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  1. #21
    Senior Member Gaara Kazekage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lunchroomclassic View Post
    All hax jutsus aside, if Madara really did survive the fight with Hashirama, it isn't too farfetched to believe that he was able to live long enough to actually meet Nagato. Remember, Tsuchikage is old enough to have at least done battle with the REAL Madara, not a controlled Mizukage, not Tobi, but the actual living breathing Madara that fought Hashirama.
    ??? The first thing he does after he gets out of the coffin is to mention Nagato, ofc he survived the fight with Hashirama.


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  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaara Kazekage View Post
    ??? The first thing he does after he gets out of the coffin is to mention Nagato, ofc he survived the fight with Hashirama.
    Haha yeah I was just trying to make sure I cover MOST of the basis before writing my half assed theory.


    I'm still trying to work out why madara was Edo'd looking young again.

    One possibility I have come up with: Nagato also has some type of jutsu that restores/rejuvenates organisms in proportion to how much chakra is used for the jutsu. We know Tsunade has that jutsu that helps her look young, and that the Uzumaki's in general are capable of high powered sealing jutsus. We've also witnessed Huugo return back to a youth-like state after he regenerated himself from suffering that blow from the Raikage. All jutsus/techniques in the shinobi world were made possible through the Rikudou's teachings of ninjutsu, so being that shinobi are in the first place capable of such feats should also mean that a shinobi that is capable of wielding the Rinnegan is capable of performing all things under the sun in terms of what is possible in the shinobi world.

    This technique may be an Uzumaki sealing jutsu, or more simply, might be well within the capabilities of Rinnei Tensei ( http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Outer_P...Life_Technique ) . Nagato could have used enough chakra to pump enough life force into the aging Madara to make him young again. Also, based on Naruto Chapter 449, it seems as though time does not govern the use of this Rinnegan technique but rather Chakra does, so Nagato would have had no problem reviving Madara "years" after his death.

    http://www.mangareader.net/93-57473-...apter-510.html

    I think Tobi really is explaining to us his existence in these panels. The Rikudou's line split into the Uchiha and the Senju, with the Uchiha an affinity for Yin-release, and Senju an affinity for Yang-release. These are the two necessary ingredients in using Izanagi and how the tailed beasts came into existence (they were split into 9 different chakra masses from the same source using Yin energy, and by using Yang energy they gained life, or the ability to act on their own), and during the fight with Hashirama, Madara was able to steal the first's DNA, or literally a source for the first's "Yang energies". Madara could have used the eight trigrams seal to split his Yin and Yang energies, used the Yin energy of the original Madara to create a container (tobi), then used Hashirama's Yang-energy to give the container life. Then, with the remaining yang energy Nagato restored Madara to his youth and used Human Path to devour him only to be revived again by Nagato later. This might also be how Tobi is capable of using both Sharingan and Rinnegan without any real difficulty.

    Izanagi might be the key after all, not the watered down Uchiha version, but a Rinnegan Izanagi.

  3. #23
    Senior Member Gaara Kazekage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lunchroomclassic View Post
    Haha yeah I was just trying to make sure I cover MOST of the basis before writing my half assed theory.


    I'm still trying to work out why madara was Edo'd looking young again.

    One possibility I have come up with: Nagato also has some type of jutsu that restores/rejuvenates organisms in proportion to how much chakra is used for the jutsu. We know Tsunade has that jutsu that helps her look young, and that the Uzumaki's in general are capable of high powered sealing jutsus. We've also witnessed Huugo return back to a youth-like state after he regenerated himself from suffering that blow from the Raikage. All jutsus/techniques in the shinobi world were made possible through the Rikudou's teachings of ninjutsu, so being that shinobi are in the first place capable of such feats should also mean that a shinobi that is capable of wielding the Rinnegan is capable of performing all things under the sun in terms of what is possible in the shinobi world.

    This technique may be an Uzumaki sealing jutsu, or more simply, might be well within the capabilities of Rinnei Tensei ( http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Outer_P...Life_Technique ) . Nagato could have used enough chakra to pump enough life force into the aging Madara to make him young again. Also, based on Naruto Chapter 449, it seems as though time does not govern the use of this Rinnegan technique but rather Chakra does, so Nagato would have had no problem reviving Madara "years" after his death.

    http://www.mangareader.net/93-57473-...apter-510.html

    I think Tobi really is explaining to us his existence in these panels. The Rikudou's line split into the Uchiha and the Senju, with the Uchiha an affinity for Yin-release, and Senju an affinity for Yang-release. These are the two necessary ingredients in using Izanagi and how the tailed beasts came into existence (they were split into 9 different chakra masses from the same source using Yin energy, and by using Yang energy they gained life, or the ability to act on their own), and during the fight with Hashirama, Madara was able to steal the first's DNA, or literally a source for the first's "Yang energies". Madara could have used the eight trigrams seal to split his Yin and Yang energies, used the Yin energy of the original Madara to create a container (tobi), then used Hashirama's Yang-energy to give the container life. Then, with the remaining yang energy Nagato restored Madara to his youth and used Human Path to devour him only to be revived again by Nagato later. This might also be how Tobi is capable of using both Sharingan and Rinnegan without any real difficulty.

