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  1. #51

    I can't wait!

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    Quote Originally Posted by my2kb22 View Post
    Its either that or its the severing the bond of friendship between ichigo and his friends, chad, inoue, etc., remember the first chapter of this arc, someone pointed it out(i forgot the name), the color page were everyone of his friends have their back turned, probably turned their backs on ichigo: http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v47/c424/3.html
    whose reflection is on the blade that might be a clue too
    Spoiler!

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by O-E-M View Post
    whose reflection is on the blade that might be a clue too
    I think that's either tsukishima or ginjou, but basing on the shape and the eyebrows its ginjou

  3. #53
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    i think the chapter means end of the bond between tsuki and ichigo's friends. cause he is severing the bond that tsuki has made. i think ginjou is a good guy and he was being mysteriouse for good reasons. I think it will turn out to be that ginjou killed the other shinigami and his friends before. because tsuki did the exact same thing before and ginjou had no choice but to kill them because he couldnt defeat tsuki. so ginjou has now gotten ichigo to help him take him out.

  4. #54
    Senior Member Yoru's Avatar
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    I remember someone asked why wasn't ishida affected from tsuki's fullbring. Tsukishima simply didn't use it on him cuz he probably knew it wouldn't have worked and this is what i think:
    Ishida was once healed by Mayuri Kurotsuchi and we know he loves to play with his test subjects..maybe he modified Ishida somehow to make him immune to various kinds of powers?

  5. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Shock View Post
    I would be a trip if this was all set up by Urahara and all the fullbringers are like the Bounto and they were just testing/training Ichigo to get that last little bit of reiatsu out of him so Urahara can seal it away and he would really be just a human again lol, giving him all this fantastic new power and then take it all away again hahahahahahaha

    But off topic, I like sword-fighter Ichigo much much MUCH better than super slash waste reiatsu everywhere Ichigo who just shot black energy at everyone and somehow won every time Ichigo.
    I think they're kind of equal. Yes liking that "sword-fighter Ichigo" seems smart + most efficient in battle now, but it seems he will be lacking his reckless power, that helped him equal , +beat those more experienced, trained, sometimes smarter than him, + sometimes more powerful than him; And Tsukishima seems the type that Ichigo will need that edge/ balance to truly defeat him.


    Quote Originally Posted by Zero View Post
    After this fight, I want to see Ichigo standing bathed in a pool of Tsukishima's blood, laughing maniacally and everyone looking at Ichigo with a shock impression and then, Ichigo will notce a mirror and see in it not himself, but Hichigo... what a comeback it would be ;D .
    Would be great to see.

    Quote Originally Posted by kiduka View Post
    I think we may have already seen a glimpse of Hichigo:

    Spoiler!
    Quote Originally Posted by kiduka View Post
    I doubt it,

    Throughout all his time in that incomplete Fullbring form that was the only moment he gave off a dark vibe.

    Ichigo has a killer instinct but that look on his face is much colder and with half of his face covered with his black cloak gives you a dark impression and also in that moment he overpowers Tsukishima.

    Cold killer, darkness, raw power, these are all similar traits to Hichigo.
    Agreed with Kiduka. Don't think it was a mistake in how erratic + powerful the reatsu was drawn then. nor the fact that we haven't really seen anything similar since then.


    Quote Originally Posted by LeaT View Post
    Because Hichigo is ultimately just a repressed form of Ichigo. Hichigo is not a separate entity whose personality traits are not related to Ichigo, which is the way you make it sound as.

    I think you are interpreting too much into that scene.

