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  1. #61
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    Aug 2007
    Quote Originally Posted by SCarred Luffy Lvl:Z View Post
    As for the crows, think they are either like the other animals as in summons, or just part of his genjutsu, so making fire crows as per your example wouldn't exactly have been a natural progression of his abilities.
    Itachi is the ace of a clan renouned for their mastery of fire. Using complex fire shape manipulation would totally be a natural progression of his abilities. If Sasuke can make fireballs shaped like dragons there is really no reason why Itachi shouldn't be able to make fire crows. All elemental techniques are chakra based. Kakashi summons dogs and is capable of shaping his lighening element into a dog, its basically the same type of thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by SCarred Luffy Lvl:Z View Post
    What fire is "around them" to utilize like water, air, lightning, + earth is pervasive in the environment?
    Look at it this way, if a fire user uses a fire attack that is dodged but the fire hits a tree or something behind them and ignites they should then be able to manipulate that flame and use it to attack from behind. Sort of like how Kisame creates a lot of water before he fights so that he can manipulate to attack from various angles.

    Quote Originally Posted by SCarred Luffy Lvl:Z View Post
    That's just it, DragonZypher's point was in the right ballpark, although possibly not necessarily directly "right". Fire just isn't that versatile unless at high temperatures, or made extra "special" just for the reasons of the manga. Earth, wind, lightning, + water is. Yes a wind augmented weapon is different from a fire augmented weapon that can melt anything, in that the wind/ air just "stretches/ enhances" the ability of the sword/dagger/ knife/ kunai/ w.e. weapon to cut to include what it is not necessarily directly touching, (making it a bit longer effectively "^stretching" the knife/ weapon itself. Your example above "having a fire augmented weapon that can melt things on contact" is somehow having the weapon augment the abilities of the fire itself, to make it from hot, to instantly hotter than others, all while somehow not melting the weapon it surrounds as well. The fact the the element is fire but not heat itself, is what makes it different from the other elements as well. Lightning says lightning but obviously also includes electricity in any form, and thus to an extent, electromagnetism. Wind says wind but to a great extent includes just all air itself, Earth is quite obvious in what it entails, but there are also some none obvious added benefits of earth including all the minerals and metals found in earth, + lastly water, which to some extent includes ice, and thus the adding + subtracting of temperature instantly; as in all elements that directly in abundance, interact/ have some type of relationship with each other on a daily basis, + basically pervades throughout even the ninjas everyday lives seamlessly + naturally. The only sources of fire is not really "natural" to the earth, (the sun), + the core of the earth is a bit more than just fire in itself.
    What do you mean? Fire is a plasma, it does have a degree of tangibility, lightening is also a plasma. If you want to look at it broadly fire is very abundant in nature. We have already seen that the shape of fire can be manipulated into complex forms, if Sasuke can shape fire into a dragon head, there is no reason why he shouldn't be able to shabe it into a was or blade. Ceating a long wind sword is really no more plausible than creating a fire one, all of the elements are chakra based, it isn't the chakra flowing from it.

    Quote Originally Posted by SCarred Luffy Lvl:Z View Post
    You point out wind in relation to fire + their lack of solidness, and therein lies the likely answer to your question of why there is no creatures composed purely of fire, and or air
    No it doesn't, we have already seen Sasuke shape fire into dragons, the problem was that they just moved like any other fire ball, there was no purpose to the shape. What I am saying is that the shape should have purpose. If other elements can be moved in complex ways, fire should be able to be moved in complex ways as well. To say the fire can only burn in a straight path is like saying lightening can only move as a bolt. We have seen dogs created of lightening, clones created of lightening, spears of lightening that can split in all directions. Having that sort thing allowable and then having fire limited to fireballs and fire breath is absurd. If a fire ball can be created in the shape of a dragon and retain its shape in mid air over a long distance their in no reason why the techniques I listed should not also be possible.

    Quote Originally Posted by SCarred Luffy Lvl:Z View Post
    Now to address your examples:
    Like I said, firewall in essence just breaks down to large fireball in a slightly altered shape of a wall, that does or doesn't move. Without constantly replenishing the fire, Not only that but if some1 were to throw things at it the firewall would either get holes in it or completely breaking down because of that.

