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  1. #1
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    Kakashi's sharingan made him stronger or weaker

    Kakashi Sharingan vs Kakashi no sharingan

    Would Kakashi be stronger without Obito's sharingan. Please do not throw this idea out strait away

    Kakashi was the Hokage elect and recognised as one of the strongest jounin in the village but he does not seem to be on a Sannin/Hokage battle level. I think you see this in the fight with Kakuzu that he seemed outclassed and naruto had passed him by that point before getting sage mode.

    Kakashi no sharingan advantages

    1. He would not have gained the traits of Obito. Ie late to training/less inspired to train and to be the best. Him going alone with his chidori at the start of the gaiden shows how he wanted to be able to take on elite ninjas on his own. Also remember how well Kakashi is able to analyse both Naruto and Sasuke to create training programs to best utilize their abilities you would think he would also be able to do this for himself. In manga 502, the flashback to Minato fighting the nine tails Gai wants to battle Kakashi but he does not want to train but rather play rock-paper-scissors

    2. Creation of his own jutsu. At 13 he had created Chidori but it was incomplete because he did not have the eyes for it but still he had created a new elemental attack perfect if the enemy cannot counter. Also if you see the progress of chidori through Sasuke Kakashi may have been also able to make these improvements. He most likely has the rasengan at this point as well. I am guessing he learnt rasengan but without the ability to use both shape and elemental he used the same concept of chakra at a single point but just nature manipulation. You would think he would be able to create new jutsu if he was able to create Chidori at a young age. Since he gained the Sharingan he has created no new jutsu

    3. Without a sharingan he would have been concentrating on other Jutsu. If he had already learnt the rasengan (presumed and explained in 2.) he may have looked at Minato's other ability's most notably his time space Jutsu. While it may have been impossible for him to learn and he would not have mastered it in the time they had left together (approx 1 year) he may have been able to gain the basics of this jutsu and master it over time. We do not know if kakashi ever looked at learning this jutsu but with gaining the sharingan he would have had to dedicate a lot of time to master it so would have never had a chance to learn space time jutsu. Also his mangekyou sharingan ability is a time space jutsu which may be his or Obito's affinity to time space jutsu's. Kakashi seems to not had Minato's technique explained to him at the start of the the gaiden he does not recognise the jutsu seal on the kunai he receives from Minato. This is not the only other technique kakashi may have concentrated on but he may have been better at ninjutsu. He definitely would not have more techniques than copycat kakashi but may have learnt how to utilise some better.

    4. His progression as a Child. Graduated academy at 5 the youngest we see I think (Sarutobi[9], Sannin[6], Yamato[7], Minato[10?], Itachi[7]. He got promoted to Chunin a year later (so 6) and was a jounin at 13 the same age as Itachi becoming a ANBU captain, Now Kakashi is slightly behind Itachi but Itachi's promotion may be seen as part of Danzou's plan while Kakashi's may have been because of lack of strength because of the war but anyway lets say they are very close at this point. When they do fight outside konoha Itachi is way ahead. the split of both of them may be down to kakashi gaining the sharingan.

    5. Progression of masters and students the general rule. Now while students do not always surpass their masters (Sannin probably did not surbass the 3rd) they seem to get close or surpass them. Now it went the 2nd Hokage (do not think 1st was the 2nd's master just his brother so probably sparred a lot) to the 3rd who was around the same maybe stronger (haven't seen 2nd's total potential including his time space jutsu) to Jiraiya who was slightly weaker but still legendary to Minato stronger to Kakashi who seems a lot weaker. He may have been able to reach his full potential if he did not have the Sharingan.

    6. Sharingan a massive chakra user. Kakashi does not have a huge amount of chakra and especially since he is not an Uchiha it uses a lot of his chakra very quickly.

    7. His father. Had potential to reach his father's strength whose name made the sannin's 'Pale in comparison' so may have had potential to have more abilities in that line. Master the white chakra blades presuming they will have some advantage over just putting chakra into a normal blade as what is the point of the bloodline ability. I am presuming his old blade broke in gaiden as he was not very proficient at it yet or just his lack of chakra meant it was not very strong. May also have had another summon. While his current summon are dogs most others have a giant beast and I would say his father may have had contact with wolves as summons often go with users techniques.

    8. Kakashi is not a natural sharingan user so it has more drawbacks and if Kakashi without a sharingan got used to fighting dojutsu he may exploit copycat kakashi abilities

    Kakashi sharingan advantages

    1. copycat ability. Could copy any Jutsu the other kakashi used

    2. better genjutsu. while used with his copycat jutsu a sharingan would give him better genjutsu

    3. better sight in taijutsu, can be seen with his ability to use chidori after gaining it

    4. use of ninjustsu previously copied. Is meant to have learnt 1000 jutsu he has copied

    5. space time jutsu where he can sort of insta-kill someone or rip a limb off. Normally needs time to use and only uses if necessary.

