Food For Thought

**Kriebs** · 12-29-2011, 08:01 AM

Just saying this right now but these are NOT theories due to the fact I have little evidence, if any, to support them and therefore am just posting them as something interesting to think about/take into consideration and raise a few questions.

1) Uchiha Madara's Missing Eye's

First off when i talk about Madara i am referring to the Edo Tensei version not Tobi.

Now there are many questions that have been raised since Madara was resurrected; Who Tobi really is, How/When did Madara really die if not against the 1st Hokage (obviously knew of Nagato), ect.

But one i feel like is commonly not noticed is where are Madara's eyes? Are Madara's eyes (right now, as an Edo Tensei) really his original? Some will argue that they are since he can use his EMS as well as the Rinnegan. Remember though that it has been stated the resurrections can use all of their original abilities. (http://www.mangareader.net/naruto/520/13) (read next page too, says how they can still use sharingan/rinnegan)

Also compare and contrast Itachi and Madara: two http://www.mangareader.net/naruto/549/6 http://www.mangareader.net/naruto/560/2

Notice how both of their eyes are black? Itachi's eyes were obviously taken from him and given to Sauske, but i feel like the black eyes mean they are not the originals eyes for the Edo tensei, meaning that before Madara died he gave them away. My only guess would be that he gave them to Nagato somehow (considering he knew of Nagato), possibly implanting them into him when he was a baby. This would go along nicely with how when Tobi was confronting Konan he said they were his eyes in the first place (at this time he was still presumably Madara).

3) Multiple Rinnegans

I have read in other posts how people thought that the way that the Rinnegan is shared (between the 6-paths of Pain/Jinchurikis) is by the black rods. My thought/take on this though is that they are separate Rinnegan (just as the sharingans are separate (my 'proof' behind this is simply how Tobi had a wall of them))

One would only naturally then ask how Tobi had obtained multiple Rinnegan. This then seg-ways into how the Rinnegan is formed. I do not remember if this was stated anywhere (manga/forums/ect) but here is my take on it.

4)Rinnegan Formation

It has now been stated that after the sharingan one obtains the rinnegan (yes Sharingan; it is never stated that you must awaken the Mangekyou or the EMS to progress to the Rinnegan http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/ch...0/page015.html).

My quick quirp on this is simply that to awaken the Rinnengan one must simply posses the eyes of the Uchiha and the physical powers of the Senju/Hashirama, in Nagato's case he was a distant relative and therefore possessed them as does Naruto (and yes theoretically if Naruto was given an transplant for whatever reason he may then obtain the Rinnegan; lord help us all if Kishi actually did that). Here it is stated that Madara absorbed some of Hashirama's power http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/ch...1/page012.html and on the next page he looks under his clothes, i only assume that its too see something that resembled Hashirama as such the case was with Danzou.

So going off of that is it not possible that Tobi simply obtained some of the Uzumaki clan (or even some other's possessing the physical powers of the So6P) and implanted them with Sharingan, waited until they awakened the Rinnegan, then killed/took eyes back? Possible he couldn't have gotten near Nagato because of Jiriya or forgot about him or whatever you wanna think up of or say.

5) Summoning Kyubi???

My understanding of the Summoning Jutsu was when one signed a contract with another life form (animals most of the time) and then were then able to summon them to their location right? http://www.mangareader.net/93-97-14/...hapter-92.html Simple enough. But then what about the contract that is needed to sign? I can't show proof that every single summoning needs a contract but to everything we've been shown about it it does. (http://www.mangareader.net/93-97-19/...hapter-92.html)

My question is why is Madara able to summon the Kyubi. As shown here http://mangastream.com/read/naruto/23677185/11 Madara is clearly able to summon the Kyubi in the traditional sense (Hand-seals, put hand on ground (unless you are mid-flight Gai), then *poof*)

My only thought to this is that at a very early time Madara did make a contract with the Kyubi and when he learned that Madara had evil intentions with him he resisted to go along with the plans, thus forcing Madara to use the sharingan on him. This is almost an "the Kyubi is actually a good guy instead of a raging beast" thought.

As i said earlier i do not feel like these are theories for i do have little evidence to back them up and they are just my own thoughts on what may be/ect. Of course debate is welcome as well as your own takes on the subjects. Let the flaming commence.

**Gaara Kazekage** · 12-29-2011, 11:55 AM

Tobi didn't have a wall of Rinnegan's, it was Sharingan's.

**Rlinfamous** · 12-29-2011, 05:39 PM

1. Edo Madara's eyes are his original eyes... Edo'd. Just as Edo Nagato's are those exact same eyes (given to him in life by Madara), Edo'd. As for the REAL pair of the original Madara's eyes, they've been handed down to Nagato, and now to Tobi. It's important to remember that nothing about Edo Tensei's is "Real".. if Sasuke stole Edo Madara's eyes and transplanted them, they would turn to ash (or the pair of dead non-Sharingan eyes belong to the corpse used to revive Madara)... they're an illusion tied to the Edo Tensei jutsu using ash, a corpse, and Madara's soul.

My only question is what Tobi's plans are for the second Rinnegan, since we can only see the one he's transplanted into his left eye socket. But those are the only Rinnegan that have been achieved since the Rikudou, passed down from Madara to Nagato to Tobi.

