The truth about Tobi

[psukkar]

For sure Tobi is a creation of Madara.

We have seen plenty of evidence that he is at least in part a Zetsu. I would say that Tobi is a Zetsu Clone that Mimicked/Copied Madara's Chakra, AND Was infused with Madara's Chakra and Mental energy.


Madara was about to die, and If you are a Megalomaniac like Madara, who can you trust to revive you from death other than yourself? Madara died but his will, his mind, and his chakra continued to live through Tobi. This is the reason the other Zetsu Clones all obey Tobi.

The interesting question/Irony now is whether Madara's personality, which recognized no one above himself, will allow Tobi to submit to the original Madara?

This begining to sound like Artiftcal intellengence the movie when the kid realises hes just clone. I like this theory as madara still would be calling the shots at the end of the day. And I belive this manga needs a hardcore villain otherwise its all for nothing.

[ArmChairANBU]

Tobi's true identity...

Could it be Uchiha Shisui.

Now as per the manga he is currently dead however...

If Tobi turned out to be a random ninja who had never appeared before then that would be a major fail for the story, but we actually know alot about Shisui.

1) His sharingan powers were said to be at least equal to that of Itachi's and when it came to genjutsu he was clearly superior.

2) Itachi said that Shisui was a "good guy" but it is possible that he got his genjutsu claws into Itachi as well.

3) Shisui was the ninja in the Uchiha clan that was willing to do any mission for the clan for eg. taking control of the 4th Mizukage and causing a bloody civil war in the hidden mist village.

This types of missions could also have made him completly cynical and Danzo-like but only caring about himself and not any village.

4) Shisui's right sharigan eye and arm were taken by Danzo, is it a coincidence that Tobi has only one sharingan eye and a detachable arm (see fight versus Fu and Torune).

5) Shisui's genjutsu kotoamatsukami can control a person without them realizing it, having such a megalomaniacal power means that shisui is a good candidate for ultimate villain.He is probably a refererence to the elder son of the SoT6P who belived that power is all.

6) One problem is that Shisui gave his other eye to Itachi before "vanishing all traces of himself", I belive that this was his plan all along (as shown after the battle with Danzo he has lot of sharingans at his disposal). He played on Itachis's feelings just the way the top brass of Konoha did so that Itachi wouldn't look to deeply into his "vanishing" thinking him to be a loyal konoha ninja.

I feel that he faked his 'death' was basically to give him the freedom to roam around as Tobi.

I could be wrong but I feel that the evidence points towards Shisui as no other Uchiha has been given enough story time to make them a credible Tobi

[almara]

this why would shisui give itachi an EMS eye with a genjutsu inprinted in it to protect konoha, as it was only shisui that could do it that wouldnt make much choice. personally i think it is that older son of the SO6P atm, it would certainly explain why he knew about the juubi when no other did, having been raised with the stories about his father's exploits.

[StareIntoMySharingan]

how i would love to either see a flashback of shisui, or an edo shisui, to see his in action! but tobi being shisui would be wack!

[paulbee]

@ArmChairANBU


I must disagree with this Theory because You have provided no actual Evidence that Shisui is Tobi, and you contradicted your own points:

For example Point (4) contradicted by point (6)

4...." Shisui's right sharigan eye and arm were taken by Danzo, is it a coincidence that Tobi has only one sharingan eye and a detachable arm (see fight versus Fu and Torune). "

6...." One problem is that Shisui gave his other eye to Itachi before "vanishing all traces of himself"

Question: Why bother Using Tobi's one eye as evidence that he is Shisui, if you're going to show that Shisui ended up eyeless, and not one eyed.

Besides, Tobi has and always had TWO eyes, not one.

Spoiler!

The Whole eye thing didn't illustrate anything, or serve as evidence for anything.

Again, If Tobi is Shisui, why would he give up the most powerful Genjutsu eyes in all Uchiha, only to replace them with inferior eyes from an eye Bank?

Again, Saying That All traces of Shisui Vanished is False. For one thing, The Uchiha elders knew he drowned, therefore they had a drowned body. And again, Danzo retrieved his eye and his arm. You can't get an arm from someone who vanished. If Kabuto couldn't find Shisui's body, it is because Danzo's Root had it last, and probably disposed of the remains.


Also, Tobi has 2 detachable arms, not one. Both his arms are detachable.

Left arm detaches here:

Spoiler!

