Bleach 468 Discussion / 469 Predictions

**Don.D.Bulky** · 10-12-2011, 10:50 PM

Finally a bleach chapter I liked. Hope the others follow the example of this chapter. It will be a real downer if they don't cause I've started to get interested in this manga again. Tsuki's battle makes me want to see the substitute shinigami fight even more....xd
I hope I'm not disappointed because I've learned not expect too much from bleach again but I'm letting myself go just this once to find out what happens......hope it goes well hehehe

**Trilight** · 10-13-2011, 12:30 AM

Originally Posted by Zero

There can be two possible conclusions, brought up in this chapter that could still have sense.

One is that his ability works differently for living things and non-living, but has the same basis of memory alteration, which in case of non-living objects, memory change means alteration of it's existence, shape, and so on. It's like a wood table, remembers that it was just a wood, but Tsuki force it to remember that from wood it become a wood chair. The memory of non-living objects is stored in their souls (that's what it said at the beginning of this arc), thus with their own power they can alter physical shape, which remember being different than it is... assuming when a normal objects change it's shape, it's soul changes with it.

The other one is that, his ability has nothing to do with memory alteration, but it's more akin to time travel where he splits his presence and sends it back in time, thus allowing him to alter past by his actions (like creating a trap) or making his presence appear there and swap with someone's else (what he did with Chad and Ori). It could be called experience alteration, where he made the roof, experience the creation of the trap by his hands in it's past and that is why the trap appeared in the present.

He changes the experience of only one thing or one person, which prevents it from skipping time lines. It's like he jumps back in time, changes past, thus creating a new time line and when going back to the original, he brings that one other person's/thing's existence with him, which overlap it's other self.

Actually it's really f*cked up :p.

Zero that was great.

You gave it the old effort, but dang Tsuki's skills are nearly incomprehensible. Nice to see that he's holding his own though. As he should be, he's one of the key players and should be treated as such.

**LeaT** · 10-13-2011, 03:07 AM

I understand the premise of Tsuki's power at work here. He is reshaping the past of whatever he cuts, be it organic or inorganic. And you know what? I actually think it is a pretty cool idea, and pretty OP as far as powers go. What I have a problem with here is the execution of said power. After he "cuts" Byakuya's zan he states that he will never again be cut by that blade? Seriously? how the hell does that work out? I am guessing it is because he is physically(metaphysically?) part of the things past he can gain memories of the time shared with the object, in this case Byakuya's zan. So he theoretically now has a ton of memories with "seeing" the zanpakuto in action and is presumably an expert on Byakuya's fighting style. Put aside for the moment that Byakuya's "technique" in fighting with his sword is just to chase the person around with steel flower petals until he gets em, thereby making predicting what he will do impossible since it is based on the reactions of the person he is fighting; why should Tsuki even bother with that? He could have just been like, "Oh, by the way I cut your sword. Yeah I actually stole your sword the moment before you came here." and it would have theoretically disappeared. But then we get into problems of causality and multiple universes and impossible realities and universe destroying paradoxes. See where this is leading? That son of a bitch Tsuki destroying the time-space continuum. Anyway yeah, execution of power shown here? not too happy with it.

I understand where you are aiming at... but I theorized it more around the idea of governance. Zenbonsakura is no longer explicitly Byakuya's and instead under Tsukishima's control, seeing that zanpakuto aren't inorganic per se, but rather metaphysical (physical?) manifestations of a shinigami's soul and therefore actually have memories. Whatever that now means. As opposed to uh... shared memories? Whatever Kubo says, inanimate objects cannot have memories per se. The thing in itself :/ Fucking Kant. It's 5 AM in the morning, brain isn't working well. I will probably have to think over this further when I don't feel so damn mushy.

I've also given up trying to sort out Kubo's messing around with metaphysics and physics. It doesn't make any fucking sense because he bases it on Hindu and Buddhist philosophy where you can die and reincarnate in multiple heavens and hells that are beyond the physical (but then what the fuck is the physical beyond the physical beyond the physical and so forth?).

EDIT
Also, I wish to emphasize, but does anyone else think this fight resembles of the Espada 8 battle? Zomari or whatever. I don't know why, but I am 110% sure this will all boil down to governance and Tsuki will be fucked in the face because he cannot control the entirety of Zenbonsakura.

