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  1. #11
    Serial Killer Next Door LeaT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Approx01 View Post
    This.

    The Espada were more human-like because of the Arrancar process they went through, not because they were Vasto Lorde. If Halibel was called a Vasto Lorde before Aizen, then we can conclude that at least the top 3 Espada were all Vasto Lorde before the Arrancar process(which made them stronger). The Espada Arrancar > Vasto Lorde.

    Grimmjow was the #6 espada and was not a Vasto Lorde before Aizen. He looked like this:

    Not humanoid.

    I can't remember if #5 Espada, Nnoitra Gilga was ever shown in his adjuchas form, but I imagine he would have looked almost humanoid but more like a praying mantis.

    I think the #4 Espada, Ulquiorra Cifer, was not a Vasto Lorde before Aizen, but he was able to access it afterwards. This is when Ulquiorra said something to the effect of "even Aizen doesn't know about this" or whatever he said.

    10 Vasto Lorde = Soul Society dies.
    3 Vasto Lorde = Good try, but not enough(which is what happened in the manga).

    The only exception to the humanoid/size/power theory is Yammy. I would say he would have been close to Vasto Lorde but was unable to condense his power down to make it more potent. He reminds me of a more powerful gillian. I would guess that Yammy was a hollow that took to the arrancar process at a near perfect level and increased his power by a LEAP. This could explain why he seems to be a moron and lacks battle prowess. Also, this could be why his power leaps by so much when he releases.
    But you seem to forget that some adjuchas were humanoid, for instance Shawlong. We've also seem scrub hollow appear as humanoid. If you think a murloc in WoW is humanoid (and yes, it's classified as such in game), then Fishbone-D (first hollow to appear in the manga) is humanoid and hey, it got arms and legs. It just looked it was fused with a fish.

    This is exactly what I'm saying - it can't just be a matter of appearing humanoid but more or less human. Many people think Ulquiorra is a VL based on his pre-arrancar form in Unmasked, even though in theory he looks as humanoid as Shawlong. It is therefore likely to assume that if Hitsugaya's words were true, then an actual VL must look very similar to that of a human.
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  2. #12
    Senior Member Afro Thunda's Avatar
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    As it was stated in the manga, the smaller and more humanoid (ie. the closer to looking like a human) the Arrancar, the more powerful it is. It doesn't matter whether it's a Gillian, Adjuchas, or Vasto Lorde. When turned into Arrancars, they will all take on more humanoid forms as opposed to what they looked like when they were Hollows and be much, much stronger when compared to their Hollow forms.

    So then, we've all established that An Arrancar of any class >>> Its previous Hollow form. If 10 Vasto Lorde Hollows, the strongest Hueco Mundo has to offer, whose abilities exceed those of Captain-class Shinigami (as stated by Hitsugaya, so I highly doubt he exaggerated/bluffed; there's no reason for him to in the first place), under Aizen's command, could bring about the downfall of SS, then 3 (or 4 if you still cling on to Ulquiorra being in the group) Vasto Lorde Arrancars, the strongest Hollows Hueco Mundo has to offer, now beefed up thanks to the Hougyoku, would not have had any, and I mean ANY, trouble dealing with any of the captains that had shown up in Karakura Town. Because, not only would these Vasto Lorde Arrancars be ridiculously fuckin' strong from the getgo, they'd still have their Resurrecions in waiting, which would make them even more ridiculously fuckin' strong. If I'm looking at this way (and I am), there's no way even one of them would have been defeated, not without every single captain/Vizard having to use their Bankai at the very least...

    This would be the page in question where Aizen mentions, for the first and last time, anything about Vasto Lordes: http://www.mangareader.net/94-667-19...apter-213.html

    Given that all the Espada were shown around this time (I think), but not all were formally introduced yet, I find it hard to believe that any of the top Espada were Vasto Lordes. He found some exceptionally strong Adjuchas-class Hollows, who he then Arrancarized, and filled out the Espada, replacing the weaker previous members (Dordonii, Nel*, Cirucci, and Ganteinbane).

    Well, that's all just my take on the whole Vasto Lorde situation, which is now obsolete courtesy of Kubo. Take it for you will.

  3. #13
    Senior Member Zero's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Afro Thunda View Post
    If 10 Vasto Lorde Hollows, the strongest Hueco Mundo has to offer, whose abilities exceed those of Captain-class Shinigami (as stated by Hitsugaya, so I highly doubt he exaggerated/bluffed; there's no reason for him to in the first place)
    That's an interesting line, if it's the same as in the manga (from a proper translation), then all Hitsugaya said, was that VL abilities were better than Captain-class Shinigami abilities (hard to not agree), not that their power was greater. With special abilities that are more special than that of Captains, they could perhaps do it, heck if H2Ichigo was an example, then instant regeneration of VL could be on the level of bringing them to top form from near death and that is only one of their basic abilities , they still would have ceros and other abilities (Barragan from the beginning could hasten time ?).

