Naruto 585 Discussion / 586 Predictions

[Kenny Bones]

What if this actually is the end of edo Itachi? He used tsukyomi on Sasuke. Some wondered why, and I thought it was just a random genjutsu Itachi used, that it didn't really matter which genjutsu he used to break free.

But, Itachi probably already spoke to Sasuke during that Tsukyomi. It lasts for three days, long enough for them to have a proper goodbye.

[Afro Thunda]

What if this actually is the end of edo Itachi? He used tsukyomi on Sasuke. Some wondered why, and I thought it was just a random genjutsu Itachi used, that it didn't really matter which genjutsu he used to break free.

But, Itachi probably already spoke to Sasuke during that Tsukyomi. It lasts for three days, long enough for them to have a proper goodbye.

I doubt that was the case. That or Sasuke is a great actor since if Itachi really did say his goodbyes during Tsukuyomi, Sasuke isn't showing any emotion with regard to that. Kinda unlikely considering how emotional he's been since being with Itachi. Also, Itachi can make Tsukuyomi last as long as he wants. He distorts time with it, after all. He's that badass with it.

[Kenny Bones]

If that's the case, then Itachi must have just used it as a random genjutsu. That it didn't really matter which one he used.

[artifice]

It was not easy considering they had to use Mangekyo level Genjutsu to break out of it. The rules for breaking out of Genjutsu have already been explained to us, they are just lucky their where two of them on the battlefield. Having a partner to break out of Genjutsu is pretty basic but what was advanced was using their dojutsu on each other.

On that note it should be explained that of the 5 forms of Genjutsu being Sight, Taste, Touch, Smell & Sound that sound based Genjutsu is the most difficult to counter because of its massive area of effect that does not require the caster to know the location of the target.

The Sharingan apparently can counter visual based Genjutsu very easily since that is the basis of its ability but other forms are more difficult. Frog Sage Genjutsu was used to bind Pain and even he was unable to counter it with his Rinnegan and all its abilities.

Then you have to take in to account that Kabuto is in Sage mode which raises the power of his Genjutsu hence why it required Mangekyo level counter Genjutsu to break out.

While we do have some basic knowledge of how genjutsu is cancelled, it does seem to be something that Kishimoto hasn't really defined well. For example, Shikamaru was able to break himself out of the same technique by using his own shadow manipulation to break his own finger. It seems to me that Kishimoto always seems to find a convient way to get people out of genjutsu when necessary but he has only really loosely defined how it can be done. In this case, the point that Sasuke and Itachi were perfectly capable of performing their own genjutsu on each other but they could not use Susanoo seems convenient rather than logical based on what we have already seen.

http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/ch...8/page018.html

It could be that using genjutsu was simply the easiest option at the time but that is not really made clear one way or another. If Shikamaru was able to use his shadow bind to counter genjutsu at his level there should have been multiple outs for Itachi and Sasuke who are not only some of the highest level genjutsu users but also have a large variety of abilities to draw upon. Also, from what I can tell, neither the series nor the databooks have defined the difference between visual genjutsu and sound based genjutsu, only that they activate under different circumstances as one is generated by sound while the other relies upon visual ques. To the best of my knowledge though, no difference has been defined when it comes to breaking free from them. If memory serves it was stated that the sharingan has the power to see through genjutsu but it doesn't make any mention of different types causing different problems.

[Zero]

^ Hmmmmmmm...

Genjutsu works by controlling your opponent's 5 senses, through your own chakra that was inserted in to the enemy by the means of one or more senses (for example, through vision, touch, sound, smell, or taste).

To cancel genjutsu, you (or someone else) have to disrupt the chakra of the enemy, that is mixed together with yours, or to send a strong shock to one of the senses (which probably disrupts chakra as well).

Itachi and Sasuke just added another (sense controlling) chakra to the mix, that disrupted the previous one.


BTW. It would have been awesome if Senjutsu existed in our world. Just imagine how much it would have helped all those blind people. If Kabuto can precisely aim without seeing, by feeling the world through natural energy, then why not everyone else ?

[Afro Thunda]

Spoiler!

