Naruto 585 Discussion / 586 Predictions

[artifice]

Not really. You see, the chakra circulating in the eyes of the Uchiha clan members, are already peculiar. You could say that it constantly disrupts the flow of chakra (within the eyes) to avoid being immobilized by visual genjutsu (you know from eyes, finger points, showcasing your teeth can even work ).

It's possible that the sharingan is capable of seeing bits of chakra flowing together with sound waves, but since it affects a sense of sound perception, it can't be blocked through their eyes, since their eyes are only associated with the visual sense.

What are you basing that off of though, it is a possible theory but nothing in the manga or databooks mentions that. My point is that we haven't been given a solid explanation. Based on what we have been told there has yet to be any distinction between countering genjutsu activated through sound and genjutsu activated by visual ques. From what I can tell in the databooks sound is merely a method of carrying the users chakra to the target, so it has a wider range and doesn't require the user to know the location of the target but nothing is said about its effects being different or it requiring a different method to escape. There may be a difference but my complaint is that in this context it doesn't make much sense. Also, if your theory is correct that still doesn't account for why Shikamaru was able to use ninjutsu while under a very similar genjutsu but Itachi and Sasuke apparently could not. Naruto does a better job of explaining its techniques than most series do but there are a number of cases were there are major inconsistencies, this being one of them.

Like I said, it is possible that Itachi and Sasuke simply needed a very quick easy way to free themselves and so they used the most available option. It is possible that they could have bitten tougues, broken fingers, stopped their chakra flow, etc. Yet those methods would not have been as quick so they just did what was quickest and caused the least amount of damage to themselves. Yet, my problem still remains, we haven't been given any sort of explanation for different types of genjutsu requiring different counters. It makes it confusing.

[artifice]

You seem to think that they're completely immune to genjutsu because of the Sharingan, but that simply isn't the case. We were showed that firsthand when Sasuke and Itachi fought.

That's true but they were always able to see through it, they had to keep layering the genjutsu, it was illusions inside illusions, ultimately they both kept seeing through the other's genjutsu until they had to switch to a different method of combat. Ultimately, neither was able to defeat or even confine the other with genjutsu. Itachi changed things when he used Tsukiyomi, which was on another level but Sasuke broke it making further use of genjutsu pointless (according to Zetsu).

So while genjutsu may have some effect, ultimately it almost always seems to be counterable. Its a bit like Killerbee being distracted by Itachi's illusion enough that he wasn't able to catch him with his tentacle but when he realized that he was in an illusion he was quickly freed by the eight-tails. The same for Danzo against Sasuke, he was momentarily caught by Sasuke's illusion of Itachi but he was quickly able to break free of it. The same thing should have been possible in this case. I understand the appeal of getting Itachi and Sasuke to work together to free themselves but it doesn't really line up with what we have already seen.

The key thing here is the Genjutsu disrupts the flow of chakra. It doesn't completely cut it off and make it completely unusable. For a relatively low-cost technique like Shikamaru's shadow manipulation, I suspect it's a whole lot simpler to execute that than pulling off a chakra-heavy technique like Susanoo, all while having your chakra in an unstable state. And that's why I think Susanoo was quick to dissipate when they were caught. I assume it would be pretty difficult to mold a giant chakra War God if your chakra is unstable.

Shadow manipulation was high cost for a ninja of Shikamaru's level at that time. We can't just scale one side, its true Susanoo requires much more power but Sasuke and Itachi are both at a far higher level than Shikarmaru was and they seem to use Susanoo with as little effort as he used shadow bind. Although, you make a good point that the chakra disruption might have limited the use of the technique do to the complexity of it. Yet, that doesn't account for why Sasuke was able to break free of Tsukiyomi with a regular sharingan yet he cannot break out of this technique with the Eternal Mangekyou.

And Kabuto's upping his genjutsu game (and everything else) with Sage Mode. Methinks it balances out quite well when you remember that tiny detail, don't you think? After all, Sage Mode does greatly enhance every aspect of a ninja's abilities.

No, because like I already said, Sasuke was able to break the supposed strongest genjutsu (Tsukiyomi) without even the mangekyou sharingan now he has the Eternal Mangekyou. Even if Kabuto's genjutsu is worlds above Orochimaru and Tayuya's (which by all rights it should be) with the power of the Eternal Mangekyou Sasuke should still be able to counter it no problem. It still makes no sense that Sasuke could break what is if not the strongest, one of the strongest genjutsu, with just a regular sharingan and the cursed seal yet cannot overcome this technique. The only logical explanation would be if sound based genjutsu was fundamentally different than other types that we have seen but like I said, there is nothing said about that in the manga.

[master.roly]

That's true but they were always able to see through it, they had to keep layering the genjutsu, it was illusions inside illusions, ultimately they both kept seeing through the other's genjutsu until they had to switch to a different method of combat. Ultimately, neither was able to defeat or even confine the other with genjutsu. Itachi changed things when he used Tsukiyomi, which was on another level but Sasuke broke it making further use of genjutsu pointless (according to Zetsu).

