Tobi IS Madara because of Izangi.

[lunchroomclassic]

Didn't Tobi use Izanagi during his fight with Konan?

He did and if my memory serves me correctly, he used it for an extended period of time (more than a few minutes) while Konan's paper bombs kept exploding.

So I've narrowed the possibilities down to Tobi must be of Uchiha bloodline, or powered by Senju Yang energy (and a shit ton of it because he never deactivates the Sharingan)

[jdblaze85]

Didn't Tobi use Izanagi during his fight with Konan?

Yes, he did use Izangi during his fight with Konan. Remember though, Tobi has a ridiculous amount of Uchiha eyes in jars in his hideout. Meaning, he probably collected up a stockpile of them for use of Izangi. I even believe he may have used Izangi to not be burned alive by Itachi (Sasuke's) Amaterasu. With such a huge supply of extra eyes, who cares if one or two quit working when you can replace them with new ones?

And how do we know he can simply replace his eyes? Well, he'd be a pro at it, after all, he was the first to conduct eye replacement by stealing his brothers eyes.

[paulbee]

Questions:

Using Izanagi (Sharingan style, not Rinnegan style), does not create 2 Bodies, only one. The Body that used the Izanagi fades and disappears. In the battle between Danzo and Sasuke the battlefield is not littered with dead Izanagi'd bodies.

I don't know if I am missing something, but I fail to see how Madara got split in two via Izanagi.

[Arbitrary]

The split may have not only been physical.

[paulbee]

The split may have not only been physical.

Understood, but where there was only one Madara, there now exists two, both mentally and physically. There is no known way that Sharingan based Izanagi can result in this outcome, none that I've seen or read in the Manga.

In addition, one of the two is not fully physically human, he is at least partially a Zetsu.

[lunchroomclassic]

Understood, but where there was only one Madara, there now exists two, both mentally and physically. There is no known way that Sharingan based Izanagi can result in this outcome, none that I've seen or read in the Manga.

In addition, one of the two is not fully physically human, he is at least partially a Zetsu.

http://www.mangareader.net/93-57917-...apter-512.html

Tobi said that this thing has no mind of it's own.

Madara must have analyzed how the Kyuubi chakra reacted to Hashirama's mokuton during their last battle. Just as how Yamato noted the kyuubi's chakra was enhancing his mokuton. We know that only Kyuubi Yang chakra is sealed within Naruto, so the Kyuubi's Yang-Chakra (physical energy) = can be used to breathe life into form.

Tobi also notes that he's had to use a considerable amount of Chakra to create more Zetsu's. So this means that the first's DNA/mokuton in combination with any Tailed-Beast Yang Chakra= A living organism with no mind of its own. There is no Yin energy yet.

As far as Tobi saying "it has no mind", this is where I believe the split comes into play. I believe Madara may have split his Yin and Yang energy, sealing the Yin inside the living organism created by the first's DNA/Yang chakra, thus giving the new organism Madara's personality. This is essentially what Tobi is. This also might be how he was able to give Nagato the essential Yin energy to unlock the rinnegan. Zetsu's spore technique was probably able to transfer some of that Yin energy from Madara.

As far as the other half of Madara, the Yang energy, this is the half that governs life, and he either let himself die at this point, or survived at least long enough to control Nagato and the akatsuki.

The one hole that I still haven't worked out in my head is how Madara was Edo'd back looking what we would have thought him to looked like at the time of his death.

[Arbitrary]

AFAIK, we haven't seen when Madara and Zetsu got along.

They might be buddies ever since, which brings me to my point that... Madara had thought of this split way before he fought with Hashirama.

Think of it as his contingency plan, wherein he splits right before his permanent death and somehow inhabit a special Zetsu body for him.

The thing about this post is, if this were the case, how would Madara know about Nagato? It would've been a few good years after his battle at the Valley of the End.

Think about it. Madara genuinely knew Nagato's Rinnegan abilities right before his original body dies.

Madara (obviously the original one) may still have been alive when Nagato woke up with his abilities or he had it in his plan too. Something like, he knew that Nagato would have the Rinnegan even before he was born (genetics and heredity baby!). Heck, he may have been behind that whole damn war.

Oh well, those are my not-so-well-thought-out ideas.

[Gaara Kazekage]

Questions:

Using Izanagi (Sharingan style, not Rinnegan style), does not create 2 Bodies, only one. The Body that used the Izanagi fades and disappears. In the battle between Danzo and Sasuke the battlefield is not littered with dead Izanagi'd bodies.

I don't know if I am missing something, but I fail to see how Madara got split in two via Izanagi.

You have a point, If the Sharingan Izanagi can split a body it would change everyone's "future" or "existence" and not just the users, and that is the whole deal with Sharingan Izanagi.

[mo916]

What im not understanding is if tobi is a part of madara, how does the moon's eye plan require edo Madara being Resurrected? Tobi stated he would become the ten-tails jinnchuriki http://www.mangareader.net/93-35269-...apter-467.html, so why would he need the old Madara?

Even if Madara and Tobi are both the same, they do not have the same goals, and are now enemies.

[lunchroomclassic]

All hax jutsus aside, if Madara really did survive the fight with Hashirama, it isn't too farfetched to believe that he was able to live long enough to actually meet Nagato. Remember, Tsuchikage is old enough to have at least done battle with the REAL Madara, not a controlled Mizukage, not Tobi, but the actual living breathing Madara that fought Hashirama.

We know that the first Hokage was most likely alive during the infant/toddler years of the 3 sannin. At this point Hashirama, Tobirama, Sarutobi, the 2 advisors, and the 3 sannin are all alive at this time in the Narutoverse. Madara is long gone by now (believed to be dead) but if Tobi is correct in saying that Madara survived the Hashirama fight, he too could have been alive and well at this point.

Nagato is either older than or the same age as Minato. I'm not too sure, but I'm almost positive that Jiraiya trained Nagato before he trained Minato. If I am correct in assuming Nagato is older, we know that Mito Uzumaki was still alive when Kushina and Minato were Genin. It is definitely feasible that Madara is still living at this point, given the age of Mito (whom I'm aware had excellent vitality retention abilities given that she is an Uzumaki).


The point is, Madara only had to survive at least up until the point that Nagato gained the rinnegan. That had to have been one of the last things he made sure of before he died with the intention of Nagato reviving him with Rinnei Tensei. If we put all theories of possible jutsu/Izanagi/mad scientist soul splitting, it is definitely possible that Madara lived long enough to meet and influence Nagato.