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  1. #21
    Legendary Member halaros536's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by arisart View Post
    Why did Oda give Pekoms lower bounty than pre TS Kidd? Well why did Oda give Luffy a higher bounty than Caribo? Its clear that the are a lot of people who got bounties that they they deserve too so we can only assume on how most people got their bounties. And Kid's high bounty was already explained. It's not because of his sole strength but because what he has done to civilians.
    Kidd was just an example.The point is that Pekoms bounty was in the range of the supernovas.

    And the logic you used to explain why Kidd has a higher bounty than Pekoms can give you the answer as for why Enel could have a higher bounty than Enel despite being weaker.



    Ok, now at least you agree that Enel can be more dangerous than Jinbei. That's what I'm trying to say all along. If he just fights smart and start the fight in a distance then Enel would beat him. So saying Jinbei, one shotting Enel is the only possible outcome is not true. And let's be honest here, Enel is just a bad match up for Jinbei. His water techniques can be used against him. He'll be limited to his karate(if Jinbei hit him with his best karate technique then it's a different story).
    Yes from a large distance he is.He'd also be a much,much greater threat to the civilians and the WG going by his insane personality,while Jimbe despite being strong and famous he isnt actually threating anyone.You just answered this with the Kidd-Pekoms comparison that you made.

    So tell me what can Enel do to avoid this one shot?He cant react to Jimbe's attacks nor can he tank them.He would deal him some damage if Jimve was far,far away but thats all.

    Yes Hal, Airicks is correct. You're selling him short by saying Jinbei or Sanji would just one shot him like Enel has no chance to win.
    I'm not.He has a chance,but its like 0.1%.
    That's practically what I'm saying. Offense wise he's up there but his defense puts him just under the upper part of the high-tier group given he drops the god thingy and be smart. This is also what I think of Oda saying 500 mil "at the most" coz Enel will never be on par with guys like Akainu defensively. So I feel like it's the ceiling for the high tiers.
    It.does.not.Deal.with.it.

    If he was on the upper high tier,he would be somewhat close to the top-tiers.But we know for a fact that any top-tier can stomp him with ease.Thus he isnt close to them,so he isnt upper high tier.End of story.

    I'll quote myself again:

    His physical stats are on the same general level as pre TS gearless Luffy-Fact.
    Current Luffy is dozens of time stronger than that-Fact.
    In the NW everyone and their mothers have haki-Obvious.
    All top-tiers have haki-Painfully obvious.
    All top-tiers are leagues above current Luffy/Jimbe level people- Fact

    Conclusion:Any top-tier can stomp Enel.Its not rocket science.
    Is anything i'm saying here false?



    Quote Originally Posted by Uzumaki_Tim View Post

    ^^When you mentioned that Enel's advantage of using his haki from afar is useless up close, what makes you think that Enel would allow himself to get up close, he is kinda the speed of lightning.
    Enel has good speed only in going from one place to another.His combat speed sucks as evident by the fact that he couldnt lolblitz Luffy,nor evade his attacks with utter ease.He can

    All this said Enel needs some serious Haki training to compete with the mid lvl Vice Admirals or stronger. Don't get me wrong, he is extremely dangerous, it's just that he isn't on the same level as people like Marco.

    Firefirst Ace would probably end up in a long as drawn out stalemate against him, kinda like he did with Jimbe. Ace is still stronger then Enel but his Haki hasn't been shown to be strong enough to take Enel out.
    Thats because we never had the chance to see his haki.

  2. #22
    pirate hunter arisart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by halaros536 View Post
    Yes from a large distance he is.He'd also be a much,much greater threat to the civilians and the WG going by his insane personality,while Jimbe despite being strong and famous he isnt actually threating anyone.You just answered this with the Kidd-Pekoms comparison that you made.

    So tell me what can Enel do to avoid this one shot?He cant react to Jimbe's attacks nor can he tank them.He would deal him some damage if Jimve was far,far away but thats all.

    I'm not.He has a chance,but its like 0.1%.

