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Thread: Tobi vs Madara

  1. #21
    Senior Member Gaara Kazekage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EliteKage View Post
    I never said they're facts. We're all theorizing here obviously no one has the facts except Kishi.
    You said
    All we know is that 1/2 of Madara died during Nagatos childhood aka around the second ninja war.
    , AKA knowing=facts!


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  2. #22
    Konjiki Ashisogi Jizō Daemon Spade's Avatar
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    The more I think about it, the more I'm leaning towards Tobi being a Zetsu clone of Madara. Its not as crazy as some think. In effect, Zetsu was able to succesfully clone Hashirama and that was after Hashirama had died. Imagine what Zetsu could do with Madara's full cooperation. Like someone said Madara planned this all out a long time ago...evident by his knowing Nagato.

    Madara is a supreme genious. The only things that messed up his plans are Naruto and Kabuto. Naruto because he changed Nagato's mind and Kabuto which Edo him instead of Rinn. But even those two didnt totally ruin his plan because Tobi went out and found Nagato and took the Rinnengan, so eventually Tobi would've brought Madara back himself.

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  3. #23
    Liar Game ftw Don.D.Bulky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paulbee View Post
    Tobidara could be A Zetsu clone with Madara's Chakra and a pair of Sharingans that could warp around would be faster than any regular clone.

    ******
    mmmmm still not convinced but I guess we still have to wait for Kishi even if I'm to buy into this argument. And I think the reason Tobidara wanted to know about the edo tensei tech was because he wanted to find a way to take Madara from his custody. He knew sealing Madara will be problematic since it will prevent him from becoming complete. The second reason I'm sure is that he didn't want to fight Madara. Thus if he actually is one and the same person thus a split, then he will know his techs and be able to predict his moves. It will be a battle he can't win. One that will leave him drained to the point that Kabuto will be able to kill him if it becomes a stalemate hence why he didn't want to fight kabuchimaru.

    What if Madara died by putting whatever was left of his chakra into Nagato, in order to supply the Spiritual energy needed to create the Rinnegan.
    Madara died from Chakra exhaustion.
    In other words you think the doujutsu can be created somehow? I doubt an ability like that can be created by the method you mentioned. It's like a bloodline limit. Unless it is a dormant ability possessed by the uzumaki, I don't see how madara would have been able to produce such an effect on nagato by just giving him his spiritual energy.
    All we know up to this point is that the sharingan and the rinnegan have a connection seeing as the So6P had the rinnegan and the sharingan stems from him. Perhaps it is a mutation that caused the variation leading to the sharingan (and the same mutation augmented the sharingan to byakugan. can't remember the chapter i read this from).
    I see a possibility of someone with a more advanced doujutsu say rinnegan influence the sharingan's birth and not vice versa.
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  4. #24
    Yesss... Rlinfamous's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Don.D.Bulky View Post
    mmmmm still not convinced but I guess we still have to wait for Kishi even if I'm to buy into this argument. And I think the reason Tobidara wanted to know about the edo tensei tech was because he wanted to find a way to take Madara from his custody. He knew sealing Madara will be problematic since it will prevent him from becoming complete. The second reason I'm sure is that he didn't want to fight Madara. Thus if he actually is one and the same person thus a split, then he will know his techs and be able to predict his moves. It will be a battle he can't win. One that will leave him drained to the point that Kabuto will be able to kill him if it becomes a stalemate hence why he didn't want to fight kabuchimaru.


    In other words you think the doujutsu can be created somehow? I doubt an ability like that can be created by the method you mentioned. It's like a bloodline limit. Unless it is a dormant ability possessed by the uzumaki, I don't see how madara would have been able to produce such an effect on nagato by just giving him his spiritual energy.
    All we know up to this point is that the sharingan and the rinnegan have a connection seeing as the So6P had the rinnegan and the sharingan stems from him. Perhaps it is a mutation that caused the variation leading to the sharingan (and the same mutation augmented the sharingan to byakugan. can't remember the chapter i read this from).
    I see a possibility of someone with a more advanced doujutsu say rinnegan influence the sharingan's birth and not vice versa.
    Most theories about how the Rinnegan is awakened involve combining Uchiha Spiritual Energies with Senju/Uzumaki Physical Energies. The idea here is that Madara would have given ALL of his Spiritual Energies (and died) to Nagato, who already possessed Senju/Uzumaki Physical Energies. This combination would then enable Nagato to awaken the Rinnegan.

