Naruto 588-589 Discussion / 590 Predictions

[lazybum]

First I got to say, Kishi really overdid it a little bit. This is becoming like Dragon Ball Z, where in the end they had to find planets for their fight. I miss the old times where cleverly used jutsus were more important than raw power.

don't worry, the final battle will probably be won using a strategy, and team work, as are the principals of konoha

And, yes, Madara wasn't so strong when he fought Madara. The Back-Then-Madara would already have been dead when he took Naruto's Futon: Rasen-Shuriken at point blank, and only his Rinnegan he supposedly developed after his fight with Hashirama saved him. And Edos seem to have infinite chakra-levels, because there is no way Madara would have been able to fight for so long on that level without any chakra-concerns.

its already been stated that madara had the strongest chakra in the Uchiha clan. also when the control center was informed of that meteor jutsu which cleaned the map, they had no doubt that it was one of madara's jutsu. he probably has huge amounts of chakra reserve, even more evident from the fact that madara was considered to be hashirama's equal

One other thing that puzzle's me is Hashirama's strategy against Madara. He had to dodge Madara's eyes in order to not being caught in a Genjutsu (or Tsukyomi) during the entire fight. His wood-techniques surely weren't of much help against Madara's fire-techniques. Yet we can assume Hashirama also had some decent water-jutsus. And above all: What power did he have to fight the complete Susano'o? As far as we know, there is no summon that comes close to susano'o's strength. My theory is that Hashirama had a certain control over Kurama and not just the ability to suppress it. Kurama is the only being I can think of that could have protected him against Madara. And we actually don't know very much about the entire power of Yamato's "Hokage-Style Sixty-Year-Old Technique — Kakuan Entering Society with Bliss-Bringing Hands". Yamato used it to suppress Naruto in Four-Tails-Mode, but maybe there is more to it. That would mean that it wasn't Hashirama's own power, but his control over Kurama that saved the day. It would really like my theory to be correct, because that would mean that strategy is still more important than power. I really hope that they will one day show the legendary fight.

whether madara had the complete susa-no-o, as we have seen it the last 2 chapters, when he fought with the 1st is debatable, its not really clearly stated as such, and he did get the rennigan after his fight, so lets wait for further explanation.
it has been shown that a susanoo, that itachi and sasuke uses, can be countered by danzo, gaara, and raikage. if madara had the same, it would not have been impossible to hashirama to fight madara evenly.
regarding madara's eye-jutsu's, and genjutsus, madara's not really shown as a genjutsu expert, atleast not in the same light as itachi and shisui, he may have a MS genjutsu similar to sasuke, but that can be overcome or doesn't really have the same effect.
what really puzzles me is how hashirama countered both madara, and kyuubi at the same time. there was a panel some time back showing a glimpse of their fight, madara (on kyuubi)and hashirama. but then again, it was told that madara tried to take over konoha during their fight, so it would not be a over-stretch to assume that other konoha shinobi's were involved as well. it was mentioned that the 1st wife, mito, became the kyuubi's jinchuriki, it would be logical to assume that happening during the course of this battle.
i would really like to see this fight. i really do think that the real madara will get his time, and his flashback, which should also include this fight

[Rlinfamous]

I don't know how Hashirama tackled this Susano'o, other than buying time until it faded (considering Madara must spend a huge amount of chakra vto maintain it, and Susano'o is naturally a difficult technique to maintain). In their battle, Madara had neither the Rinnegan, nor Hashirama's power, nor Edo Fortitude, so he couldn't fight for nearly as long. I'm guessing he also invested a lot of chakra into controlling the Kyuubi, which ended up being turned against him, so that probably turned the fight around.

I wonder if trees/Mokuton could do anything to that level of Susano'o. I always thought Hashirama's waves of forest could defeat a regular Susano'o, or at least keep it at bay... but this mountain-slicing version is just insane. Maybe he used some sealing technique.

[Kenny Bones]

I'm guessing he didn't have that kind of stamina that he's got now, when he's an edo as well as being buffed with Hashirama cells. He probably could use Susanoo at that same scale back then. But that would be strategically stupid of him to fatigue himself out that quick.

[Saiges]

Thing is ppl only think Hashirama had mokuton. He's a decendant of the younger son, meaning his body was extremely powerful. I'm suspecting he(senju clan as a whole) had a form of sage mode(AKA what made them equal fighters with Uchiha):

- Sage mode enhances all senses, no genjutsu affection.
- elevates physical power to a whole new lvl, sharingan may read the movement but you can't escape it.
- Jutsu power up (like sage art giant rasengan) the elites in the clan with powerfull jutsu would even stand against a Susano.