    It.does.not.Deal.with.it.

    If he was on the upper high tier,he would be somewhat close to the top-tiers.But we know for a fact that any top-tier can stomp him with ease.Thus he isnt close to them,so he isnt upper high tier.End of story.


    Enel has good speed only in going from one place to another.His combat speed sucks as evident by the fact that he couldnt lolblitz Luffy,nor evade his attacks with utter ease.He can
    .
    You just answered your question, by staying on a distance. He would have enough time to move out of the way when Jinbei attack.

    0.1% Really? Now you are just being illogical.

    I never said he would beat any Top tier. I actually agree that the Akainu's and the Shanks of the OP world would beat Enel. But that doesn't mean his offense is not comparable. It's just that These people would have great defense while he would be sitting duck.

    You need to read the SI arc again. Enel did blitz Luffy then hit him with lightning. He also avoided Luffy's attacks with ease except those time where Luffy hit the wall instead. And if you further read to the end. Enel at first didn't want to dodge Luffy's attack. He even did a defensive pose. His plan was to hit him back. It was too late when he realize Luffy was going in too fast. If Enel wanted to dodge in the first place, he could probably do it. Enel has great combat speed if we talking about offense. His lightning speed is faster than Jinbei or Sanji. His reaction time is the problem.

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  3. #23
    Legendary Member halaros536's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by arisart View Post
    You just answered your question, by staying on a distance. He would have enough time to move out of the way when Jinbei attack.
    No i did not.You are unable to see the difference between different notions.

    I said that his speed is good for going from one place to another fast.His reactions are not good enough so that he will react on time when Jimbe attacks him.

    0.1% Really? Now you are just being illogical.
    Enel's chances of winning are close to non existant.I've given my reasoning for that.You havent.You are just saying "no,you are wrong".You are not countering my arguments,nor are you giving any actual evidence that Enel wouldnt be one shot.All you keep repeating is about his great offence,which is indeed great,but you dont explain how can he avoid being stomped.


    I never said he would beat any Top tier. I actually agree that the Akainu's and the Shanks of the OP world would beat Enel. But that doesn't mean his offense is not comparable. It's just that These people would have great defense while he would be sitting duck.
    I know you didnt.Do you even realize the point of this debate or am i just wasting my time on you?You've said since the beginning of this debate that you consider Enel to inferior to these guys and i never implied that you said otherwise.The point of our debate is whether or not is Enel close to those guys.

    I've presented evidence why he isnt,which you constantly refuse to address.I'm posting this for a third time:


    His physical stats are on the same general level as pre TS gearless Luffy-Fact.
    Current Luffy is dozens of time stronger than that-Fact.
    In the NW everyone and their mothers have haki-Obvious.
    All top-tiers have haki-Painfully obvious.
    All top-tiers are leagues above current Luffy/Jimbe level people- Fact

    Conclusion:Any top-tier can stomp Enel.Its not rocket science.


    Is anything i said wrong?Can you reasonably argue against those 5 premises,that should be common sense by now?You can proceed to do so if you like,but you're fighting a losing battle.

    Top-tiers can stomp Enel and thats a fact,given the evidence i presented.

    When a character can be stomped by another one,he is not close to him.

    Finally,i've never not even once said that his offense is not comparable to theirs.In fact,i've said the exact opposite.Why are even repeating this,like its something i do not acknowledge?It gives me the feeling that you're not reading my posts carefully.

    You need to read the SI arc again. Enel did blitz Luffy then hit him with lightning. He also avoided Luffy's attacks with ease except those time where Luffy hit the wall instead. And if you further read to the end. Enel at first didn't want to dodge Luffy's attack. He even did a defensive pose. His plan was to hit him back. It was too late when he realize Luffy was going in too fast. If Enel wanted to dodge in the first place, he could probably do it. Enel has great combat speed if we talking about offense. His lightning speed is faster than Jinbei or Sanji. His reaction time is the problem.
    He doesnt have good combat speed.His lighting attacks do travel fast,but the point is that he himself cant attack fast,because as a person he isnt fast.Its like when Luffy dodged the PX's laser and called it "slow".Something traveling at light speed is obviously not slow,its just that the PX movements which were causing the attack and the time needed to charge made it slow.

