[Character]Blackbeard

[arisart]

Well, he could @ least detect + tell improvements in haki. I'm guessing he might have or grow to use, possibly a non-offensive type by the time we see him again, like COO.

Either way already, I believe it is overkill, with the 2 powers, especially if he can get really creative with the mixture of those abilities, which he undoubtedly will in the future.

Imo, WB's CoO > to whatever haki BB will learn to weild. And I'm not even going to WB's KD haki. A prime WB could easily compete with BB+3 df and not getting totally owned. The only advantage I see on BB's part is his ability to neutralize df power. So I don't see it as an overkill. He is still hittable, still drips blood and takes damage. He's not like those overkill characters like Aizen or the King in HxH wher they're both untouchable.

And if you look at it, BB's df is a great match-up to Luffy's! The gura gura nomi won't affect Luffy like normal people would as he is made of rubber. Luffy will be able to take the damage better because of that. Luffy is physically a beast too so he would be able to match BB zoan body/strength/speed just like he did with Lucci. BB will have to use his yami yami nomi to neutralize Luffy's df to inflict real damage which would open up his defense and Luffy would sneak in an attack too just like Ace did. It will go down to whose gonna be able to take a hit better.

If I could make up a match-up like that, tells us that BB having 3 df ain't overkill. Sure he will improve by then and may have come up with combo attacks but so does Luffy.

[SCarred Luffy Lvl:Z]

Imo, WB's CoO > to whatever haki BB will learn to weild. And I'm not even going to WB's KD haki. A prime WB could easily compete with BB+3 df and not getting totally owned. The only advantage I see on BB's part is his ability to neutralize df power. So I don't see it as an overkill. He is still hittable, still drips blood and takes damage. He's not like those overkill characters like Aizen or the King in HxH wher they're both untouchable.

And if you look at it, BB's df is a great match-up to Luffy's! The gura gura nomi won't affect Luffy like normal people would as he is made of rubber. Luffy will be able to take the damage better because of that. Luffy is physically a beast too so he would be able to match BB zoan body/strength/speed just like he did with Lucci. BB will have to use his yami yami nomi to neutralize Luffy's df to inflict real damage which would open up his defense and Luffy would sneak in an attack too just like Ace did. It will go down to whose gonna be able to take a hit better.

If I could make up a match-up like that, tells us that BB having 3 df ain't overkill. Sure he will improve by then and may have come up with combo attacks but so does Luffy.

^The difference between luffy's combo attacks and BB's is that BB's will be with 2 fruit ability, or 3 if your view turns out right. But Luffy's combo is between his DF ability and his haki. Cancel out the Df ability for Luffyand you're left with a great big gulf of differences between "combination attacks" And like I said, giving BB just COO could alone make him many times faster as well, even though not technically offensive.

That's kind of my point. if he had this "cerebus" ability, already, taking the hits he do would probably make him invincible from the zoan aspect already, and the same would apply to if he gets a zoan fruit afterwards. Zoan fruits also normally seem to fit some1's personality, and in their forms amplify physical capability. In BB's case wouldn't be surprised if he winds up with something like a Rhino fruit, which while he can take a hit would make his skin like armor and possibly greatly increase speed and strength. Think Daz mentioned this long time ago, but there is also a side effect to his yami fruit; something like either the force is reduced or its reduced enough that he can never die from it. Wouldn't be surprised if he could also never be rendered seriously unconscious because of it as well. This is where it could get really tricky in exactly how much it would take to beat BB, just from an enemy's attacking him standpoint alone, ( not even mentioning if he's attacking you back).

Then there's the aspect I was talking about the most. the combining of abilities. Just because he has to use 2 different hands does not necessarily mean in the future it will work out that way, or even that while in 2 different hand the powers can't be combined. Nor does it mean that even without the combination, his powers cannot be used in concert of each other. Because he didn't really show that capability with little training @ the war, I think people underestimate just how much those abilities alone could be dangerous to any1.
For instance, If BB used a quake and made it so Luffy would fall into the depths like WB vs Akainu. Luffy dodges and tries to attack but realizes like @ ID and against Ace, BB has made pretty much anywhere under him a black hole, he gets sucked in and who knows what happens after that. Nor how many times it can be done.
And you say that Luffy can't be affected by the quake powers but if BB uses the quake after he's made Luffy normal, then Luffy could be greatly outmatched, especially in terms of power.