    Even assuming they could constantly replenish the fire either through chakra, oxygen, or somehow more fire, so far it doesn't really work for "an attack", + would be too draining and ineffective as a defense.
    As I stated, that makes no sense based on what we have already seen done with fire. If Sasuke can create a superheated dragon head of fire, creating a superheated fire wall should be no more difficult. It doesn't have to be continuously replenished, it has already been created.

    We have seen the same sort of thing done with other elements. Creating a water wall with no water present in the environment has got to be just as drainging as creating one out of fire and fire could actually set the environment aflame in addition to that.

    Quote Originally Posted by SCarred Luffy Lvl:Z View Post

    The problem with a fire whip would be like DragonZypher, said, in fire's intangibility.
    How is wind anymore tangible than fire? Flame is just a part of fire, fire is a plasma. To look at the other elements in a very broad way and then reduce the fire element to simple flame is just nonsense. Why would it even be one of the elements if all it was were flame while every other element in the series covers a much wider scope, that would make it pointless.

    Quote Originally Posted by SCarred Luffy Lvl:Z View Post
    Although it would burn the person, (excusing the way to somehow form fire into a concentrated shape, that can move + flow entirely like a solid(whip) + somehow maintain some sense of cohesion ), you still have the problem of when you hit your target, you should also lose some of the fire in the whip. + you take the chance that the whip hits somewhere that doesn't even effect the ninja anyway. + lastly on this 1, you don't really go for a 1/2/3/etc. hit win with a weapon like that, (because it's fire that is constantly in contact with cooler air it should also constantly be getting cooler as time goes on), more like something to get the opponent to avoid you, or slowly defeat them,
    Again, if you applied all of these restrictions to the other elements they would be no more effective. If Danzo can make a sword out of wind and Sasuke can make needles out of lightening, making a whip out of fire is certainly not that inconceiveable.

    Quote Originally Posted by SCarred Luffy Lvl:Z View Post
    especially in the ninja world where their bodies are tougher than in reality.
    Fire is not limited in its heat, I don't see that as a factor, we have already seen fire that can burn through rock. Just as wind can be increased in power fire can be increased in power aswell, to limit fire and say it wouldn't be strong enough to hurt a durable ninja is ridiculous.

    Quote Originally Posted by SCarred Luffy Lvl:Z View Post
    Even somehow overlooking the great possibility that an aura made of fire to be constantly replenished should burn the oxygen supply of the user,
    All of the elements are chakra based, they are kneeding their chakra into an element. If oxygyen were the issue Amaterasu would do the same thing, it is in fire form for a reason, it behaves like fire. Sasuke was even able to draw the heat released by Amaterasu to increase the power of Kirin. It isn't just some anti-mater shrowd that just looks like fire, it is fire, it is just fire with several special attributes.

    Quote Originally Posted by SCarred Luffy Lvl:Z View Post
    There's a reason we haven't been shown, an earth, water, and wind aura either
    We have seen earth used as armor, more or less, an earth aura would be pointless beyond that. As for water, again we probably haven't seen a water aura because it doesn't seem like it would have a practical purpose. A fire aura would have a practical purpose though, and again, it really isn't anymore absurd than someone using a lightening aura and getting superspeed from it. Creating an aura of fire that burns people who touch it is far from the most far fetched technique in the series.

    Quote Originally Posted by SCarred Luffy Lvl:Z View Post
    + There's a reason Sasuke could do that but only with Amaterasu. Fire is no different in this regard.
    Why? As I said, Amaterasu behaves like fire, Sasuke did multiple shape manipulations with Amaterasu so why wouldn't he be able to do them with the fire element.

    Quote Originally Posted by SCarred Luffy Lvl:Z View Post
    Fire bullets or arrows just boil down to fire balls that are quicker, smaller, but in slightly differering shapes; how much different is that from fireballs, really?
    Its different because the effects are different, I already addressed that. Like I said, it isn't always about creating a different shape. That would be almost like saying that there is no point in waterfang bullets because they are just another water technique shaped into a sphere. The water prison is also water shaped into a sphere, but purpose and effect is completely different.

