Kamui is a space/time jutsu, and comes from the Mangekyou. Kakashi may be using it, but he's hardly a prime example of Senju physical energies, as his are very low, by anyone's standards. There ARE some prime examples of Senju who used space/time justu, as well. It's not exclusive to either lineage. However, I think that Madara's phasing ability is tied to his Sharingan, and not a product of the physical energies he stole from Hashirama.
Amaterasu is also arguably a space/time jutsu. It seems to summon it's flames to the target rather than projecting them.
I don't think Senju space/time jutsu are connected to their superior physical energies, but merely the skill of their shinobi. Yondaime wasn't a high-chakra type (at least compared to Naruto/Jiraiya), and his space/time jutsu were based on his skill in jutsu and his lightning-fast reflexes. We don't know what Tobirama's space/time jutsu were. He did devise Edo Tensei, but that's not really based on his chakra levels, either. I really don't think space/time jutsu should be considered a trademark of the Senju clan, but simply something a few of their top-level shinobi excelled in. They're a very diverse clan.
So many words used tho, I could've just ended the whole thing for Rlinfamous favor by just using 2 pics and some math, and very little words. lol
Powers of the Rinnegan (this is a top secret provided to you courtesy of wikileaks)
Powers of the equilibrium divided
You have Rikudou Sennin representing the whole
You have Naruto, Nagato, Hashirama, younger son on the left side, representing the yang, the jedis of the light side of the force. You have Sasuke, Itachi, Madara, elder son on the right side representing the yin, the darths of the dark side of the force.
btw senju and uzumaki are from the same lineage derived from the younger brother.
one half from the left + one half from the right equals the whole Rikudou, (well roughly equal to, but technically not cause rikudou's powers include both the powers of both lineages and in addition the awakening of the rinnegan, so while both clans powers makes a rikudou, the rinnegan still needs to be awakened)
So younger son + elder son = Rikudou
So Hashirama + Madara = Rikudou (this is the Madara with EMS I'm talking about)
So Nagato + Itachi = Rikudou (this is the Nagato without a rinnegan awakening, spriitual energies I"m talking about, had he just been an uzumaki like Naruto)
So Naruto + Sasuke = Rikudou
What that means is Yang + yin = Rikudou, Life + Death = Rikudou, physical + spiritual = Rikudou
Senjus/Uzumakis are the life, yang, physical powers of Rikudou, uchihas are the yin, death, spiritual powers of Rikudou.
Basically you add both the halves they equal a Sage of Six Paths (Rikudou)
Madara added the senju physical energies to himself, so he became the Niidaime Rikudou
Nagato was given the uchiha spiritual energies and/or rikudou's soul reincarnation so he became the Sandaime Rikudou
Do both the Niidaime and Sandaime Rikudou equal the real Rikudou Sennin in strength, not even close, but they both have the same powers or are going to now in Madara's case.
If you still don't understand these basic principles, then I've no more patience for ya. Oh and Count the number of times I've used the word Rikudou
Oh btw, Naruto's going to become the Yondaime Rikudou Sennin, Dattebayo.
Last edited by Rokudaime Sennin ™; 12-03-2010 at 10:47 PM.
A bridge towards peace; the will of fire still endures!
Rokudaime Hokage, Rokudaime Rikudou Sennin Uzumaki Naruto
So I'm going to ramble a bit, in light of your recent math.
Here's where I've found you'll lose people:
You say Senju + Uchiha = Rikudou
Which is something like 50% + 50% = 100%
This is all well and good.
However, people will then view the Rinnegan as 50% of the Rikudou (the other 50% being physical energies), as well.
And since the Uchiha are also equal to 50% of the Rikudou, and possess the Sharingan,
Sharingan = Rinnegan
This is NOT correct.
The Rinnegan is the combination of physical and spiritual energies. By removing either, one cannot hope to have a complete Rinnegan. Therefore, for all intents and purposes,
Physical + Spiritual = Rinnegan
Senju + Uchiha = Rikudou
Senju + Uchiha = Rinnegan
The Rinnegan is equal to 100% of the Rikudou's power; they are one and the same. Even the Elder Brother, who possessed the FULL spiritual energies of the Rikudou (and the most "Rinnegan-like" eye patterns to show this) was only equal to 50% of the Rikudou's power.
You may ask, "What about Danzou? He possessed Sharingan and Mokuton, Spiritual and Physical, yet he did not awaken a Rinnegan." And the same could be asked about Madara. Excellent questions!