So while genjutsu may have some effect, ultimately it almost always seems to be counterable. Its a bit like Killerbee being distracted by Itachi's illusion enough that he wasn't able to catch him with his tentacle but when he realized that he was in an illusion he was quickly freed by the eight-tails. The same for Danzo against Sasuke, he was momentarily caught by Sasuke's illusion of Itachi but he was quickly able to break free of it. The same thing should have been possible in this case. I understand the appeal of getting Itachi and Sasuke to work together to free themselves but it doesn't really line up with what we have already seen.



Shadow manipulation was high cost for a ninja of Shikamaru's level at that time. We can't just scale one side, its true Susanoo requires much more power but Sasuke and Itachi are both at a far higher level than Shikarmaru was and they seem to use Susanoo with as little effort as he used shadow bind. Although, you make a good point that the chakra disruption might have limited the use of the technique do to the complexity of it. Yet, that doesn't account for why Sasuke was able to break free of Tsukiyomi with a regular sharingan yet he cannot break out of this technique with the Eternal Mangekyou.



No, because like I already said, Sasuke was able to break the supposed strongest genjutsu (Tsukiyomi) without even the mangekyou sharingan now he has the Eternal Mangekyou. Even if Kabuto's genjutsu is worlds above Orochimaru and Tayuya's (which by all rights it should be) with the power of the Eternal Mangekyou Sasuke should still be able to counter it no problem. It still makes no sense that Sasuke could break what is if not the strongest, one of the strongest genjutsu, with just a regular sharingan and the cursed seal yet cannot overcome this technique. The only logical explanation would be if sound based genjutsu was fundamentally different than other types that we have seen but like I said, there is nothing said about that in the manga.

My thoughts exactly.

[paulbee]

Artifice got it right. In the midst of battle with no time to spare, mutual counter genjutsu was the fastest and most effective option.

[Zero]

What are you basing that off of though, it is a possible theory but nothing in the manga or databooks mentions that.

Like I said, it is possible that Itachi and Sasuke simply needed a very quick easy way to free themselves and so they used the most available option. It is possible that they could have bitten tougues, broken fingers, stopped their chakra flow, etc. Yet those methods would not have been as quick so they just did what was quickest and caused the least amount of damage to themselves. Yet, my problem still remains, we haven't been given any sort of explanation for different types of genjutsu requiring different counters. It makes it confusing.

Simple, the fact that Sharingan is a doujutsu and thus a thing that relies on chakra. In normal eyes, chakra doesn't go as wildly as in the doujutsus. Kakashi's case is a great example on how differently the red eye works from a normal eye.

Genjutsu is based on controlling/immobilizing your opponent with Illusions, that affects one (or more) of their 5 senses. If you reread the current chapter, you can see that Sasuke and Itachi are able to overcome the control over their sense of sight quite easily, since they are able to see what Kabuto does in real world, yet they still aren't so easily able to overcome the control over their other senses (and have to use another mean to counter it, by sending their own chakra to each other to disrupt the flow).

Yet, that doesn't account for why Sasuke was able to break free of Tsukiyomi with a regular sharingan yet he cannot break out of this technique with the Eternal Mangekyou.

No, because like I already said, Sasuke was able to break the supposed strongest genjutsu (Tsukiyomi) without even the mangekyou sharingan now he has the Eternal Mangekyou. Even if Kabuto's genjutsu is worlds above Orochimaru and Tayuya's (which by all rights it should be) with the power of the Eternal Mangekyou Sasuke should still be able to counter it no problem. It still makes no sense that Sasuke could break what is if not the strongest, one of the strongest genjutsu, with just a regular sharingan and the cursed seal yet cannot overcome this technique. The only logical explanation would be if sound based genjutsu was fundamentally different than other types that we have seen but like I said, there is nothing said about that in the manga.

Even if a CS level 1 could be called a watered down version of Snake Sage Mode, it's not so easy for level 2. The boost the kekkei genkai gains (in this case the sharingan) form CS2 is at least 1,5x of the normal capabilities. Not to mention, a new source of energy is inserted in Sasuke (the natural energy) from the outside world, which even more disrupts the chakra flow and makes the chakra pool even bigger.

[artifice]

Simple, the fact that Sharingan is a doujutsu and thus a thing that relies on chakra. In normal eyes, chakra doesn't go as wildly as in the doujutsus. Kakashi's case is a great example on how differently the red eye works from a normal eye.

Genjutsu is based on controlling/immobilizing your opponent with Illusions, that affects one (or more) of their 5 senses. If you reread the current chapter, you can see that Sasuke and Itachi are able to overcome the control over their sense of sight quite easily, since they are able to see what Kabuto does in real world, yet they still aren't so easily able to overcome the control over their other senses (and have to use another mean to counter it, by sending their own chakra to each other to disrupt the flow).