    6. Kakashi's fathers death. In the gaiden (Kakashi 13) Minato explains that the mission which White Fang saved his comrades instead of proceeding with the mission was 5 years earlier (Kakashi 8). This coincides with Kakashi slow down in progress remember he graduated at 5 and became Chunin at 6 after the second ninja wars when tensions were still high (third ninja war broke out only four years after second ended) so they may have needed more shinobi quickly but it may also be because of was what his father taught him as he was much younger than other genii to graduate (minato graduated at an older age during a war) so with his father no longer there he may not have become nearly as strong. Without his father he also would have most likely not been able to learn any more family jutsu (special uses of white chakra blade) or have proper contact with any more summoning creatures.

    Wondering what other people thought who probably have more of an idea than me?

    Him seeming weak to me just may be the need of progression of the story and while Naruto needs to progress super quickly Kakashi does not and him being a genius at a young age may be needed. I think fights that do not seem massive now drained Kakashi heaps.

    Sorry for the shortness of sharingan Kakashi part but you have all seen his strengths in the manga/anime
    Last edited by trenthamboy; 03-27-2012 at 03:31 AM.

  2. #2
    SIMS for short >:] StareIntoMySharingan's Avatar
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    I don't see anything that kakashi could've possibly invented that trumps kamui, especially considering how efficient kakashi has become with the technique. Chidori is generally impressive on its' own, especially when you consider kakashi's age when he created the jutsu, but it pales in comparison next to the godly powers that the blessed eyes bless the user with, ie kamui.

    Kishi gave kakashi the sharingan for a reason.
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  3. #3
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    thats bcoz you have always been narrowminded when it comes to ppl having the sharingan. you're right, kamui is idd a powerful jutsu and it has certainly saved a few lives but if it hadnt been the kamui it would have been something else that could prolly have done the same effect like making it into a regular jutsu with hand signs.

  4. #4
    Senior Member Nano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by almara View Post
    thats bcoz you have always been narrowminded when it comes to ppl having the sharingan. you're right, kamui is idd a powerful jutsu and it has certainly saved a few lives but if it hadnt been the kamui it would have been something else that could prolly have done the same effect like making it into a regular jutsu with hand signs.
    Being so defensive does not help people to side with your thoughts, take it on board - you asked for opininions and then when one was given that you dont agree with you lash out. Its a sign of a very weak mind.

    I am going to say no aswell. Simply for the comment about how is Kakashi did not have the sharingan then he would have continued working on Jutsu's. This is a lie. Kakashi was known as the copy Ninja simply because he could copy techniques with his sharingan. If he did not have the sharingan then he would not have been able to copy others techniques - which he would have learnt ALOT more than he could have ever invented.

    Yes he could have gone through all the pain and learnt Rasengan, but with the sharingan he can copy the rasengan, without too much effort.

    The sharingan gives him a much wider range of techniques and skills that he would never have had access to if he did not possess it, and as such have increased his overall strength.
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  5. #5
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    i dont quite get your post, Nano or rather im a bit confused by it. if kakashi didnt have the sharingan then how would he have developed jutsus? he would ofc have developed them himself, i think thats a given and then you argue that he wouldnt develop new jutsus if he didnt have the sharingan, something that kakashi already proved that he would thanks to the chidori, and that was my point in this particular comment.

    yes, kakashi having the sharingan does grant him some advantage but also some disadvantage. As you say, the sharingan allows him to predict movement and copy jutsus at the cost of constant chakra and stamina use, and it is known that kakashi doesnt have a huge chakra pool or pool of stamina, so he cant afford to fight for a long time.

    so in short, with the sharingan kakashi would be able to copy any jutsu with hand signs and thus increase his repetoire quite easily and effortlessly, and if he hadnt then he would have filled the gap by developing new jutsus but if you then take into account that so many shinobis have done a lot with relatively few jutsus(minato naruto to a degree etc.) i can totally see kakashi turning into that type of shinobi, assuming he didnt have the sharingan and we all know a wider range of techniques doesnt always equal a stronger shinobi or increased overall strength, many shinobis in the manga have shown us this.

  6. #6
    Senior Member Zero's Avatar
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    The thing is, all the techniques he copied through sharingan, he could have just learned in a normal way. Fact that it wouldn't take him a few seconds like in the Zabuza fight, but we certainly know that he is capable of mastering jutsus like rasengan (since he created chidori, because he couldn't mix rasengan with raiton chakra).

    The reason why there were many sharingan users, but only one copy ninja, is because Kakashi is capable of using most techniques, when the rest wasn't skilled as him (remember that the Uchiha clan was still famous and alive at that time).