    His reaction speed is what would allow him to get cut in half in like half a second by someone like Mihawk or Rayleigh.

  4. #24
    Senior Member cross777's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by arisart View Post
    You just answered your question, by staying on a distance. He would have enough time to move out of the way when Jinbei attack.

    0.1% Really? Now you are just being illogical.

    I never said he would beat any Top tier. I actually agree that the Akainu's and the Shanks of the OP world would beat Enel. But that doesn't mean his offense is not comparable. It's just that These people would have great defense while he would be sitting duck.

    You need to read the SI arc again. Enel did blitz Luffy then hit him with lightning. He also avoided Luffy's attacks with ease except those time where Luffy hit the wall instead. And if you further read to the end. Enel at first didn't want to dodge Luffy's attack. He even did a defensive pose. His plan was to hit him back. It was too late when he realize Luffy was going in too fast. If Enel wanted to dodge in the first place, he could probably do it. Enel has great combat speed if we talking about offense. His lightning speed is faster than Jinbei or Sanji. His reaction time is the problem.

    the only problem was his haki fails him because luffy had no idea where his attacks where going to land. the real problem is enel got to smug using his CoO haki to avoid attacks and his intangibly. rather than his considerable skills to avoid attacks.

    i dont agree with the sitting duck thing 100%, now he would not beat shanks or anything like that but heres the thing. luffy was his one weakness. the kid got lucky. if you take a away his rubber insulation but leave all the abilities enel would have owned him, easy. even if lufy could still hit him if enel could have hurt luffy, luffy would have been pawned. at thats the true issue here people down grade enel because luffy beat him. luffy just got lucky pure and simple. i think he could put up a good fight. would he take shanks down probably not. but it would be interesting at the least.

    forget all the tier crap. enel is one of the more powerful characters is one piece. i really dont think oda will waste such a strong character so when he comes back im sure it will be good.
    Quote Originally Posted by arisart View Post
    Lol, I bet you argue too much with cross. It's not really healthy you know.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Death View Post
    Hey stick to the topic, quit asking nonsense question about other series or if cross777 is thunder luffy which by the way have different IP addresses.... Next person that goes off topic will be infracted...
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  5. #25
    pirate hunter arisart's Avatar
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    His speed id "good" from going one place to another? His speed moving from A to B IS GREAT. Unless you think Jinbei is faster than lightning. Your downplaying his speed in general.

    I've already given my reasoning on this debate. Enel HAD to stand there and wait for Luffy to be close enough for him to be able to strike back. He miscalculated and didn't expect that Luffy's final attack would be much more faster than usual which he evaded easily. I agree that his reaction is still slower than his actual movement cause if his reaction speed is as fast as his movement he would still be avoided it.

    If Enel would fight Jinbei, he doesn't even have to resort to his trident and stood in front of Jinbei like a sitting duck. You talk like Jinbei is faster than Enel in general. We haven't even seen him do any speed feat. You're just assuming that Jinbei is faster than pre-time skip Luffy. Although I agree with that, It's practically isn't much. His reaction would be a lot faster though if he uses CoO which Luffy doesn't have at that time. But that's only for defense which imo is still slower than lightning.

    I agree that Jinbei might be able to beat Enel given the chance coz he could one shot him but saying Enel winning is close to none is just laughable.

    Quote Originally Posted by halaros536 View Post

    His physical stats are on the same general level as pre TS gearless Luffy-Fact.
    Current Luffy is dozens of time stronger than that-Fact.
    In the NW everyone and their mothers have haki-Obvious.
    All top-tiers have haki-Painfully obvious.
    All top-tiers are leagues above current Luffy/Jimbe level people- Fact

    Conclusion:Any top-tier can stomp Enel.Its not rocket science.


