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  1. #51
    GAI SENSEI 4 HOKAGE bankai's Avatar
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    Jiraiya would have made itachi look like a chunin
    Spoiler!

  2. #52
    首はねスレイマン Saiges's Avatar
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    Itachi/Sharingan > Guy/movement (he has the body/speed to avoid/counter Guy). Also..Susano'o > 8 gates
    Power =/= achievement, just because Minato did more in life doesn't mean he's auto better than Itachi.
    Orochimaru and Jiraiya are pretty much equal. Itachi owned Oro at a very young age....
    Before I forget, Jiraiya fought 3 paths. Godrealm wasn't even there. As soon as the other 3 appeared it turned into a stomp.

    -Badass: Itachi.
    -Skill: Itachi.
    -Intelligence: Itachi.
    and so on...Only thing Jiraiya has is body/chakra superior to Itachi's.



    p.s from all the Edo tensei summoned, Kabuto said Itachi was on a whole different level. and he really is...
    __________________________________________


  3. #53
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    you seem to forget that itachi only fought 1 nagato and jiraiya fought 3 to 6 and then add the fact that jiraiya had no knowledge of nagato's power where as itachi had full knowledge of nagato's powers, and no matter how you twist it around, fight 3 is a hell of a lot harder than fighting 1 who was being controlled by kabuto, not to mention the fact that there were 2 other ppl there to divert the kabuto controlled nagato, so nagato wasnt even fighting at his full capacity. also with the 8 gates gai would be strong and fast enough to bypass both the sharingan(after all the raikage could bypass sasuke's sharingan by increasing his speed and the 8 gates match that speed easily) and susanoo quite easily. also jiraiya wasnt equal to orochimaru, he was quite superior, ofc ppl will say he was equal, but jiraiya NEVER fought oro with the intent to kill or when he wasnt poisoned. not saying itachi wasnt a badass, coz he is, jiraiya in my mind was a bigger one even if it was slightly, and minato was even bigger than that.

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by almara View Post
    wow, now you are being clueless, artifice. the battle jiraiya had with nagato, he went in knowing nothing about nagato's powers, as opposed to itachi, he was told nagato's powers by naruto AND he had naruto AND bee there for cannon fodder and that is why itachi had an easier time against nagato than jiraiya had not to mention jiraiya was fighting 6 ppl and not 1 alongside 2 others which in my opinion makes jiraiya greater than itachi.
    At what point does Naruto tell Itachi all of Nagato's powers? Back it up by showing me where this happens in the manga.
    http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/ch...1/page016.html
    The only thing Naruto tells him is that Nagato got him with Edo Tensei before and that if he gets you with it you are dead. Itachi is the one who figures out how to counter it, and he figures it out in about 1 second.

    Quote Originally Posted by almara View Post
    well, you are wrong about oro, he didnt care about itachi, all he wanted was his sharingan and ofc he wanted itachi and sasuke because they were the only known sharingan users of the time.
    Orochimaru was alive long before the Uchiha massacre; he wanted Itachi specifically because Itachi was the strongest. If it was just the sharingan he was after he had other options for getting it. Look at Danzou for example (who used Orochimaru's knowledge to transplant the Sharingans). Orochimaru didn't just want the sharingan, he wanted to obtain the highest quality of them.


    Quote Originally Posted by almara View Post
    as for tobi you are right and kinda wrong as well. tobi needed itachi for his revenge on the uchiha but any1 could have been used.
    Apparently you haven't read the manga. If it could have been anyone, Madara had obviously demonstrated the ability to control other powerful ninja. Itachi was the only one who could accomplish what he did.

    http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/ch...0/page008.html

    Itachi was the only one who even noticed Madara's presence.

    http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/ch...0/page008.html
    http://dl01.mangashare.com/manga/Naruto/221/005.jpg
    http://dl01.mangashare.com/manga/Naruto/222/011.jpg
    http://dl01.mangashare.com/manga/Naruto/223/017.jpg
    http://dl01.mangashare.com/manga/Naruto/552/004.jpg
    http://dl01.mangashare.com/manga/Naruto/540/014.jpg
    http://dl01.mangashare.com/manga/Naruto/552/013.jpg

    Itachi being special has been backed up in the Manga countless times. This shouldn't come as new information it is just common sense for anyone who has been following the manga. As the Instructor at the Ninja academy mentions he can't recall the last time they had such a genius at the academy, Orochimaru admits Itachi is stronger than him, Madara admits that Itachi never ceases to amaze him, Itachi is one of the only people Kisame respects, Danzo even respected Itachi, Kabuto states that Itachi is just too damn good, Killerbee says that Itachi isn't just another strong ninja. The list goes on and on. Everyone who has dealt with Itachi either fears him or respects his power immensely and it isn't just what we have heard, we have seen the evidence of his power as clear as day. Like I said, we have never seen Itachi truly challenged in combat, he beats every opponent he fights with apparent ease. Like him or hate him Itachi's power and skill is undeniably near the top. Like I have said many times, it's not rocket science, the evidence should really speak for itself at this point.