    Izanagi might be the key after all, not the watered down Uchiha version, but a Rinnegan Izanagi.
    Read the Naruto.Wikia link again, when it says there's a time limit, it's right. That's why Nagato didn't resurrect Jiraiya or Yahiko for that matter, and i's pretty clear that Madara died before Yahiko.

    Jugo turned young because he regenerated Sasuke not himself. And the only reason he could was because he already knew that Sasuke was viable due to him being able to use the curse mark. And it was during the fight with Killer Bee. Then he grew older again when absorbing a Samurai after the fight with the Fourth Raikage.

    The reason Madara look so young is because he have Hashirama's cells, and that enables him to live a long life. What Tsunade does only makes her look young, and she needs to keep it active at all time, when she heals everyone during the Pain invasion she looses it's since she needs the chakra to heal. I highly doubt Madara would redo this as he came out of the coffin, and Madara is most likely as young in the body he looks, unlike Tsunade which does actually look younger than her body are.

    Like Senju Uzumaki's are blessed with a long life, even longer than Senju, or so it would seem. But Madara isn't Uzumaki, so I don't see what this got to do with him, and if you think of Nagato in terms of having something to do with it he didn't know/talk to the real Madara, only Tobi, at least not after or during his training with Jiraiya, and most then have met him before that.


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  4. #24
    Senior Member paulbee's Avatar
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    Lunchroomclassic, What I am trying to say is that there are 2 different Izanagis.

    1) First type performed by SO6P requires the Rinnegan, and YES it can create Two seperate Madaras.

    2) Second type, performed by Danzo and Tobi, requires sacrifice of a Sharingan (if you are Uchiha), or for a non Uchiha it requires a stolen Sharingan plus Senju stamina. It cannot create 2 Madaras. It can only change the apparent fate/death of a User into a dream, so that the User continues to survive with his SAME body.

    So what I am saying is that Even if Madara had used Izanagi when he fought the First Hokage, it would not have resulted in Splitting into 2 bodies, this method therefore could not have been how Tobi was created.

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  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by paulbee View Post
    Lunchroomclassic, What I am trying to say is that there are 2 different Izanagis.

    1) First type performed by SO6P requires the Rinnegan, and YES it can create Two seperate Madaras.

    2) Second type, performed by Danzo and Tobi, requires sacrifice of a Sharingan (if you are Uchiha), or for a non Uchiha it requires a stolen Sharingan plus Senju stamina. It cannot create 2 Madaras. It can only change the apparent fate/death of a User into a dream, so that the User continues to survive with his SAME body.

    So what I am saying is that Even if Madara had used Izanagi when he fought the First Hokage, it would not have resulted in Splitting into 2 bodies, this method therefore could not have been how Tobi was created.

    Yeah, I get that there are two versions. And if either was used to "split" Madara, it would of had to have been the SO6P version.

    Meh, I'll just wait 'til next week and stop thinking about it. I swear after last week's chapter Naruto has been ALL that's been on my mind.

  6. #26
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    Paul you're still hung up on the Muu splitting frames which I explicitly said to FORGET and IGNORE. Using the term splitting was a mistake given how close we are to that chapter, so I forgive you.

    When I say split, I mean SOUL-SPLIT, not physical splitting. If his soul were split, edo tensei would revive him at the point of his "death", or when he split. Which is why edo him looks so damn young.

  7. #27
    Senior Member paulbee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jdblaze85 View Post
    Paul you're still hung up on the Muu splitting frames which I explicitly said to FORGET and IGNORE. Using the term splitting was a mistake given how close we are to that chapter, so I forgive you.

    When I say split, I mean SOUL-SPLIT, not physical splitting. If his soul were split, edo tensei would revive him at the point of his "death", or when he split. Which is why edo him looks so damn young.
    Hey jdblaze85,

    First let me assure you that I like the innovative way you've looked at the Madara question, let me also say that I would not have responded if I hadn't thought it challenging and thoughtful.

    However jd, my inquisitive mind just can't see how Izanagi had anything to do with it.

    If Madara wanted to split his soul and imbue half into one of his eyes, he could do so anytime. Then pluck out the eye and step on it squishing it would have killed that half.

    The problem I have had is that introducing Izanagi, Misrepresented what Sharingan style Izanagi does. In your theory, there was a dead body?near dead body left on the battlefield. As I had pointed out, in Danzo's example, the body that "died" while using Izanagi ceased to exist. Another problem is we still have no explanation for Zetsu-like Tobidara, and we also have no explanation for knowledge about Nagato by the newly Edo-Tensei'ed Madara.

    I do hope I am not somehow misunderstanding your points, but frankly I think I should let up, since I've made my point. Afterall, this for fun, isn't it?
    Last edited by paulbee; 10-16-2011 at 03:20 PM.