    Is anything i said wrong?Can you reasonably argue against those 5 premises,that should be common sense by now?You can proceed to do so if you like,but you're fighting a losing battle.
    .
    You don't have to repeat all of this. I'm not disagreeing with it. In fact, believe in it all as well. What I'm arguing about is Jinbei ain't top tier. He's high tier like Enel (both we agree) so saying, A guy who is on the same tier would only have 0.01 percent of winning is ridiculous.

    I've already stated that Enel is on high-tier not top. Only his offense is what I considered Top. In general he is on the upper high tier. Guys like Jinbei and the VA's outside of few are high tiers. And we both know the gap between high and top.

    Anyway, it's obvious no one would budge in so I'm just gonna leave it at that. I'll just let the other poster see my take on it. So far guys like Ailricks was able to see my point. Let's see if others can see yours.

    Anyway back to the original topic. Imo opinion Ace has 450 mil on strength and +100 mil due to his bloodline. Sofar that's the highest bounty we know. Can't wait to see the Yonkou's bounty if there's any.

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  6. #26
    Legendary Member halaros536's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by arisart View Post
    His speed id "good" from going one place to another? His speed moving from A to B IS GREAT. Unless you think Jinbei is faster than lightning. Your downplaying his speed in general.


    Enel most probably can go from A to B faster than Enel.His reactions arent good enough to allow him to react to Jimbe's attacks and do that.

    I've already given my reasoning on this debate. Enel HAD to stand there and wait for Luffy to be close enough for him to be able to strike back. He miscalculated and didn't expect that Luffy's final attack would be much more faster than usual which he evaded easily. I agree that his reaction is still slower than his actual movement cause if his reaction speed is as fast as his movement he would still be avoided it.
    You have,but it is not enough to support what you are claiming.

    What you're saying is something correct,but it does not change the fact that if he's reactions were even close to someone like Post TS Sanji,he'd have still evaded that with absolute ease.The fact that he couldnt,only means that he wouldnt be able to evade an attack from Post TS Zoro.

    He could only give him some trouble if the distance was too great,because he could spam his attacks before Zoro reached him,but nothing indicates that without maxim his attacks would able to bring Zoro down for good,not to mention that with his CoO and extreme reactions he would dodge most of them.When Zoro has reached him,its game over for him.

    If Enel would fight Jinbei, he doesn't even have to resort to his trident and stood in front of Jinbei like a sitting duck. You talk like Jinbei is faster than Enel in general. We haven't even seen him do any speed feat. You're just assuming that Jinbei is faster than pre-time skip Luffy. Although I agree with that, It's practically isn't much.
    I'm sorry,but isnt it blatantly obvious that Jimbe is somewhat on par with current Luffy?Do you seriously need anything more?

    His reaction would be a lot faster though if he uses CoO which Luffy doesn't have at that time. But that's only for defense which imo is still slower than lightning.
    His reaction was good enough to block a g2 attack from post TS Luffy.
    And he was fast enough to punch Luffy back.

    You don't have to repeat all of this. I'm not disagreeing with it. In fact, believe in it all as well. What I'm arguing about is Jinbei ain't top tier. He's high tier like Enel (both we agree) so saying, A guy who is on the same tier would only have 0.01 percent of winning is ridiculous.
    The way you talk makes it seem otherwise.When you're saying that he's close to them,it is like he wouldnt be stomped by them.

    And even among the high tiers,there can be great differences.

    For example Magellan was able to take out a fellow high-tier(Iva) with no significant injuries.Shiryu was his equal.He could take Iva without mch trouble aswell.

    And i've trouble believing that Oars JR was only a mid-tier,yet Kuma and Dofla made him seem like a joke.Though i suppose you could make a case for Dofla being a top-tier,but i personally doubt it.

    Boa Hancock had Momonga on his kness,if that counts for anything.Its clear that there are big differences even among the high-tiers.

    I cannot consider Moria a mid tier either yet Jimbe dealed with him pretty easily in the war.