    The time-space ninjutsu doesn't need a magical eye to be casted, thus it's possible that without the sharingan, Kakashi would still develop a space-time ninjutsu (especially since his teachers was a specialist in it).

    The truth is, Kakashi is suitable to the red eye, even more than most Uchiha clansmen (after all he was praised by the strongest Uchiha of that time). Sharingan boosts Kakashi's already great analytic capabilities and understanding of jutsu. This cursed eye truly fleshes out Hatake's talents and traits, without it, it's still possible that he would move in the similar direction, but closer to how the the 3rd Hokage was, yet you can't forget, that indifference to him, Kakashi was never stamina/chakra type.

    It is quite plausible that Kakashi's growth would have been different without the sharingan and in turn he could have become stronger that he is now. On the other hand, if the current Kakashi have lost his sharingan, his fighting power would went down, since his fighting style and his strongest jutsu are based on sharingan (though he still would be jounin class ).



  7. #7
    I think the only legitimate argument in favour of Kakashi without sharingan is that he would have put more effort into improving his own original skills than copying others. I don't think that's enough of an argument. Kakashi has rivalries and personal pride keeping him working hard at his craft.

    Besides, before Kakashi took Team 7 under his wing, it was said that no ninja ever saw Kakashi's Sharingan in battle and survived.

    I will say, though, that Kakashi is shown to be extraordinarily weak despite supposedly knowing 1000s of jutsus. In fact, we only see him use the same few over and over; the water dragon jutsu, the Uchiha fireball jutsu, and chidori, basically. If he really is the "copy ninja", he should be portrayed as extremely versatile in battle.

  8. #8
    Senior Member Afro Thunda's Avatar
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    The Sharingan is capable of copying just about any jutsu, but if Kakashi doesn't have the necessary skill required to use the technique (be it proficiency in a particular element, weapon, or whatnot), it is useless to him. So, of those 1000+ jutsus he's copied, only a very limited amount are available to him. So, even with the Sharingan, he would still have to push himself to learn new techniques/elements and train his body. Considering that he's relatively on par with Gai, Konoha's resident Taijutsu maniac, I can safely assume that even with the Sharingan, he hasn't been slacking off in his training. The man knows 3 elements as well (Water, Lightning and Earth. Fire was anime-only, so doesn't count). If anything, the only thing holding him back is the fact that he's not a stamina/chakra beast.

    Also, it's been confirmed in the manga that Kakashi learned the Rasengan before he created Chidori. He stated while he was training Naruto that the reason he created Chidori was because he couldn't combine his Lightning Element with the Rasengan.

  9. #9
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    Funny thing is I mentioned something similar to this thread at least twice and few people got what I was getting at.

    In many ways I think Kakashi's Sharingan has held him back because he relies on it too much. The point many people dont catch is that without the Sharingan Kakashi would have to develop his own unique style of fighting. A genius like Kakashi who only has 1 jutsu he invented himself?


    As the saying goes necessity is the mother of invention because he would have no choice but to rely on his own skills and invention of a special techniques that Kakashi would have to develop his own original brand of fighting. However because he has a Sharingan he has no need to focus on that so instead it has become a crutch for him to rely on. There are obvious benefits to having a Sharingan yes but it limits his motivation to develop more unique jutsu. I'm speaking here of creativity like that of Minato who was known for developing original one of kind jutsu's.


    So yeah I think while his knowledge and proficiency with jutsu has benefited his creativity and uniqueness of jutsu style tailored just for him has suffered.


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  10. #10
    SIMS for short >:] StareIntoMySharingan's Avatar
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    I guess the question comes down to if a Kakashi suddenly appeared from an alternative universe in which he never acquired Obito's sharingan, and for some reason, had a vendetta against the sharingan using Kakashi from this universe, who would win in a fight to the death.

    I find it to be a false presumption that having the sharingan has made Kakashi more lazy or unmotivated; he did develop the mangekyou after all, an astonishing feat in itself considering he's not an uchiha.

    I also doubt that Kakashi would be able to create any jutsu in the same caliber as Kamui, especially one which can be executed just as fast since Kamui needs not any hand seals. Chidori itself is quite the accomplishment, it's a A jutsu, deadly indeed, but even with sharingan, Kakashi wasn't able to combine his lightning nature with rasengan; it wouldn't happen without the sharingan, chidori is probably the best he can come up with.

    Also, you guys realize that almost NO ONE creates new jutsu, it's usually passed down and learned from the earlier generation; even "new" jutsus are build upon previously existing jutsus. So if anything, Kakashi's copying of a thousand jutsus allows him more material to work with in regards to creating new jutsu.
    And witness the sparkle within this world of darkness.
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