Death Note

[aaaarrrggh]

Jesus okay I'll explain this one more time.

1.) If Light was perfect, he would have expected Mikami to pull that move. Thus in the end it is his fault.

I got your point but it's too easy to say that..
yagami can't never know what's going on in people's mind, even if he's so intelligent, there are some unpredictable matters.

As to say it's a weakness (or Light's fault) to rely on others, i disagree, yagami manipulated so many people and thanks to that he could go as far as he did (he relied a lot on Misa who wasn't really stable). Yagami took many risks in the story and yet it worked (until mikami's fault).

Whitebeard, your opinion is not the ultimate one, please show some respect here because what i felt reading your last post was like you were looking down on us.

[mgsplayer]

i agree aargh

withebeard liked the serie too,he even rated it #1 if i remeber one of his posts
but everyone's got their own perception of things...let's keep it that way

[Whitebeard]

I was agitated because I felt like I was repeating myself.

In response to aargh:

The answer to your post is the 2nd point in my last point. Unlike a majority of the people he controlled, he actually depended on Mikami. He though he was god, but in the end it turned out he's not. Don't get me wrong, it is also Mikami's fault. In fact, in a technical sense it is mostly his fault. But what I think the writer is trying to say is that its also Light's fault for having to be at the mercy of others (which is different than controlling people like Misa and his victims).

In the end, I actually appreciate the ending. The fact that Light lost to something so simple as to luck and/or fate just proved that he isn't all powerful.

[aaaarrrggh]

hmm Light lost because he thought he was a god but he depended on others like any humans. That's an interesting point. But i still disagree :^p

I don't know if the writer wanted to say some kind of moral .. but in my opinion, light didn't depend on mikami more than he depended on misa. Mikami was as easy to manipulate as was misa since he admired kira like a god.
But i agree the last task he told mikami to do was too important but it was a part of his whole project, he planned anyway that he would trash mikami after that, so for me mikami was just a pawn like the others he manipulated in this big chessgame between Yagami and L & cie. After all, it's all thanks to near's pawns that he lost, near's underlings managing to copy and exchange notes. Near barely moved his ass (that's why i prefer the first L xD)

To conclude, each Near and Light used people at their mercy (so i don't agree with you when you say Light to be at the mercy of others), i just assumed than Light lost because he was unlucky and his mikami toy was a bit too crazy and fanatic (i loved his reaction at the end xD)

PS : sorry for my bad english, i don't know if i made my opinion clear.

[Whitebeard]

The thing is, the difference between Mikami and all the other pawns (e.g. Misa) was that Mikami willingly knew he was a pawn. Sure Misa also knew she was being used, but she went along with it out of love and respect (Kira killed her parent's murderer). Mikami was the only other significant figure who did things on his own will and decisions in the name of Kira; Misa was just told what to do and the victims were forced by the Death Note to do things. Mikami was the only other partner of Kira with a will of his own. Thus he is the exception; for he shares the power and authority.

And you can't say Light wasn't at the mercy of Mikami because it was also Mikami's fault for taking out the Note at the wrong time. In the end Mikami was the deciding factor; you just can't deny that.

Near didn't physically do anything, but he was obviously the brains behind the operation. And that is by far the most important role. Light lost to Near and the others who opposed Kira.

By the way, I do agree with you on saying that Light lost to luck. Luck was a huge factor, and just further proves my point in saying that Light isn't god, because he wasn't all-powerful. He had weaknesses.

[aaaarrrggh]

Mikami was the only other significant figure who did things on his own will and decisions in the name of Kira; Misa was just told what to do and the victims were forced by the Death Note to do things. Mikami was the only other partner of Kira with a will of his own. Thus he is the exception; for he shares the power and authority.

Yes, Mikami had to decide on his own, but it's because Light couldn't send proper instructions to him, as near was watching him. Light understood that he was intelligent enough to make decisions in favor of kira. He couldn't control him directly but his will was mostly devoted to kira's work. You are right on the fact that he decided on his own in the name of kira when he "judged" people but he never took himself as kira, he said he was an instrument of kira, so he was kinda blinded by his admiration for his "god".

And you can't say Light wasn't at the mercy of Mikami because it was also Mikami's fault for taking out the Note at the wrong time. In the end Mikami was the deciding factor; you just can't deny that.

I don't deny that, from the beggining i'm saying it's mikami's fault! xD
But saying he was at the mercy of mikami would mean that mikami was in control of Light although mikami did all the things according to plan and was still faithfull to kira (until the very end). Mikami could have written the name of Yagami and be kira at his place but he didn't. And Light knew that he wouldn't do that, so for me Light was in total control of Mikami. He just didn't think that Mikami would panic and go to the bank to mess all the plan.

Near didn't physically do anything, but he was obviously the brains behind the operation. And that is by far the most important role. Light lost to Near and the others who opposed Kira.

