of actually recreating the 10 tails are wholly different.
    As I mentioned above, I think that Madara died using the Statue. I think as you said, one of the reasons Madara created Tobi is because he had a suspicion that he would die in the process of trying to use the Statue and he needed a way to bring himself back. I believe that the 4th power of the Eternal Mangekyou has something to do with copying ones self into another body. This would explain why Tobi seems to know everything that Madara knew in life and he also refers to himself as Madara. I think that Tobi is a new life form but he possesses all of Madara's memories and experiences. Tobi also said that a part of his plan is to become complete. I think that this refers to two things. Tobi does not have Madara's body (which is why he doesn't have most of his powers), he was also referring to uniting the bloodlines and completing the Rinnegan (Tobi thinks of himself as the successor to the Sage of Six Paths). Tobi also seems to struggle with identity issues, he considered himself Madara but now we see him stating that he is no one and doesn't want to be anyone, he just wants to complete the plan. This attitude makes a lot of sense if we consider that Tobi is a new life form created solely for the purpose of completing Madara's plans but with Madara's memories.

    Quote Originally Posted by POW View Post
    In order to use GM one needs the Rinnegan which means Edo Madara must have come up with plan to use Nagato as a controllable pawn and created Tobi as his alter ego to make sure everything goes according to plan but this lead to Madara dying. Nagato was suppose to reform the 10 tails then use his remaining life force to revive Madara back to life then die from exhasution. Its one thing to just have someone with the Rinnegan but as Tobi said controlling someone means understanding how to control the darkness in their hearts and Nagato was easily influenced hence why he made a good pawn for their plans. Gathering the Bijuu was one thing but synching to GM and using its full powers was quite another and not something Madara wanted to risk knowing it would kill him.
    A major part of the Uchiha evolution process involves sacrifice. It would make sense if the next step to evolving the Sharingan is to sacrifice the life of someone who has the Eternal Mangekyou. Madara was the only one who had the Eternal Mangekyou so it makes sense that he would need to give up his own life to evolve it into the Rinnegan. As you have mentioned Madara must have known that he would die and that is why he created Tobi, to resurrect him once the plan has fully developed. Madara seemed to imply that he had been resurrected ahead of schedule, which leads me to believe that he did not want to be resurrected until everything was in place.

    Quote Originally Posted by POW View Post
    This is ultimately the role Sasuke is taking over in Tobi's plans being the new pawn to sacrifice himself without knowing it for Madara's sake.

    The idea was that once Madara is brought back Tobi may be able to re-merge with him and become complete and then they can become the 10 tails host and do their eye of the Moon plan. I have hard time seeing Tobi's body being the host of the 10 tails on its own given how flimsy it looks with arms falling off and all. So only by becoming complete can Tobi/Madara carry out their plans.
    Agreed, I believe that once Madara is resurrected he will absorb Tobi back into himself and thus gain all of Tobi's experiences along with his own power. Then he can take the fully awakened Rinnegan from Sasuke and take control of the fully activated Heretical Demon Statue. Tobi has already implied the Sasuke will only be useful to him to a point. He told Kabuto that he could have Sasuke once he was finished with him. While that might have been partially a joke I think that Tobi was really saying that once he has taken what he wants from Sasuke, Sasuke will be useless to him and his plans will be far enough along that he will have no reason to fear Kabuto taking Sasuke.

    Like I said, I think there are still some pieces missing but I agree with your general conclusion and came to a similar conclusion as well. I think roughly this is how things will go.

  7. #17
    Yesss... Rlinfamous's Avatar
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    I like the theory about Tobi being re-absorbed into Madara, causing Madara to gain all of Tobi's experiences. I think that Tobi is the more matured, overall superior villain between the two, and I'd like to see Tobi basically "take over" the original Madara. Madara can be absorbed into the "No One" and essentially be the first victim of his vision for Mugen Tsukuyomi. To clarify, I think that if Madara gains all of Tobi's experiences, he will no longer be Madara, but will in fact become Tobi. So Madara thinks he's the one absorbing, but in actuality is being changed, while Tobi continues himself/his plans in Madara's body.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rlinfamous View Post
    I like the theory about Tobi being re-absorbed into Madara, causing Madara to gain all of Tobi's experiences. I think that Tobi is the more matured, overall superior villain between the two, and I'd like to see Tobi basically "take over" the original Madara. Madara can be absorbed into the "No One" and essentially be the first victim of his vision for Mugen Tsukuyomi. To clarify, I think that if Madara gains all of Tobi's experiences, he will no longer be Madara, but will in fact become Tobi. So Madara thinks he's the one absorbing, but in actuality is being changed, while Tobi continues himself/his plans in Madara's body.
    Its an interesting situation because assuming Tobi was created by Madara transfering his own memories into a new body it makes me wonder just how much they are the same. Based on what we have seen of both of them they really don't seem to have the same personality. Madara himself seems to crave battle and enjoy conflict, Tobi on the other hand seems to prefer staying in the shadows and pulling strings. Tobi seems to have more of an attitude of only doing what is necessary to win where as Madara seems to enjoy the challenge of the fight, commonly baiting and belittling his opponents. Tobi does enjoy messing with his enemies but not really in the same way, when it comes to business he really just seems to call it straight, he doesn't have the same level of bravado. Madara knows he is powerful and likes to rub it in everyone's face, he likes to show off and put his power on display. It is actually hard to think of Madara as the one who came up with the moon's eye plan, based on his attitude I don't really see why he would want everyone to become docile slaves of the Eternal Tsukuyomi.