**bankai** · 10-13-2011, 04:53 AM

amazing chapter Tsukushima seems badass now... but he still wont be able to win., like kenpachi said when 2 ppl are fighting the one with the most spirit pressure wins... and i dont think that tsukushima is even close to Byakuya spirit pressure

**SquadZero** · 10-13-2011, 07:35 AM

Originally Posted by LeaT

I understand where you are aiming at... but I theorized it more around the idea of governance. Zenbonsakura is no longer explicitly Byakuya's and instead under Tsukishima's control, seeing that zanpakuto aren't inorganic per se, but rather metaphysical (physical?) manifestations of a shinigami's soul and therefore actually have memories. Whatever that now means. As opposed to uh... shared memories? Whatever Kubo says, inanimate objects cannot have memories per se. The thing in itself :/ Fucking Kant. It's 5 AM in the morning, brain isn't working well. I will probably have to think over this further when I don't feel so damn mushy.

I've also given up trying to sort out Kubo's messing around with metaphysics and physics. It doesn't make any fucking sense because he bases it on Hindu and Buddhist philosophy where you can die and reincarnate in multiple heavens and hells that are beyond the physical (but then what the fuck is the physical beyond the physical beyond the physical and so forth?).

EDIT
Also, I wish to emphasize, but does anyone else think this fight resembles of the Espada 8 battle? Zomari or whatever. I don't know why, but I am 110% sure this will all boil down to governance and Tsuki will be fucked in the face because he cannot control the entirety of Zenbonsakura.

I've thought about what you are saying also about zanapkutos and their memories and also governance of objects, but I've come to the conclusion that rather than memories, what Tsuki actually does is insert himself physically(metaphysically?) into the actual past of someone or something. So his power is more akin to Orihime than espada #8. Whereas Orihime has the power to reject a given event in space-time, Tsuki can literally rewrite any given event/events in space-time of whatever he cuts to include him somehow. So what he does goes well beyond simple memory changing(as I believe he also explained it himself) or simple governance of objects.

Also maybe I wasn't clear in what I meant about Tsuki "sharing" memories with someone/something. Given that he can literally rewrite himself into the past of someone/something, Tsuki in all likelyhood then has memories of the changed event/events. So in the case of Byakuya, he probably inserted himself into multiple points in Byakuya's history where he fought with his zanpakuto. So he actually remembers seeing all of Byakuyas techniques with his zanpakuto and is apparently able to predict his movements accordingly. Which will explain the last statement Tsuki made there in the chapter. "Your sword and techniques... I've seen them so many times its boring."

**Genesis 1.0** · 10-13-2011, 09:37 AM

Originally Posted by Zero

And then Tsuki will come out and say: "Oh, have you forgotten that I first sliced the leaf ?".

There is still the possibility of him running away (as he isn't inside the gameboy), entering SS (forcing Urahara to open the gate ?), breaking out Aizen from prison, cutting H-ball and thus becoming it's master.

Good deal, I like those options for the survival of my man, T Sizzle.

Guy's ridiculously intelligent, ruthless, tactical, & quick. Dammit Kubo, this man owns, don't offer him up!

**POW** · 10-13-2011, 11:40 AM

One of the cooler chapter of Bleach I have read in a long while.

Interesting ability...

**LeaT** · 10-13-2011, 04:43 PM

Ok, I'll attempt to clarify my reasoning around Tsukishima's abilities.

I don't disagree with that Tsukishima is able to change the flow of the space-time continuum and I think Zomari was perhaps a bad comparison from my side of what I wanted to say. I think though that if we want to understand his abilities we need to start with the basics of physics and metaphysics and go from there, otherwise it might turn out to be too confusing.

One of the things I wish to start to bring up is the nature of cause and effect here. I think we can agree on that the Bleach universe does not follow a very strong deterministic flow in the true sense of the word, in that events would be predetermined. While basic cause and effect still applies like if you drop an apple it will fall to the ground, the Bleach universe seems to be much more similar to chaos theory not only when it comes to particles but also to large objects. Plenty of examples come to mind here, like Orihime's powers, the Hogukyoku and to a degree Shinji's shikai.