    Quote Originally Posted by almara View Post
    you are right, the sharingan is a tool, but for itachi and sasuke it is an exceedingly important tool, so much of their powers are deeply rooted in their sharingan where their other abilities pale in comparison and no, im not suggesting that we seperate characters from their bloodlines, im saying take those bloodlines into account and balnce that against another character's achievement without such bloodlines and possibly consider what that person without a doujutsu would have achieved with a doujutsu.
    Many of the most powerful characters in the series have bloodlines and of course they are going to use what nature gave them but that doesn't mean anything other than that they had a natural gift, what they do with that is different entirely. Look at Kakashi, he got the sharingan so he makes that a major part of his fighting style but his father was considered to be of Sannin calibur without it. If Kakashi hadn't gotten the sharingan he still probably could have become a ninja of great power but because he was given the sharingan he developed very differently. Naruto was genetically gifted with a high chakra level and he was given the Kyuubi, obviously those gifts give him an advantage that others didn't have but that doesn't mean he didn't have to work hard to develop a skill at using those powers.

    Quote Originally Posted by almara View Post
    well, i think minato is superior to itachi in every way, as he achieved more with less than itachi ever did. Also i would still argue that some1 like gai would easily defeat some1 like itachi because of gai's fighting style(able to fight itachi by taking his main strengths away, forcing him to fight gai the way he wants to fight and have the 8 gates to overpower him) which is one of the main reasons why i downgrade itachi compared to some1 like minato and jiraiya.
    This isn’t a debate who accomplished more with less, it is a debate about who is superior in battle. Saying Jiraiya is better because doesn’t have the sharingan is like saying Naruto and Sasuke are only stronger than Rock Lee because they have genetic gifts that he doesn’t. It’s irrelevant, the point is that they are more powerful.
    Quote Originally Posted by almara View Post
    you seem to forget that itachi only fought 1 nagato and jiraiya fought 3 to 6
    You keep saying this but it is an illagitamit argument. Naruto fought all Six boides of Nagato, yet when he fought Edo Tensei Nagato he was almost killed and needed to be saved by Itachi. Read what is stated in fact, Nagato divides his powers when he uses multiple bodies, meaning that as a result each body has a much smaller percentage of his power, with all of his powers in one body that body is much more powerful than any single body. As was made clear in the Manga, Nagato is able to use all of his power at a much higher level with them all in one body. Naruto was at a much higher level by the time he and Killerbee fought Nagato, yet they were about to lose if Itachi hadn't intervened.

    Quote Originally Posted by almara View Post
    and then add the fact that jiraiya had no knowledge of nagato's power where as itachi had full knowledge of nagato's powers,
    Show me in the manga where it says that Itachi had full knowledge of Nagato's powers? Like I said, Jiraiya did have a limited knowledge of the Rinnegan but he had personally trained Nagato, he knew him personally when he was a child and he had seen some of what the Rinnegan could do.

    Quote Originally Posted by almara View Post
    and no matter how you twist it around, fight 3 is a hell of a lot harder than fighting 1 who was being controlled by kabuto, not to mention the fact that there were 2 other ppl there to divert the kabuto controlled nagato, so nagato wasnt even fighting at his full capacity.
    Actually no, if that were true Naruto would have defeated Nagato himself easily. Like I said, Naruto fought the six path's of Pain before, and at a much lower level, he won (with help forsure) but regardless, this time he was far more powerful and had far more knowledge of Nagato's abilities, it didn't save him, Itachi did.

    http://dl01.mangashare.com/manga/Naruto/551/014.jpg

    Since you seem so intent on ignoring it, look here, Naruto says clearly that Nagato is using the techniques on a much higher level and much faster than before.