    Kind of think it's both a repressed form of Ichigo to the point of it being like a separate entity. Kind of like Bruce Banner and the Hulk, ( same yet different, and except sharing a body), 2 separate entities. If you have the same person cloned yet the 1 of them, they're angry all the time, with power to back it all up. Then they're reactions, personality, how their minds reason, + everything will most likely be completely differing from each other sorta to be 2 completely different persons.
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  6. #56
    Serial Killer Next Door LeaT's Avatar
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    Kind of think it's both a repressed form of Ichigo to the point of it being like a separate entity. Kind of like Bruce Banner and the Hulk, ( same yet different, and except sharing a body), 2 separate entities. If you have the same person cloned yet the 1 of them, they're angry all the time, with power to back it all up. Then they're reactions, personality, how their minds reason, + everything will most likely be completely differing from each other sorta to be 2 completely different persons.
    Not buying into that because of my little theory I developed which is quite well-develped by now, where Hichigo is a representation of Ichigo's id, just like all hollows are representations of somebody's id whereas shinigami are representations of the superego. It is important to understand that the way Hichigo acts is the way Ichigo would act WITHOUT a superego because the id is all about lack of control and the id and the ego are constantly fighting each other. When the id wins, we do things without thinking things through, like buying lots of candy you aren't intending to actually eat but you felt like eating it back then. Another main difference to Bleach and previous works that also draw inspiration from Freudian psychology is that Ichigo's transformation is not akin to a DID (dissociative identity disorder) case - as we see him master his id and draw power from it as a vizard. This element is completely new and I have not seen anything alike it in other instances. Again, this emphasizes the internal relationship between Ichigo and his hollow, suggesting that they are linked in some way.

    I would also like to point out that characters such as The Hulk must necessarily lose control through outside means in a good old fashioned romantic horror sort of deal, while at the same time suggesting that the monster is in all of us as long as we give in (for example a lot of Poe's works or Lovecraft where madness without physical transformation is more common). This is not the case with Ichigo where we see Ichigo constantly struggling between Hichigo talking to him indicating a much closer connection between the two. While it is true that Ichigo does not relate to Hichigo as being a part of him (and generally speaking, people usually don't think of themselves doing that in cases where the id took over either, such as being caught in a fist of rage i.e. lack of control), Hollow Ichigo/Zangetsu later points this out that just as much as Zangetsu is a part of Ichigo, Hichigo is just another form of Zangetsu. Therefore, the only theory that I have seen at least, that can properly explain this relation between Hichigo, Zangetsu and Ichigo is a Freudian theory based around the id, ego and superego, that all three represent different aspects of the human psyche.

    In conclusion they are all Ichigo, just different aspects of him and what happens when he is in control vs not being in control of himself. As much as I'd like the return of hollow Ichigo for being such a badass character, I think it is important to not separate him too much away from Ichigo. There is a reason hollow Ichigo is drawn like Ichigo but without color, as opposed to previous cited works such as The Hulk when the id must necessarily look like a monster. Hollow Ichigo is NOT a monster per se, he just lacks all the control that a superego has (i.e. Zangetsu) and that's why he acts like he does because he simply feels no limits or has any sense of morals. Compare to for example Zangetsu who constantly taught him what was all right and not all right to do in a battle. It is because of Zangetsu Ichigo does not go for a kill or unnecessarily dismembers his opponents.
    Last edited by LeaT; 07-13-2011 at 01:57 PM.
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  7. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by LeaT View Post
    Not buying into that because of my little theory I developed which is quite well-develped by now, where Hichigo is a representation of Ichigo's id, just like all hollows are representations of somebody's id whereas shinigami are representations of the superego. It is important to understand that the way Hichigo acts is the way Ichigo would act WITHOUT a superego because the id is all about lack of control and the id and the ego are constantly fighting each other. When the id wins, we do things without thinking things through, like buying lots of candy you aren't intending to actually eat but you felt like eating it back then. Another main difference to Bleach and previous works that also draw inspiration from Freudian psychology is that Ichigo's transformation is not akin to a DID (dissociative identity disorder) case - as we see him master his id and draw power from it as a vizard. This element is completely new and I have not seen anything alike it in other instances. Again, this emphasizes the internal relationship between Ichigo and his hollow, suggesting that they are linked in some way.