I guess this all makes sense if we assume that the Bleach universe is again built around a Buddhist/Hindu philosophy, since there is no absolute universe in that sense in neither of these philosophies, as the ultimate goal is to... uh, become entirely metaphysical of the metaphysical. I actually think for the sake of simplicity and clarity we should assume that there is no physics and simply say that everything is metaphysical (or we can revert it and everything is physical). This notion of Cartesian dualism doesn't quite properly apply here.

Also, of course, parallel universes. I think this is ultimately what makes Kubo's philosophies in Bleach unintendedly confusing, because the more logical way of dealing with different worlds would be to simply assume they are parallel universes, right? As the changes between each universe becomes larger the variation between them increases to the point where they might not resemble each other at all. Makes perfect sense when we talk about physics and time travel. But in Bleach there are parallel universes AND different worlds within the world.

I become horribly confused by just thinking about it, although I guess ONE way to get around the issue is to see each world as its own instance that in turn got parallel universes, e.g. Hueco Mundo and Hueco Mundo. I still think this explanation is problematic but I leave it there for now. Right, so about memories.

First, I would say there is a significant difference between Tsukishima's abilities and Orihime's in that Orihime is simply capable of changing events that have occurred into not occurring. The conclusion for this for now would be that she can only work with two different parallel universes at any time (although I suspect that we might see changes of that in the future. Still want evil Orihime!), i.e. one where the event occurred (she leaves it be) and one where she reverts the flow of time and changes the course of space where the event did not occur. To put it simply: she can either heal a wound or let it be. Orihime's powers are not capable of building any "relationship" between her and the object she is using her powers on (for now), but Tsukishima can.

This is where I think the term memory is really a poorly chosen one, because it implies something else than what Kubo explains his abilities as. It is obvious that Tsukishima's abilities work on different levels. The one that he directly speaks about is phenomenological in nature, as it requires direction interaction from him in order for him to "insert" himself. This process of "inserting" is existential (I am in reality looking for a different world in philosophy but I can't remember what name it is, but for anyone who is somewhat familiar with analytical philosophy you might want to help me out here, possibly phenomenological as well? I do keep thinking of Heidegger and possibly Kirkegaard) and ontological. Existential because it is capable of changing the nature of an object and ontological because how do we know it is changed? The notion of memory works on both levels, as we must first know an object before we can actually remember it since how can we remember an object that doesn't exist? (but it does not mean that our perception of the object is the same as the object itself)

I was thinking that Aristotle's pragmatism (is that the opposite word of idealism? I forgot) to a degree here, seeing that fullbringers are capable of changing the nature of objects entirely (pendant to sword) and I find that Plato's idealism is too limited to explain that. Of course, it is possible to bring up Kant's the thing in itself here and say that since we can only perceive the object but not actually know the object as it truly is, the nature of the object is very well capable of changing depending on who perceives it. When it comes to the fullbringers though, I think this too easily leads to solpisism, and on that point Wittgenstein is NOT useful.

Anyway, all that rambling aside that did not acheive in helping me feel that I understand Tsukishima's ability much better, I would say to a degree his ability is more powerful than Orihime's, seeing that he can work with more than two parallel universes depending on where he inserts himself and how. He has also shown that he is capable of inserting himself in multiple instances which in theory opens up an infinite amount of possibilities. This is where the notion of governance also comes in, when it comes to sentient objects as opposed to inanimate ones. While it's not a direct control per se, the governance obviously comes from his newly formed relationship between himself and the object. When it comes to Byakuya's zanpakuto, what I mean here is that it will not attack Tsukishima. I don't think Tsuskishima is capable of becoming its master because that would mean that Tsukishima would then be able to control Byakuya's soul and we have seen that fullbringers are not capable of directly manipulating the physical properties of sentient beings (for now, at least). Anyway, the whole deal of changing the properties of something is obviously a form of governance in the metaphysical sense. Divine intervention, if you will.

Right, so I don't think I made this much clearer and I feel more confused myself :/ Fuck you Kubo and your messy philosophies.

**SquadZero** · 10-13-2011, 11:23 PM

Originally Posted by LeaT

Wall o' Text

I'm picking up what you're putting down....for the most part. I now understand with what you are talking about when you say governance of sentient beings through their relationship, but I disagree that this is the case with Byakuya's zanpakuto, otherwise what need would Tsuki have of dodging the steel petals after having already cut them or grabbing Byakuya's arm?

Spoiler!