2. I'm pretty sure that the Rinnegan "Shared" between the Paths (and their summons) are a result of the Rinnegan jutsu link, not a transplant. While you could debate the plausibility of transplanting Rinnegan into Paths, I can't imagine transplanting a GIANT Rinnegan into a large summon. Where do you get a "Giant Three-headed-Dog"-sized Rinnegan that multiplies as the number of dog heads increase? If Tobi was able to make extra Rinnegan so easily, he wouldn't have had to fight to reach Nagato's corpse OR rely on Nagato for his plans in the first place.

3. The summoning contract with the Kyuubi was probably made after Madara had already enslaved it with his Sharingan. My reasoning for this is Tobi's use of the summoning jutsu after he had enslaved it... I doubt he could have summoned it prior to that, even if it was in Kushina. I don't think Tobi even existed prior to the Madara/Hashirama fight, and after Mito sealed the Kyuubi he'd never have had a chance to form a contract until the moment it was taken from Kushina.

Another possibility is that entering a "contract" with one's summon creatures (such as the one Naruto entered with the frogs) is actually a formality, and one can actually "capture" a summon creature (just like a Pokemon!). An example would be Sasuke's hawk summons... I don't even know if they're sentient, but I definitely don't think he cares enough to ask them to allow him to summon them.

**pratesh** · 12-30-2011, 02:05 PM

The eyes these Edo people have are their own and none else. To prove this point, consider Itachi's eyes. If it weren't his own one, then Shisui's just would not have activated. Thus it it clear that Itachi possesses his own eyes even in his Edo state.

There was a wall of sharingans(i believe it was 100 of them, will check)
http://www.mangareader.net/93-47008-...apter-482.html

I don't think there needs to be a contract, but rather some sort of agreement or control being exercised for the summons. Yes, normal summons require a contract, but we have also seen Naruto being summoned and reverse summoned without him making a contract to Paa or Maa toad. Also, about the mid flight summon, it was also done by Naruto when he first pulled out Bunta.

**aggeroff** · 12-30-2011, 03:12 PM

Originally Posted by pratesh

There was a wall of sharingans(i believe it was 100 of them, will check)
http://www.mangareader.net/93-47008-...apter-482.html

There are 104 shown, but there could be more off to the sides of the picture.

**Gaara Kazekage** · 12-30-2011, 03:12 PM

Originally Posted by pratesh

The eyes these Edo people have are their own and none else. To prove this point, consider Itachi's eyes. If it weren't his own one, then Shisui's just would not have activated. Thus it it clear that Itachi possesses his own eyes even in his Edo state.

There was a wall of sharingans(i believe it was 100 of them, will check)
http://www.mangareader.net/93-47008-...apter-482.html

I don't think there needs to be a contract, but rather some sort of agreement or control being exercised for the summons. Yes, normal summons require a contract, but we have also seen Naruto being summoned and reverse summoned without him making a contract to Paa or Maa toad. Also, about the mid flight summon, it was also done by Naruto when he first pulled out Bunta.

Naruto have a contract with the toads, he signed it when he was training on his summons with Jiraya. And as long as there is animals there needs to be a contract. For things I think you only need a seal with you and on the items, like Ten Ten.

**Shinhan** · 12-30-2011, 04:12 PM

Originally Posted by Gaara Kazekage

Naruto have a contract with the toads, he signed it when he was training on his summons with Jiraya. And as long as there is animals there needs to be a contract. For things I think you only need a seal with you and on the items, like Ten Ten.

Unless you are controlling the animals with a doujutusu of course.

**Rlinfamous** · 12-30-2011, 05:41 PM

Originally Posted by pratesh

The eyes these Edo people have are their own and none else. To prove this point, consider Itachi's eyes. If it weren't his own one, then Shisui's just would not have activated. Thus it it clear that Itachi possesses his own eyes even in his Edo state.

There was a wall of sharingans(i believe it was 100 of them, will check)
http://www.mangareader.net/93-47008-...apter-482.html

I don't think there needs to be a contract, but rather some sort of agreement or control being exercised for the summons. Yes, normal summons require a contract, but we have also seen Naruto being summoned and reverse summoned without him making a contract to Paa or Maa toad. Also, about the mid flight summon, it was also done by Naruto when he first pulled out Bunta.

Edo Tensei gave Edo Itachi a pair of eyes that are identical to the ones he had in life, but they are not the "same"... to say they are "Itachi's eyes and no one else's" is to overlook both the way Edo Tensei works (using a sacrificial body as a container for the soul) and the fact that Itachi's "real" Eyes are resting in Sasuke's eye sockets now, not remotely close to Edo Itachi. Are Edo Itachi's eyes similar enough to fool Shisui's eye? Of course, they're *identical* to Itachi's eyes in life. No one has ever suggested Itachi was somehow Edo'd with a different pair of Mangekyou, per say... the only thing you need to remember is that they are't "real" Mangekyou... once the Edo Tensei deactivates, those eyes will turn to ash or the eyes of a corpse, even while Itachi's *real* eyes are now EMS for Sasuke.

This applies elsewhere, as well... Edo Nagato was able to summon his old animals, even though he was dead and they were never actually killed. The seven swordsmen still had contracts with their swords and could summon them. In an odd way, this ties in the Edo Tensei discussion with the summoning contract discussion: contracts persist through death. Granted, we already knew Minato's contract with the toads was still intact, but I never really imagined the toads fighting for an Edo Minato if he were somehow able to be revived._

**Maximo** · 12-30-2011, 05:57 PM

Kyuubi summoning was most likely all forced out, just remember the flashback Kyuubi had last chapter for spoliers. I think its possible to force a contract on an animal if you have sharingan.