The possible truth behind the Dead Demon seal
This is just about enough of a theory that I thought it best to put it in the Theories board instead of the main board. Recently, I've been re-reading some of the manga, and was startled by the top left panel of this:
Tobi says the Sage of the Six Paths created a sealing jutsu that has been passed down, with which he sealed the Jyuubi.
Sounds simple enough, but could that have been the same seal that was used to seal the Kyuubi into Naruto? Here's my reasoning.
As we know, the Dead Demon seal allows its user to seal something either into oneself or into someone else, but the user must pay the price with his soul.
The Dead Demon seal responsible for creating Naruto's seal, after a little tweaking, became what the Kyuubi acknowledged was the Sage's sealing jutsu:
Could the Dead Demon seal be a rudimentary version of that original sealing jutsu? When performed by someone who isn't the sage, it maybe that the user's soul has to be eaten, but what it might mean to perform it while possessing the Rinnegan. Quite frankly, I'm not even convinced the Death God summoned by the jutsu is even a living being. It seems to me to be more of an alternate dimension, one where, as its users claim, the sealed and the sealer will battle for all eternity. The Sage could have turned this dimension into the means by which he harnessed the Jyuubi's endless power.
If the Death God is actually the opening to a dimension, a number of possibilities open up. A new Rinnegan user (likely Naruto or Sasuke, I suppose) could open that dimension without dying, allowing for such things as:
-the restoration of the Kyuubi's power
-the freeing of the previous Hokages
-some badass battles involving the above
It just wouldn't make sense to have the Death God eat them up, but never poop them out, AMIRITE??
This is, by no means, a complete theory, and my pressing need to go to the bathroom prevents me from adding more right now, but it's something I'd like all your great minds to discuss.
This might shed some light:
I am not perfect and I defy you to prove otherwise
Growing Old Gracefully is an Oxymoron ... Mostly Moron !
I had seen the same thing and figured there might have been two seals performed, and having re-read that chapter just now, it certainly makes sense, but then I remembered how the Dead Demon seal was responsible for this:
That's right after the Third sealed the First and Second with the Dead Demon seal, and the markings on his chest are the same as the one on Naruto. I suppose he, too, may have performed the Eight Trigrams seal on them as well, but if that were all it took, he wouldn't have needed to use the Dead Demon seal at all.
Like I said, the theory was far from complete, and that page seems to negate the possibility that the Dead Demon seal is the Sage's ultimate sealing technique.
(EDIT: After re-reading that chapter with the page you mentioned yet again, it looks to me like the Eight Trigrams seal Minato performs is the seal made available to him by offering his soul to the Death God, which would keep this theory afloat, at least for now.)
I am still curious as to the nature of the Dead Demon seal, since practically every other seal in the manga can be broken with force. How can there be a so-called "eternal" seal? What would it take to break it?
Minato used the eight trigrams seal for the Kyuubi into naruto.
Also, the Death god isn't described as a dimension, its the god of death. If you seal someone's soul with the jutsu, you are eaten by the death god where your locked in combat with that person for eternity. It's probably a realm inside the death god's belly where you fight the same person and die, then fight them again and die, forever. Basically means that the 3rd hokage is fighting the first two hokage's and Orochimaru's arms lol.
Sorry, I guess the edit to my post happened after you posted yours. It looks to me like the Eight Trigrams seal is the seal permitted by giving the user's soul to the Death God. Look at how easily the Eight Trigrams seal ripped half the Kyuubi's chakra away. Do you mean to suggest Minato could have just done that without a huge sacrifice? Could the Third have just pulled the chakra of the First and Second into his clones without the deal with the Death God? If those ninja could have just performed such a seal by the power of their own chakra, the Dead Demon seal would have been unnecessary.
Originally Posted by mo916
I acknowledge that the Death God isn't described as a dimension, but Shuukaku wasn't described as the One Tailed Bijuu, or 1/10 of the Juubi, but we learned enough with time to understand more about it. Most unexplainable phenomena in this manga come to make some sort of logical sense with time.
Just like the pot that sealed the Kin/Gin brothers, just like the urn that held the One Tail, the Death God could be no more than a container of a dimension in which the sealed are, in fact, in endless battle.