    I would also like to point out that characters such as The Hulk must necessarily lose control through outside means in a good old fashioned romantic horror sort of deal, while at the same time suggesting that the monster is in all of us as long as we give in (for example a lot of Poe's works or Lovecraft where madness without physical transformation is more common). This is not the case with Ichigo where we see Ichigo constantly struggling between Hichigo talking to him indicating a much closer connection between the two. While it is true that Ichigo does not relate to Hichigo as being a part of him (and generally speaking, people usually don't think of themselves doing that in cases where the id took over either, such as being caught in a fist of rage i.e. lack of control), Hollow Ichigo/Zangetsu later points this out that just as much as Zangetsu is a part of Ichigo, Hichigo is just another form of Zangetsu. Therefore, the only theory that I have seen at least, that can properly explain this relation between Hichigo, Zangetsu and Ichigo is a Freudian theory based around the id, ego and superego, that all three represent different aspects of the human psyche.

    In conclusion they are all Ichigo, just different aspects of him and what happens when he is in control vs not being in control of himself. As much as I'd like the return of hollow Ichigo for being such a badass character, I think it is important to not separate him too much away from Ichigo. There is a reason hollow Ichigo is drawn like Ichigo but without color, as opposed to previous cited works such as The Hulk when the id must necessarily look like a monster. Hollow Ichigo is NOT a monster per se, he just lacks all the control that a superego has (i.e. Zangetsu) and that's why he acts like he does because he simply feels no limits or has any sense of morals. Compare to for example Zangetsu who constantly taught him what was all right and not all right to do in a battle. It is because of Zangetsu Ichigo does not go for a kill or unnecessarily dismembers his opponents.
    Interesting theory + well thought out, but not W/o it's flaws.

    If you've seen shows or movies, (best universal example) where people split up based on say emotions, like love lust, hate, anger, jealously, w.e.; they can still have completely developed personalities. Just like you said they are free to do w.e. + that feeling, becomes a partial focal point and ruling point for how they make all their decisions. This still results in a completely different personality from what might be considered the complete Ichigo. You say this is completely unlike DID, yet what I just said^, (that describes the situation we are talking about), meets all the measures 1 would take from DID as well.

    You say the Hulk lost control through outside means, which is true, but the same can be said for Hichigo. Hichigo was originally formed when Ichigo attempted to get his powers with Urahara; that final phase could be seen as making his hollow side strong enough to be a bit more distinct, as well as giving rise to the power to get control or become the body when he chooses to. if you've read a bit of the Hulk, you could see although not necessarily outright conversations like ichigo with Hichigo

    You say Hichgo has sometimes been mastered by Ichigo and drawn power from it as well. I've also seen something similar with the hulk + Bruce Banner as well, in multiple ways; with Bruce mastering control and gaining greater control + precision over the Hulk's uniqueness, + strength, as well as the Hulk earning control and thus gaining access to Bruce Banner's intelligence, + earned sense of peace. Thus a link between them exist but because of circumstances thy are both still 2 separate + complete personalities in their own right

    You also mentioned Hichigo + Ichigo constantly talking, + struggling with each other. The same can be said of the Hulk + Bruce Banner, especially the struggling part. And although they rarely have "conversations", or talk like that much, they have developed an ability to communicate even when the other is in control