Keep in mind Shodai was the ONLY mokuton user, how else would his clan members fight equally with uchiha?


My bets are 90% on a form of Sage mode, the most powerful one of all.

[Lakritze]

Thing is ppl only think Hashirama had mokuton. He's a decendant of the younger son, meaning his body was extremely powerful. I'm suspecting he(senju clan as a whole) had a form of sage mode(AKA what made them equal fighters with Uchiha):

- Sage mode enhances all senses, no genjutsu affection.
- elevates physical power to a whole new lvl, sharingan may read the movement but you can't escape it.
- Jutsu power up (like sage art giant rasengan) the elites in the clan with powerfull jutsu would even stand against a Susano.

Keep in mind Shodai was the ONLY mokuton user, how else would his clan members fight equally with uchiha?


My bets are 90% on a form of Sage mode, the most powerful one of all.

Just to get this straight: You think that - in comparison to the complete susan'o - little-ant-Hashirama was able to stand his ground against this giant simply because he was strong? Theoretically, this may have been so. However, on the practical level, I don't believe this was the case. I am sure he had something as big as Madara's susano'o. To me, it's not just a matter of strength.

[paulbee]

Just to get this straight: You think that - in comparison to the complete susan'o - little-ant-Hashirama was able to stand his ground against this giant simply because he was strong? Theoretically, this may have been so. However, on the practical level, I don't believe this was the case. I am sure he had something as big as Madara's susano'o. To me, it's not just a matter of strength.

I am also inclined that Hashirama had some Techniques that enabled him to counter Ultimate Susanoo, and if I were to guess I'd say:

* Mega Mokuton....Red Wood trees are at least as big as the Ultimate Susanoo.
* River of trees....Unless the Susanoo can fly or levitate, Hashirama'sswarming flood of trees could tie up its legs and imobilize it, before pulling it to the ground. The sleep inducing pollen would do the rest.
* Earth Release....Similar to Akatsuchi's Golem, Hashirama could produce a Giant sized golem to fight the Suzanoo, Giant vs Giant.

[sdw_WindStyle]

Its easy to believe how Hashirama defeated Madara when Madara specifically said the only camparable power to susanoo complete giant is a bijuu. Hashirama wrestled the kyuubi from Madara and he could have still had the other bijuu as well depending on when he distributed them to the other five nations.

[Saiges]

Just to get this straight: You think that - in comparison to the complete susan'o - little-ant-Hashirama was able to stand his ground against this giant simply because he was strong? Theoretically, this may have been so. However, on the practical level, I don't believe this was the case. I am sure he had something as big as Madara's susano'o. To me, it's not just a matter of strength.

Well this little-ant-named-Naruto threw a Giant Rhino in the sky like it was nothing.
I'm not saying Hashirama has a chance against full powered Susano'o in "base mode" in fact, no way in hell is he going to beat it.

We've seen the flower tree world from Hashirama, an Ant creating an ocean of trees. I'm saying that there is another power to him/senju...my theory is a type of sage mode, which - depending on how strong you are ofc, puts you on equal lvl with MS/EMS/+.

[Lakritze]

Well this little-ant-named-Naruto threw a Giant Rhino in the sky like it was nothing.
I'm not saying Hashirama has a chance against full powered Susano'o in "base mode" in fact, no way in hell is he going to beat it.

We've seen the flower tree world from Hashirama, an Ant creating an ocean of trees. I'm saying that there is another power to him/senju...my theory is a type of sage mode, which - depending on how strong you are ofc, puts you on equal lvl with MS/EMS/+.

***
Tsunade: How the hell could my grandfather fight something like this?
Madara: Well, to be honest, you saw the technique earlier. He put the strongest power in the arsenal of the entire Uchiha-Clan asleep with sleeping-pheromons. *g*
***

I still don't buy it. Madara clearly said that Hashirama had something at his disposal that could level the playing field and the surroundings. So it wasn't a simple "trick" like a clever jutsu. And as strong as Sage-Mode or Naruto in Kurama-chakra-mode may be, I am sure it was something as big as susano'o that Hashirama used to stop this giant. And the only weapon I can think of is another biju, although - Windstyle may be right - not necessarily Kurama.

[Lakritze]

Besides: Does anyone have a good explanation why the armies were still struggling to seal Kimimaro and Chio? Two years ago, even Rock Lee was able to fight Kimimaro, although Lee had just the hospital. And Kimimaro has no cursed seal he can use to get a boost as he did back then. And Chio was so terrifying because of her impressingly powerful puppets - puppets she doesn't have anymore. She is a mere puppet-user, hardly better than Sasori.

It may not be essential for the progress of the storyline, but I find it surprising.