Also, Oro's arms might poke someone in the eyes or something, so the Third had better watch out. lol
Your right about that pieces of information were developed as the serious went on, and it could be the same with the death god. The only reason i didn't agree with you at first is that, in order to see the death god, you have to touch it, and once it touches you, it will start to pull out your soul.
The dimension idea could work, its just it would be kinda tough to open it back up :/
the thing is, it isnt supposed to open back up, once you are caught, you are done for, you cant be summoned, revived and you cant be turned into an edo, everything that made you you, is simply gone from existance which is why i see it more as a symbiosis, with the demon dragging you into its dimension where you are trapped forever.
This manga has a running theme of making the impossible into the possible. The dead are brought back to life. A Hyuuga lost to a dropout. The Kyuubi made peace with his Jinchuuriki. Stuff that shouldn't happen under logical terms is made to happen because of the characters in the story. There's always the possibility that the inner workings of the Dead Demon seal become understood, and someone finds a way to wrench it open.
Originally Posted by almara
There has been some speculation in the past that the Dead Demon seal was the "that jutsu" Jiraiya taught Naruto in his two years. Naruto, as a Jinchuuriki, can't use it (for whatever reason, that's what Minato said), but Jiraiya had been insistent on teaching Naruto to harness the Kyuubi's power to its fullest. I don't really consider this speculation to be part of this theory since I can't back it up, but I am curious to know what you all think about the idea that the Dead Demon seal cannot be used by a Jinchuuriki.
thats because you look at it wrong, it wasnt a hyuga that lost to a dropout, it was a hyuga that lost to THE protagonist, it was the kyubi that made peace with the protagonist. the protagonists are always the exceptions that make the rule and the simple fact that there is no1 currently alive that can use it, pretty much rules it out, as they would need to know the seal from scratch AND then figure out a way to release the ppl inside, something that to my knowledge, not even the uzumakis were capable of and they were the experts. i would certainly not say that the manga has a running theme of making the impossible possible, there are certainly other things that would more precisely mentioned as a running theme such as the whole "the following generation being stronger than the previous" etc.
and as for the whole dead demon thing, it isnt an idea, its facts, so there would be absolutely no point in jiraiya trying to teach that seal to naruto since he wont be able to use it anyway.
I feel the same way as you do about the idea of Jiraiya teaching Naruto the Dead Demon seal, but it has been brought up, so I thought I'd mention it. Could Jiraiya really have seen so far ahead so as to think Naruto could master that jutsu? It may, however, be possible that someone, somewhere, still knows the Dead Demon seal. Perhaps it is a part of the Bijuus' knowledge that will be passed down to Naruto, but that is just speculation.
Originally Posted by almara
I will attempt to address all your points of contention against my idea.
You're looking at the Hyuuga vs. dropout example from a reader's perspective. Of course Naruto, as the protagonist, was the favourite among readers of the manga to win that fight. However, from the perspective of the actual characters, Neji was the shining light of the Hyuuga clan with genius combat intelligence, while Naruto was a dope who had trouble with just about everything. But thanks to his hidden power and perseverance, Naruto took the seemingly impossible prospect of victory again Neji, and made it possible.
Also, a manga can have more than one running theme. In fact, the idea of making the impossible possible is deeply tied into the theme of "the following generation being stronger than the previous". Minato, the genius Hokage, found it impossible to complete his Rasengan, but Naruto, of the next generation, made it possible with his Rasenshuriken. Chouji, the youngest of the Akimichi clan, surprised his elders by creating the effect of the red pill without eating it, something that shouldn't have been possible. One of the most common images in this late stage of the manga is the image of the elders looking at the younger generation with awe and wonder, as the younger generation continues to achieve and surpass all expectations. Perhaps what I meant by "making the impossible into the possible" is "making what others thought was impossible into the possible".
All that being said, there is a logical mechanism behind every jutsu in this manga. Every seal, except for the Dead Demon seal, has proven to be adjustable and breakable. Why should the Dead Demon seal be any different? The reasoning that "that's just what the Dead Demon seal is," doesn't sit with me. It's a possibility that the proper way to harness the Dead Demon seal, without sacrificing the soul, has been lost or forgotten, and a newly-revealed power like the Rinnegan may be the key to fully mastering the jutsu.
EDIT: I also forgot to note that on your point that the user of the seal would have to learn it from scratch, you should notice that Naruto transformed his early seal into the same one the Sage of the Six Paths used, despite not having that taught to him.