    the thing about the zanpaktou's relationship with their user is that Zangetsu said he's a part of him but the truth appears closer to a more "perfect" symbiosis-type relationship; like when + what Zangetsu said about basically Ichigo's mental landscape. Yes Ichigo's landscape is Zangetsu's mental landscape, but from the way he talks, it's not necessarily by choice. Basically these zanpaktous develop/ form/ formulated/ create/ passed down/ sent to/ are created/ w.e. (Kubo has not really truly delved into their process yet, in any form of definitive detail), with personalities, that are basically compatible with each other, but also are their own separate identities. Think Kenpachi + his sword, as well as Hitsugaya + his sword would be the best examples for what I mean. Hitsugayas basically chose him, from what we've been shown, + also has a completely different personality from Toushiro, that in many ways resembles the element itself he's based on. I could say I see facets of Hitsugaya's personality, possibly sprinkled throughout in some points of what we've been shown of Hitsugaya's personality, or it's just possible they shared those facets of personality, or eventually just grew to do so. Kenpachi's relationship with his sword shows that although similar or supposedly a part of each other, swords really do take usually, possibly, thousands of years to really communicate with their owners. So it's not necessarily exclusively that the Shinigamis are reaching inside their own minds to make contact with the zanpaktou part hidden in their minds, it's more akin to them waiting to meet, trying to meet the zanpaktou portion of a personality that can reject the meeting like a separate personality. Kenpachi's relationship also shows that whether if his zanpatou's personality is similar, opposite, opposing, etc., veritably the same as Zaraki's personality, it holds sway, + can reject, accept their master/ boss/ partner/ w.e. + w.e. relationship they choose to have with them. Ichigo almost every time he's fought Hichigo constantly says something to the effect of, "I never even ever thought of fighting that way". If Hichigo was purely just a part of Ichigo given he's pretty much just possibly only experienced what Ichigo's experienced, he couldn't really think of something constantly that Ichigo never conceived of. And Hichigo himself described their relationship as the king + the horse the King rides. 2 totally different, differing personalities/ species/ + forms of thinking. I think that best describes how different their relationships can be individually.

    The appearances thing with the Hulk, + Hyde, + in other similar previous cited works, the external cause or incitation of the other personality forming or gaining dominance was chemical or radiation, in the Hulk's case. The Hulk's story at least was also made/ started in the 60's and doubled as a message to be wary against the unforeseen dangers of radiation + it's effects. So a monstrous, radiated, appearance that would render him eternally, "freakish", lonely which was partly necessarily to convey that at time.
    + Not to neglect the fact that Hichigo has a more freakish appearance than then you act like including the absolute impossible paleness of his skin, black of his eyes and yellow of his pupils. Then you add in the fact that he sometimes turns into a horned, evil looking creature, with a literally wicked looking regeneration ability, + all of this is closer to "his true form", means he's not necessarily completely non-monster looking.

    The Hulk is not a monster per se either. In fact in our real world and especially in manga, based on appearance alone, "monster" is not that easily a definable term. The Hulk is Bruce Banner's rage/ anger/ temper, that has repressed to the point where it was automatic instinct to not be angry because he could never be strong enough. Give that repressed Bruce Banner's rage/ anger/ temper almost unlimited power + potential for power + you have the Hulk. All that + the Hulk still is capable of other ranges of emotions + possibilities, partly through life experiences, and "observing Banner's interactions, + partly through I guess pure instinct but rage is now what powers his power capabilities. Either way, see them quite reminiscent of each other + thus the possibilities for similar individualistic personalities, as well.
    There are more things in heaven and earth then is dreamt of in your philosophy

  8. #58
    Serial Killer Next Door LeaT's Avatar
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    If you've seen shows or movies, (best universal example) where people split up based on say emotions, like love lust, hate, anger, jealously, w.e.; they can still have completely developed personalities. Just like you said they are free to do w.e. + that feeling, becomes a partial focal point and ruling point for how they make all their decisions. This still results in a completely different personality from what might be considered the complete Ichigo. You say this is completely unlike DID, yet what I just said^, (that describes the situation we are talking about), meets all the measures 1 would take from DID as well.
    No, then you don't seem to understand how true DID works - people are NOT aware of their actions or their other personality. Ichigo IS aware of his actions at all times, and the only time he wasn't was during Super Hollow 2 tramsformation which can easily be explained by the fact that he was supposed to be dead. And I don't know what movies you are referring to.