While we do have some basic knowledge of how genjutsu is cancelled, it does seem to be something that Kishimoto hasn't really defined well. For example, Shikamaru was able to break himself out of the same technique by using his own shadow manipulation to break his own finger. It seems to me that Kishimoto always seems to find a convient way to get people out of genjutsu when necessary but he has only really loosely defined how it can be done. In this case, the point that Sasuke and Itachi were perfectly capable of performing their own genjutsu on each other but they could not use Susanoo seems convenient rather than logical based on what we have already seen.

http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/ch...8/page018.html

It could be that using genjutsu was simply the easiest option at the time but that is not really made clear one way or another. If Shikamaru was able to use his shadow bind to counter genjutsu at his level there should have been multiple outs for Itachi and Sasuke who are not only some of the highest level genjutsu users but also have a large variety of abilities to draw upon. Also, from what I can tell, neither the series nor the databooks have defined the difference between visual genjutsu and sound based genjutsu, only that they activate under different circumstances as one is generated by sound while the other relies upon visual ques. To the best of my knowledge though, no difference has been defined when it comes to breaking free from them. If memory serves it was stated that the sharingan has the power to see through genjutsu but it doesn't make any mention of different types causing different problems.

Pain was shown to be a way to escape a genjutsu even before Shikamaru. Kurenai used pain from a self-inflicted wound (bit her lip, which I'm sure wouldn't have cut it if it were a higher level genjutsu) to get out of her own genjutsu when Itachi reversed it back on her. So it's not like that hasn't always been an option, but when your extremities are paralyzed, it sure makes it hard to hurt yourself in order to break free.

In any case, taking Susanoo as an amalgamation of pure chakra and genjutsu, a type of technique that disrupts chakra flow, it would stand to reason that the moment Itachi and Sasuke were caught in Kabuto's genjutsu, the disruption in chakra flow caused their Susanoo techniques to dissipate. Now, I'm sure that using a genjutsu under the same circumstances, which is practically automatic for a Sharingan user, is whole lot more easier.

And the only difference between a visual genjutsu and sound-based genjutsu is just that. The medium used to cast it. One works through the eyes, one works through the ears. Other than that, there's no difference.

[master.roly]

And the only difference between a visual genjutsu and sound-based genjutsu is just that. The medium used to cast it. One works through the eyes, one works through the ears. Other than that, there's no difference.

If there is no difference, shouldnt itachi and sasuke have been able to see through it with their sharingan?

[artifice]

Pain was shown to be a way to escape a genjutsu even before Shikamaru. Kurenai used pain from a self-inflicted wound (bit her lip, which I'm sure wouldn't have cut it if it were a higher level genjutsu) to get out of her own genjutsu when Itachi reversed it back on her. So it's not like that hasn't always been an option, but when your extremities are paralyzed, it sure makes it hard to hurt yourself in order to break free.

Yes, I know but in the case of Shikamaru he performed ninjutsu to inflict that pain while restrained by gemjutsu.

In any case, taking Susanoo as an amalgamation of pure chakra and genjutsu, a type of technique that disrupts chakra flow, it would stand to reason that the moment Itachi and Sasuke were caught in Kabuto's genjutsu, the disruption in chakra flow caused their Susanoo techniques to dissipate. Now, I'm sure that using a genjutsu under the same circumstances, which is practically automatic for a Sharingan user, is whole lot more easier.

As I mentioned, if Shikamaru was able to perform his shadow bind while under the genjutsu I don't really see why it would be a problem for Itachi and Sasuke to use Susanoo, especially since they were still able to use genjutsu. If Shikamaru could still use ninjutsu and he broke out of it with it, then even if Susanoo is a cross between genjutsu and ninjutsu it should have been a possibility. As I said perhaps they just used genjutsu because it was the simplest option but that's hard to say.

And the only difference between a visual genjutsu and sound-based genjutsu is just that. The medium used to cast it. One works through the eyes, one works through the ears. Other than that, there's no difference.