The answer is that the bloodlines thinned. The fact is that Danzou, and even Madara, were playing with diluted or secondhand versions of the real deal. Danzou was not a powerful Senju, nor an Uchiha. His eyes taxed him so heavily that he needed Hashirama's powers merely to make up for it. He couldn't take his Spiritual energies to the next level to upgrade his Sharingan to Mangekyou or further, and his Physical energies were a failed science experiment to replicate the First Hokage's power.
Madara, a powerful Uchiha, is clearly taxed less heavily than Danzou for using Sharingan. Thus, his physical energies allow him to wield at least one Rinnegan. His experiment in implementing Hashirama's cells was more successful. He also once possessed powerful enough Spiritual energies to awaken the EMS, so he's probably one step away from becoming a true successor to the Rikudou, but he's still only able to handle the one eye, unless he's got it hidden on his forehead/in a box/up his butt.
So the important thing to get from all this is that:
It is no longer
Senju + Uchiha = Rikudou
STRONG Senju + STRONG Uchiha = Rikudou
And since the Rinnegan, being a product of BOTH the Sage's physical and spiritual energies (to have one without the other is to lose the Rinnegan) is essentially the same as the Rikudou,
STRONG Senju + STRONG Uchiha = Rinnegan
Hashirama + EMS Madara = Rikudou
Naruto + EMS Sasuke = Rikudou
Naruto + EMS Sasuke = Rinnegan
Sasuke would need to obtain Naruto's physical energies to upgrade his eyes to Rinnegan, and it would definitely be in his interests to do so, because the Rinnegan is just far, far stronger than anything an Uchiha can hope to obtain on their own.
and may I inquire as to which fool will view rinnegan as 50% of the sage? If you're referring to them seeing rinnegan as doujutsu only, then yea i can see what you mean, that's the problem most on NF had also, they view rinnegan as eye powers, when in fact the rinnegan is all encompassing. The elder son does not wield the rinnegan, but only the spiritual half of it. I guess that's where people get confused the most.
I guess I should've made it more clear, but ty for the elaboration. Yes, rinnegan = Rikudou. Rikudou means a Sage of Six Paths, those are the 6 paths of samsara that the rinnegan gives control over, making the rinnegan wielder the 7th Gedou (outer) path. A Sage of Six Paths = Rinnegan, I would've thought that every1 understood that by now. All the Mangekyou powers, all the senju mokuton/uzumaki chains/fuuinjutsu powers are the powers of a Gedou path, meaning the rinnegan wielder. They are merely the yin/yang chakra releases of the rinnegan wielder with the most powerful spiritual/physical energies. Like for example, Izanagi, and Izanami are onmyoton releases, they'll require 50-50 ratio of both yin/yang. The original Amaterasu by Rikudou would've been a yang release of 100% yang ratio. The original Mugen Tsukuyomi of Rikudou would've been a yin release of 100% yin ratio. Susanoo is another onmyoton release, requiring both eyes, as in the both the spiritual yin eye and the physical yang eye of Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu. Susanoo is an ethereal/spriitual guardian which manifests as physical bones/muscles, so it would be 50-50 also. Well the finished form, the unfinished form could have differing ratios. Mokuton and Chakra chains are yang releases as well, I would surmise mokuton to be 100% yang nature, and chakra chains to be 60-40.
In order to fully understand the powers and relationship of rinnegan/mangekyou/mokuton, one needs to have an understanding of the concepts of yin/yang and of the mythology the jutsus are based on, but I guess it won't be fully clear until that jyubi eye thing is resolved in the manga as canon, whichever way it goes. To me that is absolute proof of the Rinnegan/Rikudou using the Mugen Tsukuyomi, the strongest genjutsu.
And don't forget that Izanagi, the ultimate genjutsu/creation jutsu, has 50% genjutsu component, that is proof of the rinnegan being able to use genjutsu. And if you know of the legend of Izanagi and other shinto gods, if Rikudou was the the metaphorical representation of Izanagi, the creator god, he created Tsukuyomi, Amaterasu, Susanoo. That trio comes together, if Rikudou used Tsukuyomi, then he absolutely used Amaterasu and Susanoo but his Amaterasu would've been yellow like the sun, it became black after becoming corrupted by the elder son, and his Susanoo would've been more nobler than Itachi's Susanoo. And as to say Nagato wasn't capable of those jutsu, guess how Madara plans to recombine the beasts together into the jyubi, with an Izanagi of his own, and that Izanagi would've come from Nagato's eyes which were transplanted into Madara.
