Does Izanagi & Izanami need Hasihrama DNA?

[psukkar]

There are two statements by tobi that talk about izanagi.


1) During Tobi's anaylsis of Danzo's izanagi use.

He said the tech was even made forbidden by the uchiha. This statement implies the uchiha under there own power are able to the tech.


2) Tobi talking to Konan about Izanagi.

He said there have been others that boasted a imprefect izanagi due not to being able to control hasihrama's powers. This statement implies one needs hasihrama's dna to do the tech.


Conclusions;

If you look at each statement alone one condricts the other. But if you look at the statements together you get a new understanding of the uchiha vs senju in their time.

The only way to make both statements correct;

There had to have been other uchiha in the past that tried to control hasihrama's dna to use iznagai and potenially izanami and in turn made the tech forbidden. This implies Hasihrama is aware of the tech as there have been other uchiha that tried to control his power and therefore Madara/tobi and danzo werent the only ones that tried this.

[cypriottiger]

i see izanagi as an inferior version of the rinnegan version. As the Sage had both bloodlines, it makes sense that the sharingan version needs Senju DNA.

[Rlinfamous]

Danzou was limited both in his use of the Sharingan AND his use of Hashirama's power. The most he could gain from Hashirama's power was a boost to his stamina, which allowed him to wield the multitude of Sharingan. His Izanagi was imperfect, I believe, in the same way any Uchiha's would have been without True control of Hashirama's powers. The "reality" created by his Izanagi was temporary, lasting only one minute and affecting relatively little (his own body for a brief moment). This is a far cry from what the Rikudou, who was the true master of both bloodlines, could accomplish with his Rinnegan, where his creations lasted forever. This is probably because he was more capable of truly breathing Senju "vitality" into his creations, giving them life in the same way Hashirama could give life to flowers/trees. The difference is that the Rikudou also was a master of the Uchiha "conceptual/spiritual" component of Izanagi's creation, in which he could truly create reality out of imagination.

I believe an Uchiha could get as far as Danzou did, without the need for Hashirama's DNA. Once an Uchiha gain's Hashirama's DNA, and masters it, their Izanagi is limited only by their chakra capacity. The Rikudou needed the chakra of the Juubi to create the Bijuu, but someone like Madara or Tobi could create something like, say, Zetsu. Part of me thinks Madara used Izanagi to transplant his Rinnegan into Nagato (sort of an Immaculate Transplant, hence Nagato not remembering either the transplant or any recovery time).

[StareIntoMySharingan]

Izanagi and Izanami are techniques which belong to the Uchiha and their Sharigan, at the cost of their light; Itachi has made that clear. Danzou, being a non-Uchiha, probably needed Hashirama's DNA to not only use the same technique, but to prolong its effect, and also have so many sharingans at one time without being absolutely drained of chakra within a short period of time.

[Afro Thunda]

No, Izanagi (and presumably Izanami) were forbidden techniques among the Uchiha clan before Hashirama came into the picture. Danzo needed Hashirama's DNA to extend the length Izanagi could be active, that's all. The second statement implies that one needs Hashirama's DNA to do a perfect Izanagi, not that one needs it all to perform Izanagi in the first place. Once again, it wouldn't be a forbidden technique among the Uchiha if they couldn't do it anyway.

[Lakritze]

Actually, I can't see a way to explain the obvious contradiction. If I had to guess, i would say you need Hashirama's DNA to get a perfect Izanagi, but that you can make it work without.

Don't forget what Itachi is going to do: Obviously, he is going to activate Izanami. He is, however, not the kind of guy who would let anyone manipulate his DNA, that's why I am quite sure he does not have any Hashirama-DNA. I don't think that Izanami needs the First Hokage's DNA.

When you accept that, let's go a step further: Does it really make sense that one jutsu of the Ninjutsu-pair Izanami/Izanagi has a requirement the other doesn't? I - for my part - don't think so. That's why I would guess you necessarily need Hashirama's DNA for any of them.

Yet I must admit, there are still a few open questions:

• If you don't need Hashirama's DNA for an imperfect Izanagi, why did Tobi need it at all? He didn't do anything special when he fought Konan, he just avoided the last fatal blow. Nothing "perfect" there. Maybe his statement was just for us.
• Maybe, psukkar's assumption is correct and former Uchihas really tried to make Izanagi work. We all argue under the assumption you need Hashirama's DNA. But maybe, the DNA of any Senju-member sufficed, at least for Izanagi - whether it would have sufficed in order to activate the Rinnegan is a whole other story. Hashirama was not the only Senju.
• Where did Itachi learn about these techniques in the first place? Was it a well-known legend, as the Mangekyou? Since Uchihas are used to stealing each other's eyes, why not risk one eye to try out and if it doesn't work, there is also an other Uchiha right around the corner to "offer" his. (By the way: Why did Izuna and Madara not just swap their eyes? Sasuke seems happy with Itachi's now perfect eyes, although Itachi was close to being blind having the very same eyes Sasuke has now.)
• When was Izanagi forbidden? Knowing this might help uncover its history, though we might never learn about that.

Do my assumptions convince you?

[Kenny Bones]

I don't think you need Hashirama cells to do the jutsu's. Hashirama cells give the user loads of life force, allowing its effect to last longer. Madara wanted Hashirama's cells in order to merge the chakras of both sons. And probably in order to activate the rinnegan.

[paulbee]

1) I am not sure what Tobi means by imperfect Izanagi using Hashirama's cells since:-

2) There was no substantial difference between Danzo's Izanagi and Tobi's Izanagi, although both of them were using Hashirama's cells, and both lost the Light in the eye/s they used.

3) A suitably skilled Uchiha can use Izanagi without need of Hashirama's cells, this is strongly suggested by Itachi's use of Izanami,, which also results in blindness, and he has no Hashirama's cells in him.

4) It is possible that An Uchiha with EMS can use Izanagi without going blind...MAYBE this is the perfect version.

5) Only a Rikudou with Both Bloodlines, and Tons of chakra can perform the permanent reality changing Izanagi.

Note that We don't really know what Tobi is. He could have a partly Uchiha body (or not), or he could be a totally artificial being. We only know for sure that he possesses a lot of Madara's memories and Madara's techniques. And we know that he has Hashirama's cells in him. It would therefore be premature to use Tobi as a solid example of how an Uchiha can use Izanagi. The closest example we have is Itachi's use of Izanami, which has similar effects with Izanagi.

[POW]

I think Afro got it right in order to use a more perfected Izanagi as in a longer stable length of time it requires Hashrima's DNA. Uchiha using it otherwise will get various results in terms of the length of time the jutsu lasts. Tobi was able to extend his time limit to about 5 minutes with a single eye where Danzou was only able to get about 1 min per eye.

Izagami is an unknown but probably would be enhanced with Hashrima DNA.

[paulbee]

I think Afro got it right in order to use a more perfected Izanagi as in a longer stable length of time it requires Hashrima's DNA. Uchiha using it otherwise will get various results in terms of the length of time the jutsu lasts. Tobi was able to extend his time limit to about 5 minutes with a single eye where Danzou was only able to get about 1 min per eye.

Izagami is an unknown but probably would be enhanced with Hashrima DNA.

Problem is that Tobi has Hashirama's cells, and he lasted as long as 5 mins, but he also lost his left eye sharingan, can this really be "perfect"? If so, What happens when an EMS user does it, or an EMS user with Hasirama's cells?