That's what I would have thought but in that case it seems odd that Itachi and Sasuke could not counter the genjutsu with their mangekyou when both Itachi and Sasuke were easily able to counter Orochimaru's genjutsu with just the regular sharingan. I can understand that Orochimaru's genjutsu was weaker than Kabuto's but come on, Sasuke's eyes are on a completely different level from before and Itachi has always been able to counter high level genjutsu no problem. Tsukiyomi has been described as the ultimate genjutsu but Sasuke was able to break out of it even before he achieved the Mangekyou sharingan so it just seems. It seems a like convient writing to have Sasuke and Itachi need to rely on each other to break out of this genjutsu when they have both demonstrated the ability to break extremely high level genjutsu in the past with relative ease.

[Zero]

That's what I would have thought but in that case it seems odd that Itachi and Sasuke could not counter the genjutsu with their mangekyou when both Itachi and Sasuke were easily able to counter Orochimaru's genjutsu with just the regular sharingan. I can understand that Orochimaru's genjutsu was weaker than Kabuto's but come on, Sasuke's eyes are on a completely different level from before and Itachi has always been able to counter high level genjutsu no problem. Tsukiyomi has been described as the ultimate genjutsu but Sasuke was able to break out of it even before he achieved the Mangekyou sharingan so it just seems. It seems a like convient writing to have Sasuke and Itachi need to rely on each other to break out of this genjutsu when they have both demonstrated the ability to break extremely high level genjutsu in the past with relative ease.

Not really. You see, the chakra circulating in the eyes of the Uchiha clan members, are already peculiar. You could say that it constantly disrupts the flow of chakra (within the eyes) to avoid being immobilized by visual genjutsu (you know from eyes, finger points, showcasing your teeth can even work ).

It's possible that the sharingan is capable of seeing bits of chakra flowing together with sound waves, but since it affects a sense of sound perception, it can't be blocked through their eyes, since their eyes are only associated with the visual sense.

[Afro Thunda]

If there is no difference, shouldnt itachi and sasuke have been able to see through it with their sharingan?

You seem to think that they're completely immune to genjutsu because of the Sharingan, but that simply isn't the case. We were showed that firsthand when Sasuke and Itachi fought.

Yes, I know but in the case of Shikamaru he performed ninjutsu to inflict that pain while restrained by gemjutsu.

As I mentioned, if Shikamaru was able to perform his shadow bind while under the genjutsu I don't really see why it would be a problem for Itachi and Sasuke to use Susanoo, especially since they were still able to use genjutsu. If Shikamaru could still use ninjutsu and he broke out of it with it, then even if Susanoo is a cross between genjutsu and ninjutsu it should have been a possibility. As I said perhaps they just used genjutsu because it was the simplest option but that's hard to say.

The key thing here is the Genjutsu disrupts the flow of chakra. It doesn't completely cut it off and make it completely unusable. For a relatively low-cost technique like Shikamaru's shadow manipulation, I suspect it's a whole lot simpler to execute that than pulling off a chakra-heavy technique like Susanoo, all while having your chakra in an unstable state. And that's why I think Susanoo was quick to dissipate when they were caught. I assume it would be pretty difficult to mold a giant chakra War God if your chakra is unstable.

That's what I would have thought but in that case it seems odd that Itachi and Sasuke could not counter the genjutsu with their mangekyou when both Itachi and Sasuke were easily able to counter Orochimaru's genjutsu with just the regular sharingan. I can understand that Orochimaru's genjutsu was weaker than Kabuto's but come on, Sasuke's eyes are on a completely different level from before and Itachi has always been able to counter high level genjutsu no problem. Tsukiyomi has been described as the ultimate genjutsu but Sasuke was able to break out of it even before he achieved the Mangekyou sharingan so it just seems. It seems a like convient writing to have Sasuke and Itachi need to rely on each other to break out of this genjutsu when they have both demonstrated the ability to break extremely high level genjutsu in the past with relative ease.

And Kabuto's upping his genjutsu game (and everything else) with Sage Mode. Methinks it balances out quite well when you remember that tiny detail, don't you think? After all, Sage Mode does greatly enhance every aspect of a ninja's abilities.