Again don't differenciate between Rikudou and the rinnegan, Rikudou = rinnegan, they're the one and the same. Madara was the Niidaime Rikudou and Nagato was the Sandaime Rikudou, however both their cases were unique in their own ways. Madara may have met the prerequisites to being the Rikudou but failed to awaken the rinnegan himself, since I believe it awakens in noble beings. That's where Nagato came in, he was able to awaken the rinnegan which Madara then stole back for himself. Now Nagato as an uzumaki was given the other half of the equation somehow, either from Madara by transplanting uchiha genes/spiritual energies, or by being Rikudou's soul reincarnation.
Last edited by Rokudaime Sennin ™; 12-04-2010 at 02:04 AM.
A bridge towards peace; the will of fire still endures!
Rokudaime Hokage, Rokudaime Rikudou Sennin Uzumaki Naruto
It came from either the fanbook 2 or artbook (the one with the bijuu art) released sometime in april. I forget which one so let's just call it the Fartbook.
And ask POW for that shit, he's the who takes care of scanlating these things. I think you can just google it, and the results will show up as Mangahelpers Fanbook 2 translations, i think POW was doing most of those. The databook 3 are on mangahelpers as well, mostly done by shounensuki. This page I got from NarutoForums, not sure where it came from, but you may want to ask around in the translations section on NF, but I would lean towards Fanbook 2. Will have proper links once I get my laptop fixed, I have em bookmarked.
Btw, I already gave you this shit before on 510 Discussion thread, somewhere on page 7-8, that's where i went back and got it from.
oh and I suggest both you and artifice read Chapter 510 again, then go read the discussion thread starting from that page, especially my giant posts/discussion with Agabomba, I already explained most of this stuff.
As far as Ameterasu being summoned instead of projected, I'd debate that point too. Remember how Itachi had a hell of a time catching Saskue with it because Saskue is pretty fast. All you have to do IMO is stay in the user's peripheral vision.
Also Yondaime had to have high chakra levels. How do you pull off Dead demon seal, FTG, 8 trigram seal, The space/time jutsu that transported the Kyuubi and his death blast, and things of that nature, not to mention all in the same fight.
However, I do agree that space/time jutsu's arent Senju or Uchiha specific. Only because we've seen/heard of both being able to use those techniques.
Beware of the Kyubii
Stev3child - The biggest pussy of them all is rokudaime sennin though. If he was a real man, he wouldn't have relied on hax god-given powers to seal the Jyubi. He would have suplexed that bitch and ripped each tail from the beast one by one with his bare hands.
2. When I said "summoned", I didn't mean it like, say, a summoning jutsu, but in terms of "the flames appear in the location that the user focuses on." As in, the flames don't shoot out of Sasuke's eyes, or mouth, or anything like that, they appear at his target location. It seems there is a slight delay ramp up period for Amaterasu, though, in which the user has to focus hard on that position, so it is possible to dodge (as evidenced by the Raikage) or block (as evidenced by Gaara).
I wouldn't really cite Sasuke avoiding Itachi's Amaterasu as an example, though... Itachi clearly never intended to land a lethal or crippling blow, but merely wanted to exhaust Sasuke's chakra. He feigned his attacks while allowing Sasuke to run around, until finally forcing Sasuke to use his replacement jutsu.
3. Yondaime might have had high enough chakra levels by most's standards, but he wasn't on par with Jiraiya/Naruto. He never learned Sage jutsu, and wasn't able to use Kagebunshins in the same way as Naruto, for that exact reason. He was a tactical/speed based fighter. There's no evidence that his space/time jutsu require a lot of chakra to pull off; I'd argue they're probably very efficient, since he's able to use them without any reserve.
Naruto inherited his high chakra levels from his mother, and I think that's awesome. I consider Minato to be cooler because he was so strong without super-hax levels of chakra OR a bloodline justu... he's stronger than almost every shinobi, and he did it purely through his own genius. Again, Yondaime certainly had solid chakra levels, but he wasn't a beast, or anything remarkable in terms of S-class ninjas. It goes without saying that most S-class ninja have high chakra (look at what Deidara, or Tsunade, or Orochimaru are able to pull off). But people like Raikage, Killerbee, Kisame, Nagato, Naruto, Jiraiya, and Hashirama are in a league of their own.