    Quote Originally Posted by SCarred Luffy Lvl:Z View Post
    A fire prison means somehow maintaining the fire, + taking the risk that a ninja wouldn't find a way to just power through the fire anyway.
    What? There is always a risk that a ninja will find a way to power through an opposing technique, how is that relevant? As for maintaining the fire, like I said, if Sasuke can produce big fireballs shaped like dragons and have them fly into the upperatmoshpere, he should be able to shape fire in many other ways in mid air. Sasuke wasn't shooting a constant streem of fire to maintain the dragons shape, he created it and is stayed in that form.

    Quote Originally Posted by SCarred Luffy Lvl:Z View Post
    Also as mentioned with the fire wall you can take away from the fire by taking away from the fire and interrupting it's flow that easily when not in an enclosed space.
    You'll have to explain this one to me in a little more detail I don't follow.

    Quote Originally Posted by SCarred Luffy Lvl:Z View Post
    Your fire bombs like mentioned in my last post breaks down into a fireball that produces more fireballs, from within itself somehow, after losing the connection with the chakra-user?...
    Yeah, how is that any different from Ninja manipulating water and earth from a distance that has no connection to the user?

    Quote Originally Posted by SCarred Luffy Lvl:Z View Post
    Fire touch might be doable but as pointed out, that means you are talking about heat, not fire, and if fire itself can take a while to truly get and maintain it's heat, than the same would apply to just heat exerted by chakra on the body.
    Look up some information on fire, as I said, fire is not just flame, heat is a significant aspect of fire. Narrowing fire down to just flames and then looking at the very broad use of the other elements is completely unfair. Like I said, it would be a bit like saying lightening is just an electric bolt.

    Quote Originally Posted by SCarred Luffy Lvl:Z View Post
    Also there would have to be a way to not burn themselves.
    Why? Raikage doesn't seem to be worried about electrocuting himself. Fire users can shape and manipulate fire, just like other element users can shape and manipulate their elements. I don't see why it would be such a big problem for them to find a way to avoid being killed by their own techniques. Naruto found a way to avoid the serious side effect of his extremely dangerous technique, I am sure smart ninja can find ways around getting burned by their own fire. As we saw, Sasuke didn't seem worried about getting burnt by amaterasu when he was manipulating its shape.

    Quote Originally Posted by SCarred Luffy Lvl:Z View Post
    Although there are jutsus to shoot fire, mostly from the mouth, it doesn't actually make contact with the human body, which is why the (redhead hottie ?kage's) bloodline ability is so special. Not to mention once again, as the problem with others, this is adapted to a style of fighting counting on the totality of hits to take it out anyway, which means, in many respects, especially energy/ chakra reserves-wise it would just make more sense to just use normal taijutsu. The fire clone idea could be viable though. Actually have no problems with it. It would also be liable to only have very few people of a specific village know it.
    If you don't have any problem with fire clones, I really don't see why you have problems with the other fire techniques I mentioned. If someone can control fire enough to make a fire clone making fire walls and such should be a breeze.

    Quote Originally Posted by SCarred Luffy Lvl:Z View Post
    Like I said raining fire judging by your word choice, would put the user in danger almost as much as the target. + what it boils down to is raining fireballs of varying shapes and sizes, somehow reproduced/ produced within the fire itself?
    If Sasuke can shoot fire into the atmoshpere to create lightening and then use his chakra to harness that lightening and hit a target with pinpoint accurancy, I really don't see the problem. Ninja control their elements with their chakra, if Sasuke can control a big lighting bolt in the sky, he should just as easily be able to shoot fire into the air and then use shape manipulation to have it rain down on enemies below. Gaara did something similar with sand.

    Quote Originally Posted by SCarred Luffy Lvl:Z View Post
    Like has been said, most of these problems boils down to the fact that: fire is intangible but it can be taken from/interrupted, fire in itself is not necessarily greatly hot without time to get that hot, nor will it necessarily maintain that heat indefinitely,
    Once again, if big fire balls that are tangible enough to significantly damage solid earth can be created then I see nothing to indicate that the intangibility of fire is an issue.

    Quote Originally Posted by SCarred Luffy Lvl:Z View Post
    Fire has not been shown to be heat, as they are presented as 2 different things
    No, heat is an aspect of fire, its part of the definition plain and simple.