    I've already stated that Enel is on high-tier not top. Only his offense is what I considered Top. In general he is on the upper high tier. Guys like Jinbei and the VA's outside of few are high tiers. And we both know the gap between high and top.
    This is where we disagree.And since you seem to agree that Enel would be stomped by Aka for example,i dont see why do yu rank him as upper high tier.Just so you know,i do not rank current Luffy or Smoker as upper high tiers either.

    The high-high tiers should be the guys who are somehow close to the top-tiers and can put up a fight against them.Enel,Luffy,Jimbe,Iva and many others we've mentioned,do not qualify as such.



    Anyway back to the original topic. Imo opinion Ace has 450 mil on strength and +100 mil due to his bloodline. Sofar that's the highest bounty we know. Can't wait to see the Yonkou's bounty if there's any.
    I can see someone like Shanks having close to a billion.
    Last edited by halaros536; 04-01-2012 at 04:02 PM.

  7. #27
    Senior Member Airicks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by halaros536 View Post
    For example Magellan was able to take out a fellow high-tier(Iva) with no significant injuries.Shiryu was his equal.He could take Iva without mch trouble aswell..
    I'm having a good time reading both your comments lol

    I know this is getting off point, though, I thought Magellan was Admiral level (making him top-tier), I mean there wasn't anyone who was even close to him in ID that he fought, also I highly doubt Shiryu was his equal, maybe in terms of the prison and since Magellan wasn't able to be active but for a few hours a day - though I'm quite sure if they fought Shiryu would get handled .. Seriously, Magellan took out all the BB pirates in 1 go without even using his red poison.

    Quote Originally Posted by arisart View Post
    Anyway back to the original topic. Imo opinion Ace has 450 mil on strength and +100 mil due to his bloodline.
    I agree, after all (as you said) Ace lost his 'drive' seemly after he joined the WB pirates, like I don't think they gave a time table, but, he was able to fight Jimbie evenly for days until WB came and forced him to join his crew - Jimbie shouldn't had powered up 'that' much after that fight considering he was already rather old..

    Given another year or 2 without allies like WB, he and his crew would had become much stronger since they would have had to fight stronger guys more often, I think when he died he was about as strong as a mid-to-high level VA... if he never joined WB's crew I think he could have been Admiral level.

    (again I'm not sure about the timeline, he must had been in WB's crew for awhile since he was even considered to take control of the 2nd Division when Thatch got killed)
    Last edited by Airicks; 04-02-2012 at 02:33 AM.
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  8. #28
    Legendary Member halaros536's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Airicks View Post
    I'm having a good time reading both your comments lol

    I know this is getting off point, though, I thought Magellan was Admiral level (making him top-tier), I mean there wasn't anyone who was even close to him in ID that he fought, also I highly doubt Shiryu was his equal, maybe in terms of the prison and since Magellan wasn't able to be active but for a few hours a day - though I'm quite sure if they fought Shiryu would get handled .. Seriously, Magellan took out all the BB pirates in 1 go without even using his red poison.
    You thought wrong.Nothing at all indicates Magellan was a top-tier.So,just because Iva,Jimbe and co werent close to him does that make him a top-tier?Guys Iva are like bugs to the top-tiers.And despite what i said earlier about Magellan being much stronger than Iva,to which i insist,we should note vthat Iva held him back for quite some time and gave him a very slight injury.

    So Mag is stronger than Iva by quite the margin and can beat him without too much effort,but Iva aint no fodder to him.

    Again,that shows that even amongst the high tiers the differences can be too great and thats reasonable,since high tiers on Luffy's level are fodder to top-tiers ,but there should be some guys who are close to the top without being there.Those guys should also be much,much stronger than Jimbe for example.

    Magellan took them out only because they just stood there and let him attack them.Magellan obviously isnt stronger than the entire BB crew.In fact he shouldnt even be stronger than BB seeing that the latter became Shiryu's captain.Unless you think Shiryu>>>his captain,which wouldnt make any sense at all.