Right arm Detaches here:

Spoiler!

In order to have a good theory on Tobi, you have to take his detachable parts into consideration, and demonstrate why he claims to be Madara, and why his goals are identical to Madara's.

[lunchroomclassic]

I still think Tobi has to either be at least some form of Madara (he is capable of summoning the Kyuubi just as Edo Madara is), or the SO6P oldest son.

I have no reason as to why it could be the latter, but one theory I have is the SO6P elder son somehow sealed himself within the Uchiha stone tablet (possibly to wait out his brother's time as his father's Successor), and once Madara unlocked the Rinnegan and was capable of reading the last part of the tablet, he was able to release the seal. I have no manga proof at all, just a theory I'm satisfied with.

[ArmChairANBU]

@ArmChairANBU


I must disagree with this Theory because You have provided no actual Evidence that Shisui is Tobi, and you contradicted your own points:

For example Point (4) contradicted by point (6)

4...." Shisui's right sharigan eye and arm were taken by Danzo, is it a coincidence that Tobi has only one sharingan eye and a detachable arm (see fight versus Fu and Torune). "

6...." One problem is that Shisui gave his other eye to Itachi before "vanishing all traces of himself"

Question: Why bother Using Tobi's one eye as evidence that he is Shisui, if you're going to show that Shisui ended up eyeless, and not one eyed.

Besides, Tobi has and always had TWO eyes, not one.

Spoiler!

The Whole eye thing didn't illustrate anything, or serve as evidence for anything.

Again, If Tobi is Shisui, why would he give up the most powerful Genjutsu eyes in all Uchiha, only to replace them with inferior eyes from an eye Bank?

Again, Saying That All traces of Shisui Vanished is False. For one thing, The Uchiha elders knew he drowned, therefore they had a drowned body. And again, Danzo retrieved his eye and his arm. You can't get an arm from someone who vanished. If Kabuto couldn't find Shisui's body, it is because Danzo's Root had it last, and probably disposed of the remains.


Also, Tobi has 2 detachable arms, not one. Both his arms are detachable.

Left arm detaches here:

Spoiler!

Right arm Detaches here:

Spoiler!

In order to have a good theory on Tobi, you have to take his detachable parts into consideration, and demonstrate why he claims to be Madara, and why his goals are identical to Madara's.

Wow Paul,

Hadn't thought of it like that...looks like i need to read (study) the manga more LOL

Uchiha Izuna (Madara's brother) might be a good bet i suppose. Anyway whoever it is hopefully the epic reveal isn't too many weeks away

Lunchroomclassic : Re the SO6P's oldest son wouldn't he be around a few hundred years+ old , I mean Oonoki himself is probaly around 100 years old.

[Kenny Bones]

The thing is, did Madara survive the battle with Hashirama or not? Then why does Edo Madara look all young and fresh? I believe life/body is Yang chakra. And Tobi is the remains of Madara splitting his Yin and Yang chakra, leaving Tobi with the mind of Madara, in either the remains of the original body, or with repaired Zetsu parts. Or even completely Zetsu.

Did Madara actually somehow die after the battle after all? De he use Izanagi to rewind death even as early as during their fight? Cause this is where is all might fall over, if you need both sons of so6p DNA to perform Izanagi, he couldn't have done it to cheat death at that time.

But Tobi said to Konan that the so6p combined the jin(mind) and Yang(life) to create life from nothingness. But that was to create actual life. Madara could have used an incomplete form Izanagi to cheat death. Think about it, he would only need to manipulate reality, not creating life. Leaving him helpless and crippled, reduced eye powers, probably lost one due to the Izanagi. And then became Tobi, a shell of Madara's former self. So he crawled to his hideout, started working on the Hashirama tree, repaired himself, thus getting Senju's dna. Met with Itachi and took loads of eyes from the massacre, used those eyes for himself and then used Izanagi to create Zetsu. But is Tobi Madara's actual remains or a Zetsu? Doesn't really matter, he's still only half of Madara.

[paulbee]

@Kenny,

You are asking some really good questions, and I have also been thinking along similar lines. Here are my current thoughts.