    Quote Originally Posted by almara View Post
    also with the 8 gates gai would be strong and fast enough to bypass both the sharingan

    You are proving my point for me almara. Itachi was able to keep up with the speed of Naruto and Killerbee (Naruto is faster than the Raikage, and Killerbee is stronger). So obviously Itachi doesn't simply rely of his sharingan for power, he is incredibly skilled even without it.


    Quote Originally Posted by almara View Post
    (after all the raikage could bypass sasuke's sharingan by increasing his speed and the 8 gates match that speed easily) and susanoo quite easily.
    Actually, the Raikage couldn't even handle a partially formed Susanoo. I really see no way that he would be able to handle a full powered Susanoo, especially with the sword and shield. Also, as we have seen Itachi is much faster than Sasuke was back then. Itachi dodged Killerbee's sword dance easily, Sasuke got owned by it. Again, that just goes further to prove that Itachi's skill is not simply a product of the sharingan.

    Quote Originally Posted by almara View Post
    also jiraiya wasnt equal to orochimaru, he was quite superior, ofc ppl will say he was equal, but jiraiya NEVER fought oro with the intent to kill or when he wasnt poisoned. not saying itachi wasnt a badass, coz he is, jiraiya in my mind was a bigger one even if it was slightly, and minato was even bigger than that.
    Provide some evidence or examples, in everything we have seen Jiraiya and Orochimaru seem close to equal. Orochimaru shows no apparent fear of Jiraiya and seems very confident when dealing with him, yet he admits he is weaker than Itachi. Where is it indicated that Jiraiya was stronger than Orochimaru? We don't know for a fact who was stronger but everything in the Manga seems to indicate that they were comparable in power. The only time we see them fight they are both mutally weakened and in that encounter Orochimaru seems to have the upperhand.

  5. #55
    Senior Member psukkar's Avatar
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    As I suspected the dialogue translated in chapter 144 is why of sturture wise but has the same meaning in the end.

    A person from another forum translated it properly and it reads like this. Chapter 144, page 8.

    Kisame - You could somehow win, but I couldn't stand up to such an opponent for more than a couple of minutes... It's on a completely different level.
    Itachi - Ah... Either (we) both (he says both/two, meaning him and Kisame) would die, or it would be a draw... The result wouldn't change even if we increased our numbers.
    Kisame - It was good that we found him at the ramen shop... And he has one of the Legendary Sannin as a lucky charm. That guy (Jiraiya) might be a fair match for the strongest Uchiha from Konoha and the Mist's strongest swordsman.
    Itachi - Hmm, even so... It's said that every strong man has a weakness...

    Here is the thread its work reading actually, its goes through numerous things in the manga that got mistrasnlated which became legends in forums. Like whats written on the toad srcoll what the other names are etc..
    http://www.narutobase.net/forums/sho...d.php?t=161132

    worth a look.
    Last edited by psukkar; 03-06-2012 at 11:31 AM.
    The Master's Legacy



    If a theory can't explain the mysteries of the past, it has little chance to explain the mysteries of the present and future.

  6. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by psukkar View Post
    As I suspected the dialogue translated in chapter 144 is why of sturture wise but has the same meaning in the end.

    A person from another forum translated it properly and it reads like this. Chapter 144, page 8.

    Kisame - You could somehow win, but I couldn't stand up to such an opponent for more than a couple of minutes... It's on a completely different level.
    Itachi - Ah... Either (we) both (he says both/two, meaning him and Kisame) would die, or it would be a draw... The result wouldn't change even if we increased our numbers.
    Kisame - It was good that we found him at the ramen shop... And he has one of the Legendary Sannin as a lucky charm. That guy (Jiraiya) might be a fair match for the strongest Uchiha from Konoha and the Mist's strongest swordsman.
    Itachi - Hmm, even so... It's said that every strong man has a weakness...

    Here is the thread its work reading actually, its goes through numerous things in the manga that got mistrasnlated which became legends in forums. Like whats written on the toad srcoll what the other names are etc..
    http://www.narutobase.net/forums/sho...d.php?t=161132

    worth a look.
    DEFINITELY WORTH A LOOK!!! Interesting...

    But I still say that equating Jiraiya to Orochimaru is a big mistake.
    They have different styles and different weaknesses.
    Jiraiya = Hedgehog
    Orochimaru = Cobra
    Itachi = Bird of Prey (Raven/Hawk/Secretary Bird)

    Hedge Hog vs Cobra = Hedgehog win
    Cobra vs Bird of Prey = Bird of Prey win
    Hedgehog vs Bird of Prey = ?
    I am an artist, and my medium is death. I'm about to create my masterpiece :s



    Fan of the Rasengan Doujutsu theory, even though it's dead. Although, he does have the special Uzumaki clan blood.

