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  1. #1
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    Vasto Lorde / Arrancar mix up?

    Ok so this has been bugging me a while and I keep seeing people talk about the vasto lords and why we still haven't had a character pointed at and called one directly. Normally I just sit back and read but this has been swirling around in my head a while and I honestly think we've blown right past them and they are no longer important.

    If you check hierarchy, the hollow go like this:
    1. Hollow
    2. Gillian
    3. Adjuchas
    4. Vasto Lorde


    There's a quote somewhere that says that a handful of Vasto Lorde could easily destroy Soul Society. Since no one in Soul Society had ever really seen one I think it was just an exaggeration or a bluff of some sort. The Vasto Lord were supposed to be smaller, human like hollows that were of captain class or higher.

    There's more info on the wiki:
    http://bleach.wikia.com/wiki/Hollow

    I know the manga and the anime don't always line up exactly but if you watch Bleach anime episode 284 you will see that Halibel is referred to as a Vasto Lorde twice in the episode(Sorry I don't remember the times). Compared to the Adjuchas that are shown throughout the episode, you'll notice that only her and Barraggan have a "human like" appearance. I really think that these two characters were Vasto Lorde back before Aizen got a hold of them.

    When Aizen showed up in Hueco Mundo he started making the Arrancar. The Arrancar are hollows that have had their masks removed or partially removed, a result of the process Aizen used to make the hollow stronger. The stronger the hollow are before the Arrancar process, the greater the result and the more human like they appear. After the process, Baraggan is the #2 Espada, and Halibel is the #3 Espada.

    At the end of the anime episode 284 Aizen says that the combined strength of all the Espada-Arrancar is less than that of his own, and he calls the Visored a failed attempt at making Arrancar.

    If you put it all together I think it's safe to assume that the Arrancar form created by Aizen is more powerful than that of the Vasto Lord. Also I think that because Aizen was the one doing all the research on hollowfication, he probably was the one spreading the rumors or bluffs on how powerful the Vasto Lord actually were.

    Thoughts?

    Edit: watch the episode here if you want.
    http://www.bleachget.com/watch/bleach-episode-284/

  2. #2
    ɹǝʎʍɐן Я I Hand Banana's Avatar
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    This is a waste of read. At this point even if they were ichigo is just going yto kill the main leader. They are gonna be somewhat powered only to be outdone by the captains. There is not a point of bringing them up anymore since Kubo does a shitty job at story telling. I would be more satisfied if he'd just done an arc on the Bounts and make that animated arc filler canon

  3. #3
    Silent-ish stewchan's Avatar
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    Sure it was said somewhere, not sure where, that Aizen couldn't find any Vastolorde. Also, a captain each could beat Aizen's top 3 Espada, but 10 Vastolorde can destroy SS? Vastolorde>Arrancar

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hand Banana View Post
    This is a waste of read. At this point even if they were ichigo is just going yto kill the main leader. They are gonna be somewhat powered only to be outdone by the captains. There is not a point of bringing them up anymore since Kubo does a shitty job at story telling. I would be more satisfied if he'd just done an arc on the Bounts and make that animated arc filler canon
    I have no Idea what you are talking about. I am talking about the past appearances of the hollow and espada, and referring to the other posters asking "whatever happened to the vasto lorde??!". I am saying that we have already seen the vasto lorde and they were not as powerful as previously thought.
    Quote Originally Posted by stewchan View Post
    Sure it was said somewhere, not sure where, that Aizen couldn't find any Vastolorde. Also, a captain each could beat Aizen's top 3 Espada, but 10 Vastolorde can destroy SS? Vastolorde>Arrancar
    I don't recall any quote about Aizen not finding the vasto lorde. But if it was said, perhaps it was meant that he never found "what he was looking for"; that is, he never found vasto lorde that lived up to the hype and legend of being so powerful.
    As far as the new arc is concerned, I think the new enemies are a group of quincy set out for revenge. They could also be defectors from the royal guard that feel like soul society has outlived it's usefulness and share Aizen's ideal that everything should be remade anew. I mean they could even be royal guard soldiers that were kicked out for learning hollow/quincy powers.

    I think Ichigo is on track to battle these new enemies. If they are not quincy, they have something close to a quincy or fullbring ability, and also the hollow/shinigami combo. Either way it'll be a battle of tri-ability users. I am leaning towards the enemies being quincy and not royal guard, simply because everyone was so surprised that they could bankai. Someone higher than the shinigami in soul society could surely bankai to promote right?

    Anyway if this arc is supposed to last the next X number of years, I would expect this group to just be a cell group that belongs to a larger organization. If the new enemies were vasto lorde, they would be defeated and that would be the end of the arc since there are no stronger hollow than the vasto lorde (as far as we know)

  5. #5
    Serial Killer Next Door LeaT's Avatar
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    Here's what goes - Aizen never made a claim about not finding vasto lorde. What we see in the HM arc is Nnoitra and Nel being sent out finding vasto lorde as Aizen are apparently still looking for them, even after the creation of the espada. When this happened in the time line we don't know, but since we know that Nnoitra was 8 back then we can probably assume that some of the discarded espada were still a part of the espada back then i.e. Dordoni and Cirucci.

    Furthermore, one thing I always wondered is why people think Barragan looked the most humanoid out of the espada when he was essentially a walking corpse in a gas cloud. That doesn't make him very humanoid as in a living person with flesh and bone, not just bone. The one most humanoid of all the espada was Starrk, and even when he released Los Lobos he remained the most humanoid. Whether this proves that Starrk was a vasto lorde or not is a different matter but regardless. Barragan is probably the worst example one can cite to prove the required humanoid appearance when he was a talking corpse. Between a human that is alive made of flash and bone and a bone zombie in a gas cloud, I think I know which one I'll vote for being the most humanoid anyway.