    The top espada was indeed powerful, but they were killable, no they even died out more easily than Shinigami. The strikes that Shinigami survived, Espada has fallen to, like Stark. Well, the Stark example can be explained that he already lost part of his power at that time and that he was a long range fighter. It should be mentioned as well, that Stark is seemingly the only known true Arrancar (the one that successfully and fully transformed without H-cube or anyones help).

    Even if top espada was made from VL, that doesn't mean that there aren't VL stronger than them. Just like the difference between Grimjou and his company (they were mostly adjuchas) is that big, the difference between individual VL can be even bigger. It's quite possible that VL never existed, but in truth, they could have been an incomplete Arrancars.

    Ulq must have been quite strong before becoming an Arrancar, since he was the only known espada that hasn't fully(but he did partially) sacrificed instant regeneration(IR) for a power boost (although I think that a power boost would be better than IR at that level ;P).



  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Afro Thunda View Post
    This would be the page in question where Aizen mentions, for the first and last time, anything about Vasto Lordes: http://www.mangareader.net/94-667-19...apter-213.html
    So this pretty much sums up some of my theory. Some of the Espada were already just Gillians (probably a lot of the ones that got replaced). He also said that when he finds the Vasto Lorde level hollows that the Espada would be finished off. Considering that Aizen made his move and began his plan, he felt that the Vasto Lorde had been found and that his Espada army was complete.

    Just the idea of Barragan says he was a Vasto Lorde. He was the king of Hueco Mundo and started Las Noches. Aizen simply took over and kept Las Noches as his fortress and base of operations. If there were stronger hollow out there, wouldn't they have come and kicked Barragan off his thrown and taken it for themselves? Aside from Stark of course, as he just didn't really care about anything.

    Also I pulled this off the wiki;
    Due to their immense power, Espada ranked cuatro and above are forbidden from releasing their Zanpakutō within Las Noches.
    This could further strengthen that the top 3 were Vasto Lorde and that Aizen did know about Ulquiorra Cifer "secret" release.

  5. #15
    Senior Member Zero's Avatar
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    ^ Not necessarily, just because Aizen wanted to dethrone the SK, doesn't mean that the SK had to do something to stop him, he/she/it didn't even sent the Zero Squad. It could be similarly with hollows.

    When Aizen came to HM, there already was Baragan residing in the ruin which he called Las Noches (at that point, there wasn't any espada or a higher hollow community), yet you have to wonder, was Baragan the one who made those ruins, or were there before ?



  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zero View Post
    ^ Not necessarily, just because Aizen wanted to dethrone the SK, doesn't mean that the SK had to do something to stop him, he/she/it didn't even sent the Zero Squad. It could be similarly with hollows.

    When Aizen came to HM, there already was Baragan residing in the ruin which he called Las Noches (at that point, there wasn't any espada or a higher hollow community), yet you have to wonder, was Baragan the one who made those ruins, or were there before ?
    I don't think there was a reason for anyone from the Soul King's realm to stop Aizen. He didn't have the key so he wasn't any threat.

    I don't know if Baraggan made Las Noches but it was noted that it was left the way it was because he didn't want a roof over him. The sky of Hueco Mundo was his roof. Also you'll note how big Aizen made Las Noches and how quickly he was able to do it. Was this the power of the hogyoku? Or does every person in Hueco Mundo have the ability to landscape and shape buildings out of the spirit dust?

  7. #17
    Senior Member Zero's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Approx01 View Post
    I don't think there was a reason for anyone from the Soul King's realm to stop Aizen. He didn't have the key so he wasn't any threat.

    I don't know if Baraggan made Las Noches but it was noted that it was left the way it was because he didn't want a roof over him. The sky of Hueco Mundo was his roof. Also you'll note how big Aizen made Las Noches and how quickly he was able to do it. Was this the power of the hogyoku? Or does every person in Hueco Mundo have the ability to landscape and shape buildings out of the spirit dust?
    It depends on what you mean by fast. The only thing we know is that Aizen contacted Baragan when he, Gin and Tousen were already captains, but before the incident with Ichigo. He then used his H-cube to create arrancars, espada and used them to create a true castle. Later on ,after rescue Rukia arc, Aizen fused his own H-cube with Urahara's H-cube and then have strengthened Arrancars with it, transformed Gin, found Stark and lastly created Wonderweiss.



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