Hell who knows if BB couldn't just swallow a huge amount of the seawater into a black hole and then just chug it at his enemies reducing their abilities w/o directly using his fruit


Long ago people talked of how Zolo was probably BB's perfect enemy to take him down, by mangas end, because of no df and a sword. But with the introduction of BB's quake abilities alone, I see that as no longer a real possibility. With these 2 fruits, Bb now has the perfect balance to what he was missing; The perfect offense and defense on his side for pretty much any known enemy. Add another ability onto that and you're just begging Oda to purposefully overkill the match into BB's favor.

I see it this way, Everybody in OP s pretty balanced with weaknesses and strength. Akainu is hella powerful, using his fruit, but who knows about physically, and he can pretty much get through any obstacle so we se theres no need for him to be extra fast. WB is plainly monsterously strong. But we don't see him with extreme speed or even like tougher than normal skin. Kizaru could be the fastest being in the OPU, W /o. the addition of COO, or differing techniques to achieve speed. And Kizaru, has not been shown to be necessarily that strong alone W /o. the speed == weight backing him up.
Just think if you mess with that current balance BB has the capacity to reach, then your purposefully not just making it harder, but jumping to all but impossible for Luffy to realistically and credibly beat BB. Wouldn't want Luffy's final or greatest victory to be tainted by the stink of "deus ex machina" reasoning.

[ChaosMaster]

No, I think that it'll stay that way to keep him from being overly imba. One power per hand. At best he'ld learn how to use both at once.

[arisart]

Spoiler!

^The difference between luffy's combo attacks and BB's is that BB's will be with 2 fruit ability, or 3 if your view turns out right. But Luffy's combo is between his DF ability and his haki. Cancel out the Df ability for Luffyand you're left with a great big gulf of differences between "combination attacks" And like I said, giving BB just COO could alone make him many times faster as well, even though not technically offensive.

That's kind of my point. if he had this "cerebus" ability, already, taking the hits he do would probably make him invincible from the zoan aspect already, and the same would apply to if he gets a zoan fruit afterwards. Zoan fruits also normally seem to fit some1's personality, and in their forms amplify physical capability. In BB's case wouldn't be surprised if he winds up with something like a Rhino fruit, which while he can take a hit would make his skin like armor and possibly greatly increase speed and strength. Think Daz mentioned this long time ago, but there is also a side effect to his yami fruit; something like either the force is reduced or its reduced enough that he can never die from it. Wouldn't be surprised if he could also never be rendered seriously unconscious because of it as well. This is where it could get really tricky in exactly how much it would take to beat BB, just from an enemy's attacking him standpoint alone, ( not even mentioning if he's attacking you back).

Then there's the aspect I was talking about the most. the combining of abilities. Just because he has to use 2 different hands does not necessarily mean in the future it will work out that way, or even that while in 2 different hand the powers can't be combined. Nor does it mean that even without the combination, his powers cannot be used in concert of each other. Because he didn't really show that capability with little training @ the war, I think people underestimate just how much those abilities alone could be dangerous to any1.
For instance, If BB used a quake and made it so Luffy would fall into the depths like WB vs Akainu. Luffy dodges and tries to attack but realizes like @ ID and against Ace, BB has made pretty much anywhere under him a black hole, he gets sucked in and who knows what happens after that. Nor how many times it can be done.
And you say that Luffy can't be affected by the quake powers but if BB uses the quake after he's made Luffy normal, then Luffy could be greatly outmatched, especially in terms of power.

Hell who knows if BB couldn't just swallow a huge amount of the seawater into a black hole and then just chug it at his enemies reducing their abilities w/o directly using his fruit


Long ago people talked of how Zolo was probably BB's perfect enemy to take him down, by mangas end, because of no df and a sword. But with the introduction of BB's quake abilities alone, I see that as no longer a real possibility. With these 2 fruits, Bb now has the perfect balance to what he was missing; The perfect offense and defense on his side for pretty much any known enemy. Add another ability onto that and you're just begging Oda to purposefully overkill the match into BB's favor.