  2. #62
    Senior Member
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    Aug 2007
    Quote Originally Posted by SCarred Luffy Lvl:Z View Post
    Totally agreed with your 1st statement, except it doesn't apply to all elements. Fire burns. Fire will always burn. Fire can only burn, melt, hurt and or destroy, (unless some special fire), while the other elements do not have that drawback lightning/ electricity, could, in a manga setting, be used to paralyze, interact with 1's natural electrical impulses and augment their speed, shave, electrocute primarily, + separate or bind things together. Mentioned that last 1 because it applies to fire as well. Only problem is that although it applies to fire as well, unlike Electricity, if fire separated or binded stuff together, it was just a side effect of the burning and melting, not necessarily something separate from the burning/melting aspect, nor something that can be applied to battle constantly, consistently, either for defense or offense, purely for the quick practice of burning or melting something.
    I mentioned only Lightning so far, but the same myriads of possibilities apply to water, earth, + wind. Like I said regular fire just has it's 1 underlying application always beneath everything it might be capable of doing.
    You are very broadly defining lightening but you are providing a very limited view of fire. As I mentioned, if fire were purely flame and that's it, having fire as one of the primary elements wouldn't make any sense. If such a broad view is going to be applied to the other elements it is only logical that a similar broad view of fire and its effects should be reflected in the series.
    Quote Originally Posted by SCarred Luffy Lvl:Z View Post
    If a fire-user set their surroundings ablaze, they would/ might have the advantage of more knowledge of how fire works, but they would/ should be just as susceptible to the fire as the enemies they tried to harm.
    No, because they would be able to use their chakra to manipulated it. That goes back to the point that elemental techniques are chakra based.

    Quote Originally Posted by SCarred Luffy Lvl:Z View Post
    It would be like Naruto's rasenshuriken as an example. If it became a common practice or ninjutsu, of having a way to reflect Naruto's attack back at him like the 1 Pain did, it would be pretty much useless for Naruto to use it except only in situations when he could catch an enemy totally unawares, and seeing as it takes still a bit of time to make, in the middle of a battle, that would mean it would be nearly impossible for Naruto to use that exact move. In this example using fire beyond what it's been used by Kishi, would be the rasenshuriken. There are so many flaws, + weaknesses that occur in using fire different ways creatively than what is intended by nature, that IMHO, (unless the fire will no longer be seen as normal/ regular, which would be equivalent to changing the move in the example) it makes more sense for Kishi to limit it the way he has, + not try to expand on it.
    Frankly, if we hadn't already seen so much done with the other elements people could just as easily make similar grievances. We have already seen many unnatural uses of other elements, why should fire be any different? The elements are formed and manipulated by chakra, they aren't limited purely to how they move or act in nature. We don't get any lighting hounds in nature. To single out fire and make it limited to basically simple obvious forms found in nature, when we have seen that the other elements in the manga can take on nearly any form and have a multitude of complex effects, is just nonsense. Fire is also complex, there are many types of flames and fire has many effects. As one of the primary elements in the series, not treating in broadly (as the other elements have been treated) is bogus.

  3. #63
    Appearance of Darkness Aga bomBa's Avatar
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    Oct 2008
    damn guys.. everything that has been done with Wind, Water, Earth and Lighting, can also be done with Fire. It's the users skills for manipulating it and giving it a shape or something related to that. The issue is that,.. Kishi hasn't showed us YET, what people can do with Fire.

    1. Kishi is waiting for Sasuke / Madara battle. Those two are the strongest shinobi's ALIVE, for showing " us " the real depth of Fire Manipulation.


    2. Kishi just don't want it, because all the other elements are far more usefull and effectively in battle ?!?!?

    AND YES, of course Itachi is possible in making him crows spout FIRE or surrounding his crows with FIRE.. but then again; it's not his style in my opinion and he doesn't need that. Itachi is too strong for using his fire manipulation with his crows.
    His Ametarasu is far more lethal and yes,.. I know that Amatarasu takes a lot more chakra and makes you go blind faster, but making his crows have fire surrounding him, isn't Itachi Utachi for me.

    DON'T GET ME WRONG, I understand you completely Artifice.. it is POSSIBLE, no doubt about it. It's still not sure why Kishi hasn't done it already.
    ... You're Dead 2 Me Now ...

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