    So the question is, what accounts for this difference? Perhaps Tobi's personality differs somewhat from Madara's because his relative lack of power forced him to live in the shadows for so many years and he could no longer afford to be as openly aggressive as Madara is/was. The interesting thing is though, Madara does seem to be the one who came up with the Moon's Eye plan since he mentions it during his battle with the Kage's. So it doesn't seem to be a case of diverging intentions, both Tobi and Madara do seem to have the same objective despite their apparent differences in personality.

    I agree with you though that Tobi does seem like the more interesting villain. Madara seems almost childishly arrogant, his boasting and insulting attitude makes him seem like a kid who never got over his inferiority complex. The way he constantly compares everyone to Hashirama makes it seem like he still hasn't gotten over the fact that he lost many decades ago and he is just lashing out at everyone because he wants to be seen as the strongest. Tobi on the other hand seems more complex, he doesn't really seem to be as interested in petty recognition or simply surpassing Hashirama. Tobi seems like someone who has bigger ideas and isn't petty enough to get hung up on the results of a mere fight. Although I do think that the Moon's Eye plan is kind of lame. Personally, I thought Orochimaru's ambition of learning the truth behind everything, mastering the secrets of the world and creating new ones was far more interesting. Tobi's plan is a very big and threatening idea though, and Tobi at least conducts himself like someone with big ideas and complex motives. Madara so far just doesn't hold up, perhaps the difference is just a result of Tobi's ambiguity but we will have to wait and see.

  9. #19
    Senior Member Zero's Avatar
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    Hmmmmm... Madara asked Kabuto if he knew their plan, but, did he call it the Moon's Eye plan ? The only thing we know is that Madara cooperated with someone and that their plan entailed capturing the bijuu, or at least the Kyubi, and resurrecting Madara.

    There is one more thing that distinguish them, it's their take on the world and it's matters. Madara seems to want the world, as it's worth obtaining, he seems to even like it's dark side and believe that there are worthwhile people living in it (like Hashirama, his brother until death ?, his clan to some point) . On the other hand, Tobi consider this world to be rubbish, he considers humans to be rotten, to the point that he hast to do something with it, that he can't take it anymore and is going to change or destroy it.

    Those two points of view, they just can't come from the same person, or perhaps because all the worthy memories aren't his, leaves him only the bad ones that he acquired later on (assuming that he was created by Madara and has his memories). The way Tobi speaks, it's like he never even once had happiness in his life, it's like he was born from darkness, into darkness, to live in it and return to it after death. He knows humanities dark side more than anyone else and sincerely believes that there is no hope in it. He is in a far, far worse state than Nagato, who still believed that a short-while, momentary happiness can be acquired, between the strings of pain.

    Yet, if that were true, then what's the point of completing the MEP ? If there was no hope, then that shouldn't work, or rather If there was nothing worthy in him and in the world, then he she shouldn't even cling to his purpose of live, that was (supposedly) given by Madara.

    It could be said, that Tobi never lived, but isn't dead either. This concept seems to be clearly shown in his only original jutsu ? (for now that is ;P). Rather, it feels like all MS and sharingan related jutsu are reflections of the user's desires. Amaterasu, the desire to destroy, his own clan (Itachi) or his own village (Sasuke). Kagutsuchi - to control destruction; Tsukuyomi - to control the reality that is made up of lies. Kamui - to alter that which can't be undone. Izanagi - to make dreams come true (supposedly); Izanagi - to awaken from dreams.



  10. #20
    Yesss... Rlinfamous's Avatar
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    We know that Madara wanted to complete the Moon's Eye Plan, because he said to Tsuchikage that the world is better off sleeping in Infinite Tsukuyomi. Consult chapter 562, page 5.

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