I see it this way, Everybody in OP s pretty balanced with weaknesses and strength. Akainu is hella powerful, using his fruit, but who knows about physically, and he can pretty much get through any obstacle so we se theres no need for him to be extra fast. WB is plainly monsterously strong. But we don't see him with extreme speed or even like tougher than normal skin. Kizaru could be the fastest being in the OPU, W /o. the addition of COO, or differing techniques to achieve speed. And Kizaru, has not been shown to be necessarily that strong alone W /o. the speed == weight backing him up.
Just think if you mess with that current balance BB has the capacity to reach, then your purposefully not just making it harder, but jumping to all but impossible for Luffy to realistically and credibly beat BB. Wouldn't want Luffy's final or greatest victory to be tainted by the stink of "deus ex machina" reasoning.

First of all, nice post. You making me work hard here!

1st paragraph> And that would be Luffy's biggest hurdle in attaining PK status. And as I imply in my previous post Luffy will definitely ending up fighting BB using only haki as BB's trump card will always be his yami yami nomi being able to neutralize df abilities. Though that trump card could also be his weakpoint as he needs to get close to his opponent and has to open up his defense so having CoO won't matter much as BB will be willing to get hit by an attack minus df power to give his own. Now it will all goes down to this..

2nd. Luffy minus df will be facing BB + 3 df. Sounds like an impossible fight to win for Luffy but I don't see it that way. The fact that in OP world, a human with no df whatsoever can still be physically stronger (ex Rayleigh, Zoro) than most zoan types. And even those whose df doesn't increase the user's brute strength is still stronger than any Zoan type we've seen (ex.WB). So normal Luffy dealing damage BB's zoan body is not far-fetched (though he still needs to increase his physical strength or stronger CoA haki imo). Now how about normal Luffy taking a hit from BB's quake attack. He'll definitely takes big damage but it's survivable as we've seen Akainu and BB himself taking shots from it. Again Luffy needs to improve his endurance but that's doable.

About Daz's theory. The way BB described how his df works, he implies that "anything" will be sucked in by his body that's why he cannot let anything just pass by like a normal logia would. I think what he means by anything is really anything. Even wounds and pain that's why BB didn't even had a scratch on him after he fought Ace even when he got stabbed by a fire lance on his chest. BB's df will also absorb damage and pain but not automatically as he always cringe in pain when he's hit. The damages will be gradual and so Luffy will have a chance to beat him by knocking BB unconscious. A tall order but everybody has a threshold of pain and eventually has to submit to it.

The fight will go down on who will succumb first to each others attack. Luffy definitely needs to improve his physical strength, endurance and haki (w/c are already already sick) to win the fight. These aspects that Luffy needs to improve will be BB's downfall as he will rely too much on his df. In a way this will balance out their fight. Strong DF vs Strong body+haki.

Yes, BB is supposed to be in a bad match up against swordsmen but with inclusion of the gura gura nomi this obviously is not the case anymore. Which is a good thing as it would be lame if he has the potential to be PK but would be defeated by any top tier swordsmen. It will now takes an elite power to beat him which will be and only Luffy.

Yep Oda has done a wonderful job on keeping his character balanced. But it will be a different case for BB as he's grooming him up to be Luffy's ultimate rival. Oda could be making BB so strong that no other person other than Luffy would be able to beat him. And like I said, Luffy has the perfect tools to beat a 3 df BB. He just needs to further hones it. I don't see it as deus ex machina thing but as I always says, style/abilities makes fights (ex Luffy beating Enel coz he's rubber).

[daz bonez]

First of all, nice post. You making me work hard here!

1st paragraph> And that would be Luffy's biggest hurdle in attaining PK status. And as I imply in my previous post Luffy will definitely ending up fighting BB using only haki as BB's trump card will always be his yami yami nomi being able to neutralize df abilities. Though that trump card could also be his weakpoint as he needs to get close to his opponent and has to open up his defense so having CoO won't matter much as BB will be willing to get hit by an attack minus df power to give his own. Now it will all goes down to this..