    Quote Originally Posted by thorofasgard13 View Post
    Because he's the hero the shinobi world deserves, but not the one it needs right now. So we'll hunt him because he can take it. Because he's not our hero. He's a silent guardian, a watchful protector. Naruto.

  7. #57
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    that is a simple and yet fitting way of describing it thor.

  8. #58
    Senior Member Zero's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by psukkar View Post
    As I suspected the dialogue translated in chapter 144 is why of sturture wise but has the same meaning in the end.

    A person from another forum translated it properly and it reads like this. Chapter 144, page 8.

    Kisame - You could somehow win, but I couldn't stand up to such an opponent for more than a couple of minutes... It's on a completely different level.
    Itachi - Ah... Either (we) both (he says both/two, meaning him and Kisame) would die, or it would be a draw... The result wouldn't change even if we increased our numbers.
    Kisame - It was good that we found him at the ramen shop... And he has one of the Legendary Sannin as a lucky charm. That guy (Jiraiya) might be a fair match for the strongest Uchiha from Konoha and the Mist's strongest swordsman.
    Itachi - Hmm, even so... It's said that every strong man has a weakness...

    Here is the thread its work reading actually, its goes through numerous things in the manga that got mistrasnlated which became legends in forums. Like whats written on the toad srcoll what the other names are etc..
    http://www.narutobase.net/forums/sho...d.php?t=161132

    worth a look.
    So they were referring to Kyubi, yes this makes sense now, since both Kisame and Itachi had means to hold against Kurama for a while, but winning against it might have been hard, even Nagato wouldn't be able to win solo (still shouldn't Itachi's MS allow him to control Kyubi ? It still looks like Itachi lied here a little). But wait, doesn't this makes Hashirama even more over powered now, since both Kisame and Itachi said that they couldn't take Half of Kyubi on, when the 1st beat a whole Kurama paired with Madara !?

    BTW. A thread like that (from your link) was needed since long ago, it really clears up many things (if it's done properly that is ;P). Perhaps we should ask him/her if we can make a copy of it on this forum, to spread the truth even more .



  9. #59
    Appearance of Darkness Aga bomBa's Avatar
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    That link is EPIC! had to say it.. and Itachi never told anyone of Akatsuki the truth he knows better then that..

    The thing is: Hashirama could use Mokotun for not getting burned by Amatarasu, check. Hashirama could use Mokuton for fighting against Susanoo, check.

    BUT WHAT AGAINST A GENJUTSU of Itachi's calibur?? Was Madara's T-Yomi not from the same level of Itachi's ??
    ... You're Dead 2 Me Now ...

  10. #60
    Senior Member psukkar's Avatar
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    Yep I knew ppl would find it intresting.


    Lucky not all my hard work ages wasnt totally wasted. The kisame part stays the same but the itachi part needs to be redone. Things have changed as itachi never said he wouldnt beable to take on jiraiya or could. I guess my final conclusion of itachi was right in the end that itachi did understand what he would be getting into by picking a fight with jiraiya.

    I always knew the Anime translation back then was far better then manga at the time. good thing i stuck to my guns.


    Either case I will pm that guy at narutobase to post here too, i found it to be a fantastic thread.


    Quote Originally Posted by Zero View Post
    So they were referring to Kyubi, yes this makes sense now, since both Kisame and Itachi had means to hold against Kurama for a while, but winning against it might have been hard, even Nagato wouldn't be able to win solo (still shouldn't Itachi's MS allow him to control Kyubi ? It still looks like Itachi lied here a little). But wait, doesn't this makes Hashirama even more over powered now, since both Kisame and Itachi said that they couldn't take Half of Kyubi on, when the 1st beat a whole Kurama paired with Madara !?

    BTW. A thread like that (from your link) was needed since long ago, it really clears up many things (if it's done properly that is ;P). Perhaps we should ask him/her if we can make a copy of it on this forum, to spread the truth even more .
    yea I nagato gave it a real go, shame he wasted alot of chakra wiping out konoha before naruto arrived, would been intresting to see how much longer nagato could have continued fighting the fox.
    Last edited by psukkar; 03-08-2012 at 04:24 AM.

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