    For what it's worth, Madara's Spiritual Energies are exceptionally high (we know he possessed the strongest chakra of all the Uchiha, and also the strongest Sharingan ever). It's possible that Nagato's Physical Energies were also very strong, even for Uzumaki. We already know that Uzumaki were the only ones capable of becoming the Kyuubi Jinchuuriki, and Kushina was likewise handpicked for her chakra.

    For this theory to work, the quality of the combined Spiritual/Physical Energies would have to be exceptional, because Danzou/Tobi didn't awaken the Rinnegan, even though both had multiple Sharingan and transplanted cells from Hashirama. In Danzou's case, it may have been because he himself was neither Senju nor Uchiha (at the very least, not a Senju descendant with Physical Energies Hashirama's level), and therefore he needed every bit of transplanted Physical Energy to stabilize his Sharingan collection. In Tobi's case, either his own remaining eyes are not Mangekyou level, or there's something else needed to awaken the Rinnegan, which the First Rikudou and Nagato both had. I'm inclined to assume the latter, because Tobi had plenty of chances to take Mangekyou from Itachi or Sasuke, and did not. Corny as it sounds, I half-expect it'll be something like "purity of heart", similar to the requirements to become a perfect Jinchuuriki.

  5. #25
    Senior Member Gaara Kazekage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Don.D.Bulky View Post
    mmmmm still not convinced but I guess we still have to wait for Kishi even if I'm to buy into this argument. And I think the reason Tobidara wanted to know about the edo tensei tech was because he wanted to find a way to take Madara from his custody. He knew sealing Madara will be problematic since it will prevent him from becoming complete. The second reason I'm sure is that he didn't want to fight Madara. Thus if he actually is one and the same person thus a split, then he will know his techs and be able to predict his moves. It will be a battle he can't win. One that will leave him drained to the point that Kabuto will be able to kill him if it becomes a stalemate hence why he didn't want to fight kabuchimaru.


    In other words you think the doujutsu can be created somehow? I doubt an ability like that can be created by the method you mentioned. It's like a bloodline limit. Unless it is a dormant ability possessed by the uzumaki, I don't see how madara would have been able to produce such an effect on nagato by just giving him his spiritual energy.
    All we know up to this point is that the sharingan and the rinnegan have a connection seeing as the So6P had the rinnegan and the sharingan stems from him. Perhaps it is a mutation that caused the variation leading to the sharingan (and the same mutation augmented the sharingan to byakugan. can't remember the chapter i read this from).
    I see a possibility of someone with a more advanced doujutsu say rinnegan influence the sharingan's birth and not vice versa.
    lol, it's understandable why you don't let yourself be convinced by this, it's been a long time since there was this many theories to what's going on, people are going crazy thinking about it.

    Anyways, I might have misunderstood what you said about the sharingan-byakugan, but if I understood you right you thought the byakugan was a mutation or something of the Sharingan, but it's the opposite, the Sharingan is said to derive from the Byakugan.


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  6. #26
    Liar Game ftw Don.D.Bulky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaara Kazekage View Post
    lol, it's understandable why you don't let yourself be convinced by this, it's been a long time since there was this many theories to what's going on, people are going crazy thinking about it.

    Anyways, I might have misunderstood what you said about the sharingan-byakugan, but if I understood you right you thought the byakugan was a mutation or something of the Sharingan, but it's the opposite, the Sharingan is said to derive from the Byakugan.
    That's what I meant but like I said I don't really remember. I had originally thought the sharingan gave birth to the byakugan over time seeing as we can all agree that the sharingan is more powerful. I always thought maybe a weakened sharingan managed to convert all its power to copy jutsu into insight and in the process lost both the eye colour and the tomoes. If it really is sharingan from byakugan I just have to accept it after all we are talking about mutation or evolution here. You can't just decide the course. It will happen naturally as a form of adaptation to the environment. Maybe the need for survival and a sense of powerlessness allowed the byakugan at some point to limit its ability for insight and use it for something more important like mimicry or jutsu copy.
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  7. #27
    Senior Member Gaara Kazekage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Don.D.Bulky View Post
    That's what I meant but like I said I don't really remember. I had originally thought the sharingan gave birth to the byakugan over time seeing as we can all agree that the sharingan is more powerful. I always thought maybe a weakened sharingan managed to convert all its power to copy jutsu into insight and in the process lost both the eye colour and the tomoes. If it really is sharingan from byakugan I just have to accept it after all we are talking about mutation or evolution here. You can't just decide the course. It will happen naturally as a form of adaptation to the environment. Maybe the need for survival and a sense of powerlessness allowed the byakugan at some point to limit its ability for insight and use it for something more important like mimicry or jutsu copy.
    I personally think that the Sharingan is a result of evolution, but evolution isn't always an upgrade applied to all situations but to certain situations. So the Sharingan, like you say, have less insight, it can see chakra and it's flow, but not what directs it and all the other things the Byakugan can see, not to mention the 3D almost 360 degree vision you get with the Byakugan.