    You say the Hulk lost control through outside means, which is true, but the same can be said for Hichigo. Hichigo was originally formed when Ichigo attempted to get his powers with Urahara; that final phase could be seen as making his hollow side strong enough to be a bit more distinct, as well as giving rise to the power to get control or become the body when he chooses to. if you've read a bit of the Hulk, you could see although not necessarily outright conversations like ichigo with Hichigo
    I think the Hulk is a bad example of what I am trying to say. Think more akin to Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde, the first literary example where this happened. But also, you are forgetting another aspect - Zangetsu.


    You say Hichgo has sometimes been mastered by Ichigo and drawn power from it as well. I've also seen something similar with the hulk + Bruce Banner as well, in multiple ways; with Bruce mastering control and gaining greater control + precision over the Hulk's uniqueness, + strength, as well as the Hulk earning control and thus gaining access to Bruce Banner's intelligence, + earned sense of peace. Thus a link between them exist but because of circumstances thy are both still 2 separate + complete personalities in their own right
    I am not particularly well-read about the Hulk as it is one of the Marvel heroes that have interested me the least. However, I think now know your disagreeing point - you simply want to separate them based on personalities. I do not want to separate them as different entities. I do agree with that they espouse different personalities and never did I argue against this. What I am arguing for is that they would be separate entities based on the argument that they are separate personalities which I think cannot fully describe what is going on.

    the thing about the zanpaktou's relationship with their user is that Zangetsu said he's a part of him but the truth appears closer to a more "perfect" symbiosis-type relationship; like when + what Zangetsu said about basically Ichigo's mental landscape. Yes Ichigo's landscape is Zangetsu's mental landscape, but from the way he talks, it's not necessarily by choice. Basically these zanpaktous develop/ form/ formulated/ create/ passed down/ sent to/ are created/ w.e. (Kubo has not really truly delved into their process yet, in any form of definitive detail), with personalities, that are basically compatible with each other, but also are their own separate identities. Think Kenpachi + his sword, as well as Hitsugaya + his sword would be the best examples for what I mean.
    And how would Hichigo not be in perfect symbiosis if both Hichigo and Zangetsu are the same person? As Tensa Zangetsu pointed out, Ichigo's internal world had been covered with water for a very long time despite Zangetsu's wish for it to "stop raining". This also perfectly explains why Hichigo wss allowed to take up more space within Ichigo's internal world to begin with, as Ichigo was constantly internally suffering without recognizing it. The id feeds off suppressed emotions.
    Hitsugayas basically chose him, from what we've been shown, + also has a completely different personality from Toushiro, that in many ways resembles the element itself he's based on. I could say I see facets of Hitsugaya's personality, possibly sprinkled throughout in some points of what we've been shown of Hitsugaya's personality, or it's just possible they shared those facets of personality, or eventually just grew to do so. Kenpachi's relationship with his sword shows that although similar or supposedly a part of each other, swords really do take usually, possibly, thousands of years to really communicate with their owners. So it's not necessarily exclusively that the Shinigamis are reaching inside their own minds to make contact with the zanpaktou part hidden in their minds, it's more akin to them waiting to meet, trying to meet the zanpaktou portion of a personality that can reject the meeting like a separate personality. Kenpachi's relationship also shows that whether if his zanpatou's personality is similar, opposite, opposing, etc., veritably the same as Zaraki's personality, it holds sway, + can reject, accept their master/ boss/ partner/ w.e. + w.e. relationship they choose to have with them
    I think bringing up Hitsugaya is a very poor example as all of the Bleach movies are pretty much lorelol since Kubo aren't writing the plots. He just have to approve them pretty much and considering Kubo's attitude when his work was blatantly being copied, I just don't think he cares that much about world consistenty outside his manga. Therefore, I do not consider the movies canon just like I do not consider the fillers canon for the same reason. I don't even know why you are talking about Kenpachi since he doesn't even know shikai and thus we cannot know how his sword would manifest itself.