    BB himself wasnt admiral level pre TS,seeing how near dead Wb made a joke out him.For reasons stated,i dont rank Magellan higher than BB so he isnt a top-tier.Not that anything indicated that to begin with.Its an other thing to be an impressive fighter and another one to have fought with strongest man,or to be able to give the admirals a fight.

    If you have noticed Oda chooses to show in a very clear way,who the top-tiers are.The Yonkou are the strongest pirates,Wb is Wb,the Admirals are the strongest marines who were able to fight Wb,Jozu fought another top-tier equally,Mihawk has his title.Usually the top-tiers in this manga are shown to be so,in a way that doesnt leave any doubts.Hence i doubt Dofla being a top-tier,but i see him as the strongest high tier out there.

    Anyway,on topic when do you think Luffy will reach Ace's bounty?

  9. #29
    H+ xioaxioa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by halaros536 View Post

    Anyway,on topic when do you think Luffy will reach Ace's bounty?
    No! My Internet has been out all weekend, and I've been dieing to get my hands on this thread.

    Numbered for your benefit.
    1: Enels' Observational Haki is the most advanced we've seen. Being able to see people, hear them speak and read their thoughts and actions for seemingly miles away.
    2: Enels' Logia is said, as per Robin, to be one of the most powerful Devil Fruits. Robin, who's run from the Admirals and hung out with Crocodile.
    3: Enel has already destroyed two Islands that we know of. Though, to be fair, they were made of cloud.
    4: When Jimbie used Haki to stop Akainu, he still burnt his hand. Even if you use Haki on Enel, you will still get shocked; just not as bad.
    5: Enel has the ability to restart his heart when he dies.

    Against a top tier opponent, Enel would lose.
    Against Ace, Enel would lose; but it wouldn't be an easy match.
    Against other High tiers, it's a gamble.

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  10. #30
    Legendary Member halaros536's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xioaxioa View Post
    No! My Internet has been out all weekend, and I've been dieing to get my hands on this thread.

    Numbered for your benefit.
    1: Enels' Observational Haki is the most advanced we've seen. Being able to see people, hear them speak and read their thoughts and actions for seemingly miles away.
    Thats because we didnt have the chance to see any really strong guys using their Observational haki to the fullest or even near that.

    Pretty much we have seen very few things from the strong haki users like the admirals or other top-tiers.
    2: Enels' Logia is said, as per Robin, to be one of the most powerful Devil Fruits. Robin, who's run from the Admirals and hung out with Crocodile.
    But his fruit is indeed one of the most powerfull ones.He isnt though.A fruit alone cant make you insanely strong when there are things like haki and there are loads of people who are physically superior to you.

    Do not forget what Pekoms said.That logias who think they're invincible wont stand a chance in the NW,or something along those lines.Enel was one of those cases,just like Croc.

    3: Enel has already destroyed two Islands that we know of. Though, to be fair, they were made of cloud.
    1)Made of cloud as you said.
    2)Maxim...

    4: When Jimbie used Haki to stop Akainu, he still burnt his hand. Even if you use Haki on Enel, you will still get shocked; just not as bad.
    So,just because Aka's attacks are "strong" enough to do that,we must assume that Enel's are too?Especially without maxim?

    No matter the case,i did not say that Jimbe wouldnt be damaged by Enel.In fact,i said that if the starting distance was great,he would inflict some damage,but given his CoA which can reduce the damage,his CoO and superior reactions he wouldnt be taken down.If it gets up close,i honestly dont see how does Enel stand a chance.

    5: Enel has the ability to restart his heart when he dies.
    Enel was able to do that this time.If the damage inflicted to his body is too great he wont be able to do it.And its not like Jimbe cant just punch him dead again.


    Against a top tier opponent, Enel would lose.
    Obviously.
    Against Ace, Enel would lose; but it wouldn't be an easy match.

    Against other High tiers, it's a gamble.
    It depends on the high tier.For example i'm sure Moria would get fried.Point is that Enel isnt among the very strongest of the top-tiers who are really close to the top.

    Anyway,dont you think that we should get back to the topic of this thread,which by the way isnt Enel's powerlevel?

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