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  8. #28
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    Paul, I've worked on this theory a little more since the latest chapter. You might call this an inception theory, because it's a theory inside of a theory. Hang on for the ride.

    Here goes:

    We learned of ONE, VERY IMPORTANT person using a splitting technique. The sage of the six paths.

    What? He didn't split Jd, you're mad!

    I believe he did split. I believe he split into.. *drumroll*

    Uchiha and Senju. How else would you have two "Descendants of the sage of the six paths" with two completely different (but complimentary) abilities?

    The so6p used izanagi on his deathbed to split his very essence of yin/yang chakra into two humans, aka, the two brothers.

    This explains why Hashirama and (naurto's kyuubi mode) are very light based. And why the uchiha powers (going blind, black flames, etc) are all darkness based.

    Perhaps the sage feared someone would take his eyes upon his death to become the next so6p, and thus split himself to prevent that from ever happening.

    Another thing to note is that the so6p is very key to this manga. Interesting to note that both sasuke and naruto's powers are progressing towards the sage himself. Which again, reinforces my theory that the uchiha and senju were not literal "sexual children" descendants but rather "chakra" descendants of the so6p. Literally, "Of him."

    Madara using Izanagi is now more likely than ever at the valley of the end, since he has Rinnegan - he wouldn't go blind.

    I'm sorry if this is all cluster-fcked, my mind is going a million miles a minute and I completely forgot the original reason I came here paul!

    That was to tell you, that Madara split himself just like the sage did!!!! The sage used Izanagi to create Uchiha and Senju. Madara split himself to create Tobi and maybe zetsu? Or, maybe just zetsu and tobi is a pawn of zetsu? I feel like zetsu has more importance than we're letting on here. Anyway, regardless that's what I believe happened. Firstly, sage splits forming the god-fathers of the two clans. Secondly, Madara splits himself because his mortal body was fatally wounded beyond repair and doing so would give him a shot at being resurrected.

    And blah blah blah, shell of a former self makes even more sense now. I hope my 1am rant wasn't too chaotic. Perhaps I will re-edit this tomorrow. Thanks for your considerations!

    PS. Paul, this is totally just for fun and I enjoy reading ALL your comments here and am honored you take the time to banter with me.

  9. #29
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    Also worthy to note that Tobi states, "I am two of the six paths in one person!" And then tells dead nagato that he is "The third path."

    Obviously not simply "Owning" the Rinnegan gives you the power of the so6p. There must be something Madara is missing, else, he would technically quantify as the so6p for simply having rinnegan power. Same goes for Nagato. We're missing a huge piece of the puzzle here. And I believe those pieces are Tobi, Nagato, and the other 3 paths that Tobi has yet to mention. Clearly to be all 6 paths in one person requires combination of uchiha and senju (dna). We've been assuming DNA because we are assuming Uchiha and Senju are sexual children of the sage. If my theory is correct and they are not, it would be the uchiha and senju chakra that are required for so6p powers. Uchiha Madara may have unlocked the rinnegan, but he is not/was not the so6p... yet.

    Had an "Aha!" moment. Madara assumed because he took Hashirama's DNA that he can "merge" with him and become the next so6p. However, if my theory is correct, this is where Madara was wrong. Madara needed to merge chakras with the senju, not just their DNA. I believe he KNOWS THIS TO BE TRUE, and thus started this whole series of events in motion to be resurrected with both uchiha and senju chakra thus making him the so6p reborn.

    Edit: Or perhaps not reborn as the so6p right away, but rather the Vessel to become the so6p. I believe he may have to merge with the 6 paths to become the "sage" of the six paths through some ritual.

    Second Edit after some sleep: Perhaps Madara did not split himself, but rather, created 6 "paths" like pain did, to use the powers of the so6p. Tobi is 2 paths in one, Nagato was the 3rd path, plus 3 others. Madara could have then used his god-path to have his soul sucked out and stored for later resurrection. Similar to kabuto's plan to do it to Bee and Naruto to obtain their biijuu. Perhaps, and this sounds crazy, but perhaps Tobi always had a rinnegan eye behind his mask because he was a path of Madara. IE, how all of pain's paths had Rinnegan too, we all thought that was mysterious, remember? Well, Nagato, a path of madara, had rinnegan too. I will need to pay close attention to see who else has the rinnegan, but don't be surprised if we learn zetsu has them too and is paths 4 and 5. Perhaps creating living paths was too much of a strain for madara and he died? Perhaps he only got to creating 3/6 of the paths before his demise. Pay close attention in the next dozen or so chapters to see who else has the rinnegan.
    Last edited by jdblaze85; 10-26-2011 at 11:54 AM.

  10. #30
    Agreed with a lot of things in the OP about Madara Tobi splitting. Some of the stuff since has been a bit radical.

    Also Itachi's "He is Madara Uchiha, and a shadow of his former self" would make a lot of sense.

    Itachi new about Madara tobi more or less I believe. Or at least knew something was up with Madara/Tobi.

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