1) Before the Battle with Hashirama Madara had Created/prepared a plantlike proto-Zetsu( The Black Zetsu, perhaps?), that only Lacked Hashirama's DNA to become a (White) Zetsu.
2) Madara Split a part of HIS CHAKRA, part of his soul, and his mental energy inside his EMS Sharingans.
3) Madara arranged for the Proto-Zetsu (Black Zetsu?), to recieve or take his (Madara's) Sharingans, Along with Hashirama's DNA.
4) Madara's Body then Died at the Battle with Hashirama at VOTE
5) Hashirama's DNA + Black Zetsu = White Zetsu
6) A White Zetsu was Given Madara's Sharingan , thereby getting his CHAKRA, and his mental energy.

7)White Zetsu Madara Awoke the Rinnegan inside (the original TOBI), but then his Chakra started to fade, being taxed by the Rinnegan or GM.
8) Madara Realized he Needed an Uzumaki (probably started the war to destroty the Uzumaki village) to awaken the Rinnegan again, Gather the Tailed Beasts, Recreate the Juubi, Revive Madara INTO:

a) TOBI's Body: Tobi's Body is already infused with Hashirama's Cells, all it lacks are The Juubi's Chakra.

(OR)

b) The Clone of Hashirama we saw at the Base of Geddou Mazou...This Clone in that Case would recieve the Juubi's Chakra and Madra's Soul.

9) Madara finally died when his remaining chakra Faded away from using the Rinnegan or using GM.


10) Tobi is Not complete (says he wants to be complete), because he is Madara's Mental energy, lacking his soul, or his Chakra. Tobi is No One (says he is no one), because he used to posses Madara's Chakra and part of his soul, but now he's just got his memories and mental energy.

[Kenny Bones]

Yeah I agree, something along these lines must be the case. I've even taken notice to Tobi's eye(s) and especially the shape of his eye and the lines under them. Looks a lot like Madara if you ask me.. I do believe he is the remains of Madara and not Shisui, Obito, elder son or Izuna.

I was thinking yesterday about this, why Edo Madara looks so young. And Kabuto did say he altered the body he was revived in. And revived him at his "prime". Could Kabuto have revived Madara into a younger, hashirama enchanced body? Notice Edo Madara looking under his shirt? What he saw was probably hashirama parts somehow. So he knew he could pull off Mokuton, which he happened to mention that he wanted to "try out". This indicated that he never used Mokuton before his actual death. But he did meet and know Nagato..

This means, Madara survived his battle with Hashirama somehow. These are the points that needs more info, HOW he survived. We saw him with swords in him, after the battle. How can anyone survive that? Unless he actually did prepare Black Zetsu before entering the battle as you say. Haha, or he COULD actually have used genjutsu on Hashirama, making it LOOK like he died. This might be the most logical thing to do actually. He entered the battle KNOWING he needed Hashirama's DNA. This means he probably did experiment on DNA before the battle. How did he know he needed Hashirama's DNA?

Well, as somebody pointed out earlier somewhere, Hashirama could do the mokuton, but how? Turns out Mokuton is the combination of Water+Earth+Light, meaning, Mokuton is creating life in a smaller scale. Notice how Naruto's chacra cloak reacts to Yamato's mokuton? I reckon Madara noticed this as well during their first battle, which he lost.

So, he started wondering and started doing research on the sons of the 6 paths, with the Uchiha tablet as main source.

Anyway, he fought Hashirama again, knowing he needed his DNA and somehow survived the battle. He obviously lost a lot of his powers after the battle, meaning he must have used some sort of strong genjutsu or Izanagi or something to survive. So he then crawled back to his hideout, started experimenting on the hashirama tree, lived therefore longer to meet Itachi (and Nagato), had Itachi kill the clan to get the Sharingans so he could perform Izanagi multiple times without risking loosing his own eyes (if he even had sharingan eyes after his battle with Hashirama).

And THEN he created Zetsu first as an experiment to see if he could get both Uchiha and Senju DNA into one being. A plant being nevertheless. And then he used Izanagi or creation of all things to actually breath life into it. He was it was working and devised. a plan.

He somehow awakened the rinnegan sometime after injecting Hashirama cells into his own body, read the tablet again, found out everything he knows about the abilities of the rinnegan. But knew at that point that he was too old and fragile. So he found Nagato, created Tobi and then right before his actual death he split his Yin chacra into Tobi, used creation of all things and gave Tobi life and the mind of his own.

This for himself must have been experienced like he died at that moment and immediatly "woke up" inside Tobi. Then he took out the eyes of his own real dead body and somehow gave those to Nagato.

Any real flaws here? This theory feels good man