    Even Kakashi says that the Byakugan is more powerful than the Sharingan, and I must say I agree. But put a MS against Byakugan then I would bet my money and everything I own at the MS, especially the EMS. A regular Sharingan is truly a great tool, but the Byakugan just got the upper hand, but it lacks upgrades so to speak, like the Sharingan have.


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  8. #28
    Yesss... Rlinfamous's Avatar
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    Kakashi only said the Byakugan is superior in terms of perception. It's better at seeing chakra, and can see the individual chakra points (allowing for the Gentle Fist style), but I'd say that the Sharingan wins out in the end. Permanently copying jutsu, Genjutsu enhancements, potential for Izanagi, and the boost to one's reflexes (seeing attacks before they hit), all of them are better than the Byakugan for everything but tracking.

  9. #29
    Senior Member paulbee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Don.D.Bulky View Post

    ............I see a possibility of someone with a more advanced doujutsu say rinnegan influence the sharingan's birth and not vice versa.
    Nevertheless, Tobidara claimed to Give the Rinnegan to Nagato. If that's true then how else can we explain that.

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  10. #30
    Liar Game ftw Don.D.Bulky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paulbee View Post
    Nevertheless, Tobidara claimed to Give the Rinnegan to Nagato. If that's true then how else can we explain that.
    Only thing is that we don't know if Nagato would have been able to awaken it himself given that Tobidara interfered with Nagato's growth as a shinobi by giving him his spiritual energy as per your theory so to speak.
    Going by your theory, I think Tobidara said that because he believes he caused the ability to awaken in nagato but I'm more inclined to believe that he saw traits in Nagato that suggested he had the doujutsu but he didn't want to leave it's awakening to chance so he gave him a lil something something to fast track its emergence and took credit for it. Thus he knew he had it and may or may not awaken it on his own. Meaning he wasn't sure and Nagato could have done it on his own.
    Where am I going with this?
    Madara just wants to justify his thievery and also the action he took in regards to the rinnegan and its birth may have been sheer coincidence.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaara Kazekage View Post
    I personally think that the Sharingan is a result of evolution, but evolution isn't always an upgrade applied to all situations but to certain situations. So the Sharingan, like you say, have less insight, it can see chakra and it's flow, but not what directs it and all the other things the Byakugan can see, not to mention the 3D almost 360 degree vision you get with the Byakugan.
    Hence why I said it was an adaptation to the environment or in this case to the immediate need of the shinobi. I get that evolution doesn't always produce an upgrade but even if it is a downgrade the change always makes sure to fix a particular problem that needs fixing.

    Even Kakashi says that the Byakugan is more powerful than the Sharingan, and I must say I agree. But put a MS against Byakugan then I would bet my money and everything I own at the MS, especially the EMS. A regular Sharingan is truly a great tool, but the Byakugan just got the upper hand, but it lacks upgrades so to speak, like the Sharingan have.
    Yes he said that but he meant it in terms of perception. We all know apart from the byakugan seeing tenketsu allowing for gentle fist and their wide range of vision making them adept at close combat, the byakugan pales in comparison to the ordinary sharingan. Not MS and not to mention EMS.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rlinfamous View Post
    Kakashi only said the Byakugan is superior in terms of perception. It's better at seeing chakra, and can see the individual chakra points (allowing for the Gentle Fist style), but I'd say that the Sharingan wins out in the end. Permanently copying jutsu, Genjutsu enhancements, potential for Izanagi, and the boost to one's reflexes (seeing attacks before they hit), all of them are better than the Byakugan for everything but tracking.
    I couldn't have stated this any better. I agree 100%.
    Thank you sir.
    Rlinfamous
    Last edited by Don.D.Bulky; 10-14-2011 at 12:29 AM.
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