    With that aside, it is likely that Starrk might perhaps have been the only vasto lorde among the espada. I am not sure if I buy into the idea that Ulquiorra would've been one based on his pre-arrancar form that easily rivals Condom Aizen. With that said. I've too considered whether the whole deal about the VL was just a ruse to trick us like the entire HM arc itself was, but yeah.
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  6. #6
    Senior Member Zero's Avatar
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    ^ I see that you don't quite understand what humanoid means. It's more about posture, overall build, proportions and not each detail, heck, Baragan look like a human skeleton, this already is far more humanoid than the thing people call humanoid, you know ?

    The moment something looks (almost exactly) like a human, you don't call it humanoid, because it surpasses that term, you say that it's true form is hidden behind the human appearance :p. Human belong in the term humanoid, but humanoid is a much wider term than human. Something that has a human appearance, has a humanoid form, but something that has a humanoid form, doesn't need to have a human appearance. For example the Predators (those aliens ;P) are humanoids, but their appearance is lizard-like.

    Was the last databook translated ? From what I heard there is mentioned which of the espada were VL.

    Aizen didn't say that he couldn't find any VL, he said that he couldn't find more. If he had indeed acquired the 10 VL as he wished, then SS+human realm might have lost the war (not really since Aizen orchestrated Ichigo's fights so that from each he would come out stronger and alive ?).


  7. #7
    Serial Killer Next Door LeaT's Avatar
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    I know that, but when we talk about the espada it becomes more or less humanoid because ALL of the espada were humanoid when released EXCEPT Aarinero and even then we can argue he possessed humanoid features because of Kaien. See, that analogy alone doesn't quite work then. My entire point was that between a skeleton in a gas cloud and a dude with an eyepatch made of bone, I think which one I would classify as the most human, since there is the underlying assumption that the more human a hollow resembles, the more likely it is to be a VL. We definitely know there is a correlation between hollow strength and human appearance because truth is that most of the adjuchas were humanoid as well, but were they as humanoid looking as we assume VL to be? No, they weren't.

    And no, the latest databooks NEVER confirmed any of the espada being VL or not.

    I also wish to emphasize one more thing, and that is the difference between human and hollow. See, it speaks for itself - even if a hollow looks exactly like a human it would still have a hollow hole and would thus be a hollow and not a human. Heck, after Ichigo transformed in IchiThing Ulquiorra still insisted on him being a human despite him noting that Ichigo for example used sonido over shunpo and emitted hollow-like behavior and reiatsu. My entire point being - classifications in Bleach aren't necessarily that simple that a hollow that looks 100% like a human stops being hollow and becomes a human.
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  8. #8
    Senior Member SquadZero's Avatar
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    I've said it before and I'll say it again. I'm pretty sure Kubo left the VL status of the espada in question intentionally in case he needed an uberpowerful baddie later. At this point in the game I am thinking that Kubo has moved on and that the VL are a topic that is lost to the void that is Kubo's ADD.

    Anyway back to the OP, I think you are missing the point. Aizen's arrancar could very well have been more powerful than natural vasto lordes, but its not a question of either/or, what people want to know is if any of Aizen's created arrancar(espada specifically) were created out of natural vasto lordes, which would presumably be the most powerful hollows possible.


    Quote Originally Posted by Hand Banana View Post
    stuff
    whoa. haven't your kind around these here parts much... thought you was dead.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by SquadZero View Post
    Anyway back to the OP, I think you are missing the point. Aizen's arrancar could very well have been more powerful than natural vasto lordes, but its not a question of either/or, what people want to know is if any of Aizen's created arrancar(espada specifically) were created out of natural vasto lordes, which would presumably be the most powerful hollows possible.
    This.

    The Espada were more human-like because of the Arrancar process they went through, not because they were Vasto Lorde. If Halibel was called a Vasto Lorde before Aizen, then we can conclude that at least the top 3 Espada were all Vasto Lorde before the Arrancar process(which made them stronger). The Espada Arrancar > Vasto Lorde.

    Grimmjow was the #6 espada and was not a Vasto Lorde before Aizen. He looked like this:

    Not humanoid.

    I can't remember if #5 Espada, Nnoitra Gilga was ever shown in his adjuchas form, but I imagine he would have looked almost humanoid but more like a praying mantis.

    I think the #4 Espada, Ulquiorra Cifer, was not a Vasto Lorde before Aizen, but he was able to access it afterwards. This is when Ulquiorra said something to the effect of "even Aizen doesn't know about this" or whatever he said.

    10 Vasto Lorde = Soul Society dies.
    3 Vasto Lorde = Good try, but not enough(which is what happened in the manga).

    The only exception to the humanoid/size/power theory is Yammy. I would say he would have been close to Vasto Lorde but was unable to condense his power down to make it more potent. He reminds me of a more powerful gillian. I would guess that Yammy was a hollow that took to the arrancar process at a near perfect level and increased his power by a LEAP. This could explain why he seems to be a moron and lacks battle prowess. Also, this could be why his power leaps by so much when he releases.
    Last edited by Approx01; 03-17-2012 at 11:22 PM.

  10. #10
    Silent-ish stewchan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeaT View Post
    Here's what goes - Aizen never made a claim about not finding vasto lorde. What we see in the HM arc is Nnoitra and Nel being sent out finding vasto lorde as Aizen are apparently still looking for them, even after the creation of the espada. When this happened in the time line we don't know, but since we know that Nnoitra was 8 back then we can probably assume that some of the discarded espada were still a part of the espada back then i.e. Dordoni and Cirucci.
    My bad, now wondering where I got that from

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