    If Hichigo was purely just a part of Ichigo given he's pretty much just possibly only experienced what Ichigo's experienced, he couldn't really think of something constantly that Ichigo never conceived of. And Hichigo himself described their relationship as the king + the horse the King rides. 2 totally different, differing personalities/ species/ + forms of thinking. I think that best describes how different their relationships can be individually.
    Your argument does not follow. The king and the horse has nothing to do with Ichigo's personal experiences or what Ichigo has thought or not thought of. If anything, I think the manga has been pretty clear on that Hichigo does share Ichigo's combat experiences and is aware of what Ichigo is doing, since Hichigo constantly complains about Ichigo not doing it the right away and so on. Further, your conclusion is not positive, since personalities do not dictate social dominance alone. The idea about dominance is about power here in a metaphysical sense. Hichigo ultimately serves to work as a metaphor for what happens if you reject certain aspects of yourself and what happens if you allow that aspect to control you - for example repressed anger can lead to physical outbursts around you.

    Lastly, I would also like to point out a certain chapter before the Winter Battle where Matsumoto and Yumichika were training in order to communicate better with their zanpakuto, and it's not going very well for them, at which point one of them points out that their zanpakuto are very similar to themselves. I cannot remember the exact dialogue, but Yumichika later explains to Coolhorn that his zanpakuto is as vain and stubborn as he is, explaining why he uses two different release commands for his shikai. The reason for this is that his zanpakuto does not like the other name Fuji Kujaku because it sounds ugly and therefore it will always do a much weaker release form, thus emphasizing the former point about the similiarities between the zanpakuto and the owner. Another important aspect here is how the zanpakuto is described to be a manifestation of the shinigami's soul, and this perfectly explains why Kenpachi for example has not yet achieved shikai because ultimately Kenpachi does not want to win over his opponents. He wants to be weak and be defeated but he always ends up as the stronger one. If you do not actually want to become stronger, then obviously there is no point in attaining a shikai either.
    The appearances thing with the Hulk, + Hyde, + in other similar previous cited works, the external cause or incitation of the other personality forming or gaining dominance was chemical or radiation, in the Hulk's case. The Hulk's story at least was also made/ started in the 60's and doubled as a message to be wary against the unforeseen dangers of radiation + it's effects. So a monstrous, radiated, appearance that would render him eternally, "freakish", lonely which was partly necessarily to convey that at time.
    Yes, that is a rational explanation for the Hulk, but not an explanation why many works until very recently have used a physical change into something monstruous. The reason for this change is that it becomes easier to separate between human and non-human. Take for example werewolves or any other were-stories out there. Even vampires, especially the old versions of them, were pretty much decaying corpses again notating the strong symbolism behind a physical transformation to separate human and non-human.
    + Not to neglect the fact that Hichigo has a more freakish appearance than then you act like including the absolute impossible paleness of his skin, black of his eyes and yellow of his pupils. Then you add in the fact that he sometimes turns into a horned, evil looking creature, with a literally wicked looking regeneration ability, + all of this is closer to "his true form", means he's not necessarily completely non-monster looking.
    Way more humanoid than many other examples found within romantic horror literature which was my point.
    The Hulk is not a monster per se either. In fact in our real world and especially in manga, based on appearance alone, "monster" is not that easily a definable term. The Hulk is Bruce Banner's rage/ anger/ temper, that has repressed to the point where it was automatic instinct to not be angry because he could never be strong enough. Give that repressed Bruce Banner's rage/ anger/ temper almost unlimited power + potential for power + you have the Hulk. All that + the Hulk still is capable of other ranges of emotions + possibilities, partly through life experiences, and "observing Banner's interactions, + partly through I guess pure instinct but rage is now what powers his power capabilities. Either way, see them quite reminiscent of each other + thus the possibilities for similar individualistic personalities, as well.
    You might want to start ditching those unnecessary addition marks because all it does it that it makes it much harder to read when you overuse them like that, instead of being able to phrase it in actual text. I don't understand this paragraph at all because of that, sorry.

    Anyway, like what I said previously, we disagree on different things. That should be straightened out first before going into an actual argument.
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