But eye based gengutsu doesn't only effect the eyes. When Itachi uses Tsukiyomi for example, it effects all of the senses (including the victims perception of time and space). Based on the explanation we have been given it isn't a case of just seeing past the visual aspect of the illusion. Like I said, the only difference we have been given for sound based genjutsu as opposed to other types is that it is sound that carries the chakra and intializes the illusion. In the case of using the sharingan they use their eyes but it isn't just a visual illusion. For sound, it is sound that carries the chakra but it isn't just affecting that one sense. Both eye based and sound based genjutsu can effect multiple senses so I still have to disagree with the idea that they are merely able to see through the visual part of the illusion.

Even if a CS level 1 could be called a watered down version of Snake Sage Mode, it's not so easy for level 2. The boost the kekkei genkai gains (in this case the sharingan) form CS2 is at least 1,5x of the normal capabilities. Not to mention, a new source of energy is inserted in Sasuke (the natural energy) from the outside world, which even more disrupts the chakra flow and makes the chakra pool even bigger.

Are you suggesting that the CS level 2 paired with the sharingan is more effective at breaking genjutsu than the Mangekyou and Eternal Mangekyou?

[Harbinger_Of_Kaos]

For all we know Kabuto is already trapped within it and doesn't know it.

[Zero]

But eye based gengutsu doesn't only effect the eyes. When Itachi uses Tsukiyomi for example, it effects all of the senses (including the victims perception of time and space). Based on the explanation we have been given it isn't a case of just seeing past the visual aspect of the illusion. Like I said, the only difference we have been given for sound based genjutsu as opposed to other types is that it is sound that carries the chakra and intializes the illusion. In the case of using the sharingan they use their eyes but it isn't just a visual illusion. For sound, it is sound that carries the chakra but it isn't just affecting that one sense. Both eye based and sound based genjutsu can effect multiple senses so I still have to disagree with the idea that they are merely able to see through the visual part of the illusion.

Rather than breaking out of genjutsu, I think that sharingan blocks it. The thing is, to successfully cast genjutsu, the user has to first insert his chakra in to his target, through one of the target's senses. You could say that the illusion spreads from one sense to others. But if at that point, the caster's chakra is stopped by something else (like the vividly flowing chakra within the Sharingan), it's possible that the user won't be able to proceed to other senses and his jutsu will fail or be broken.

Are you suggesting that the CS level 2 paired with the sharingan is more effective at breaking genjutsu than the Mangekyou and Eternal Mangekyou?

The CS2 in itself could be a great way to break out of genjutsu, since it completely changes the quality and quantity of the user's chakra, but in Sasuke's case, it even boosts his Sharingan power, which posses counter genjutsu capabilities. Not to mention that CS2 is closely related to Sage Mode, which enhances the user's perception.

[Ahmad Jamal]

hey i don't know whether it has yet been discussed or explained in previous few pages coz i couldn't visit here after first 5 pages...

The point that has me confused is that Itachi seemed to have released Izanami twice or atleast that much i know... few chapters back before the flashbacks started Itachi said to Sasuke "stay close to me Izanami is already released" and then now in this chapter he again said that "I am also preparing something but it will take some time" and then after the mutual genjutsu he said i will now release it".... and his eye was gone too..!!

can anyone put light on it..? as far as i am concerned i think perhaps it was like starting of Izanami and then Sealing the Izanami... explaining it would be like that few chapters back Itachi started to write or formulate Kabuto's destiny and perhaps in last chapter when he released it he had only just finished it and thus his eye went out...!!

Now if anything like this would happen perhaps this would mean that what happened after the release of Izanami would not count, meaning Kabuto's successful attack would nullify? I know my theory could be totally wrong too i am not well learned in Naruto verse i just talk through my intuitions... but i am sure couple of people here would have far better explanation to it...!!


On the current topic of mutual genjutsu usage to counter genjutsu i want to ask.... Is there any tiny bit of chance that Itachi could cast his Tsukiyomi on both Sasuke and Oro's snake eyes and indirectly on Kabuto through the reflection in Sasuke's eyes ? it might seem outrageous but i don't know why i can't seem to shake it off that Itachi used Tsukiyomi on Sasuke and not just a simple genjutsu at that time.... i mean Itachi is supposed to be calm and calculating in the face of mortal peril..!!

[lazybum]

if i am not mistaken, itachi once said that, using amaterasu, and tsukiyomi one after the other, required huge amount of chakra (or was it the damage to his body, still not clear) (http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v17/c148/7.html)
also, i don't think being an edo tensei summon, itachi has unlimited chakra, as pointed out by kabuto (http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v59/c558/6.html)
so using tsukiyomi to break through a sound-based genjutsu, after using amaterasu, and susano'o, seems reckless on itachi's part, who is known to see through a fight, and select the fastest course of action