Yeah, i didn't say Near did nothing, i just said he didn't move his ass xD
He just took a risk at the end. Ryuuzaki was suspecting Light and yet he decided to go on the field, so that's why i don't like the Near character :^p

By the way, I do agree with you on saying that Light lost to luck. Luck was a huge factor, and just further proves my point in saying that Light isn't god, because he wasn't all-powerful. He had weaknesses.

Yes he surely wasn't a god. Too cocky, too confident. That's why Ryuuku enjoyed the show :^)

[Whitebeard]

Yes, Mikami had to decide on his own, but it's because Light couldn't send proper instructions to him, as near was watching him. Light understood that he was intelligent enough to make decisions in favor of kira. He couldn't control him directly but his will was mostly devoted to kira's work. You are right on the fact that he decided on his own in the name of kira when he "judged" people but he never took himself as kira, he said he was an instrument of kira, so he was kinda blinded by his admiration for his "god".

But it was he who decided to admire "god". Light didn't force him to join the party. So it was his will that was following Kira, and his will that helped Kira in time of need. Kira needed someone like Mikami. And it was Mikami's choice to help him and he retained his own right to make decisions; it was his decision to take out the notebook at the precise moment. Yes he was an instrument for god, but he did everything according to his own will with his own decisions, especially considering that Light trusted him to make the right decisions in the end.

I don't deny that, from the beggining i'm saying it's mikami's fault! xD
But saying he was at the mercy of mikami would mean that mikami was in control of Light although mikami did all the things according to plan and was still faithfull to kira (until the very end). Mikami could have written the name of Yagami and be kira at his place but he didn't. And Light knew that he wouldn't do that, so for me Light was in total control of Mikami. He just didn't think that Mikami would panic and go to the bank to mess all the plan.

When I say Light was at the mercy of Mikami I didn't mean it was Mikami's choice to kill him or not. I meant it was up to whether or not Mikami made an error in his decisions or actions. I didn't mean mercy in terms of "master" and "pawn". I meant in that Light's success for the first time depends on the competency of someone else.

[aaaarrrggh]

What's up with the bold thing? Oo

When I say Light was at the mercy of Mikami I didn't mean it was Mikami's choice to kill him or not. I meant it was up to whether or not Mikami made an error in his decisions or actions. I didn't mean mercy in terms of "master" and "pawn". I meant in that Light's success for the first time depends on the competency of someone else.

If you're thinking that way, then you could also say the same thing with misa and Takada. If anyone one of them screwed up at crucial time, they could have endangered Light's plan. He depended a lot on their competences too. It's not like be at their mercy, it's just about taking risks with your pawns.

But it was he who decided to admire "god". Light didn't force him to join the party. So it was his will that was following Kira, and his will that helped Kira in time of need. Kira needed someone like Mikami. And it was Mikami's choice to help him and he retained his own right to make decisions; it was his decision to take out the notebook at the precise moment. Yes he was an instrument for god, but he did everything according to his own will with his own decisions, especially considering that Light trusted him to make the right decisions in the end.

Light didn't force him but he chose him anyway to be his pawn, he could have pick someone else.
And Misa also decided on his own to help Light but you'll probably say love is a special cause..
What about Higuchi? he had his own opinion, made his own decisions but all has been anticipated by Light. So in my opinion it's not like Light trusted mikami in the end, he just knew that he would make the right decision because he's just a puppet like Higuchi.
Takada too had to make her own decisions when Mello messed around. She chose to sacrifice herself for kira. If she surrendered it could have ruined Light's plan. It was up to her too. Oh is it love? lol

[mgsplayer]

aaarrgh...you didn't leave me anything to say

[Whitebeard]

What's up with the bold thing? Oo

If you're thinking that way, then you could also say the same thing with misa and Takada. If anyone one of them screwed up at crucial time, they could have endangered Light's plan. He depended a lot on their competences too. It's not like be at their mercy, it's just about taking risks with your pawns.

But misa and Takada were told exactly what to do. They were true puppets. You obviously don't get the whole will thing. Its when you are making your own decisions. Takada was told what to do in case she was kidnapped. Misa was told what to do. Mikami obviously did something on his own will, thus leading to Kira's fall. If any of the other puppets screwed up, it was directly because of Light's planning, seeing as how they only carried out his orders. It was Mikami who decided to act on his own in the end. So clearly there is a difference.

And Misa also decided on his own to help Light but you'll probably say love is a special cause..

No. Read my answer right above this quote.

What about Higuchi? he had his own opinion, made his own decisions but all has been anticipated by Light. So in my opinion it's not like Light trusted mikami in the end, he just knew that he would make the right decision because he's just a puppet like Higuchi.
Takada too had to make her own decisions when Mello messed around. She chose to sacrifice herself for kira. If she surrendered it could have ruined Light's plan. It was up to her too. Oh is it love? lol

Read what I said above about Takada, I already answered that. Higuchi wasn't even on Light's side "OH LOL". Nice one.

P.S. I'm tired of arguing, we're obviously not going to convince each other. I'm done.