2nd. Luffy minus df will be facing BB + 3 df. Sounds like an impossible fight to win for Luffy but I don't see it that way. The fact that in OP world, a human with no df whatsoever can still be physically stronger (ex Rayleigh, Zoro) than most zoan types. And even those whose df doesn't increase the user's brute strength is still stronger than any Zoan type we've seen (ex.WB). So normal Luffy dealing damage BB's zoan body is not far-fetched (though he still needs to increase his physical strength or stronger CoA haki imo). Now how about normal Luffy taking a hit from BB's quake attack. He'll definitely takes big damage but it's survivable as we've seen Akainu and BB himself taking shots from it. Again Luffy needs to improve his endurance but that's doable.

About Daz's theory. The way BB described how his df works, he implies that "anything" will be sucked in by his body that's why he cannot let anything just pass by like a normal logia would. I think what he means by anything is really anything. Even wounds and pain that's why BB didn't even had a scratch on him after he fought Ace even when he got stabbed by a fire lance on his chest. BB's df will also absorb damage and pain but not automatically as he always cringe in pain when he's hit. The damages will be gradual and so Luffy will have a chance to beat him by knocking BB unconscious. A tall order but everybody has a threshold of pain and eventually has to submit to it.

The fight will go down on who will succumb first to each others attack. Luffy definitely needs to improve his physical strength, endurance and haki (w/c are already already sick) to win the fight. These aspects that Luffy needs to improve will be BB's downfall as he will rely too much on his df. In a way this will balance out their fight. Strong DF vs Strong body+haki.

Yes, BB is supposed to be in a bad match up against swordsmen but with inclusion of the gura gura nomi this obviously is not the case anymore. Which is a good thing as it would be lame if he has the potential to be PK but would be defeated by any top tier swordsmen. It will now takes an elite power to beat him which will be and only Luffy.

Yep Oda has done a wonderful job on keeping his character balanced. But it will be a different case for BB as he's grooming him up to be Luffy's ultimate rival. Oda could be making BB so strong that no other person other than Luffy would be able to beat him. And like I said, Luffy has the perfect tools to beat a 3 df BB. He just needs to further hones it. I don't see it as deus ex machina thing but as I always says, style/abilities makes fights (ex Luffy beating Enel coz he's rubber).

god guys..that`s loong....

okay 1st...BB trump card is his Yami no mi..but like i stated earlier.it will be his biggest weakness...since it make him take more damage than normal.second with his Df abilities bb can outdo any df user who is very relyng on his power...once it got seal it`s over.but iirc van auger said that ace is a an exceptional man..who`s still bravely fight eventhough his power got locked.it`s saying a lot about his charcter length.and lastly BB is arrogance but also a pussy...we see how he beg for mercy to WB when wb smack him and beat him senseless like Wb said his arrogance is his weakness..and his gura no Mi is not a much help either seeing it`s a full frontal offense power.unless if he already got the zoan fruit..that will be much different.anyway..yea BB will be not just Luffy but all th Sh biggest challenge to obtain OP since Oda already made the BBpirates their archenemy....and if you seeing the brief fight beetween BB and luffy in ID it gave some of the readers a quite shock.many of the readers including me thinks BB is already untouchable after he got the yami no mi but no sir..Luffy made him bleed good...and after seeing the war.many Op fans will reconsider the balance of power and strength beetwen character.again i guess the first fight beetwen bb and Luffy is a teaser about the fight they both gonna have...that time BB only have one DF and luffy haki only just bursting....imagine the fight in a whole new level...

2nd.pretty much agree...Luffy Haki is exceptional...idk bout BB but..seeing hancock reaction in the arena show how serious his sleeping power is.and remember at the war when Luffy show up..yeah the marine and many pirates surprised..but not seing him as a big threat.and then Luffy burst his Coc again..and what happen...we see doberman to ordering his soldier to take care of Luffy..and Akainu of all people try to kill him so hard and all the wb commanders protect him..coz of his Potential.i know Bb has haki too..but we dont`t know how strong and how mani Haki he mastered.besides i see him as the villain who relyng on his df power...not his Haki.

3rd.a hard task..since we know BB is a tanker who can take many damage..bt preety much agree.

4th.nothing more to add....

5th.a 3rd DF will be overkill for BB.but not unbeatable.yes this is the first time someone had taken 2 powers of a df at the same time.and we know BB will be a big threat.but i guess the opponent luffy face along the way will make him stronger and ready for the big fght.

BB is strong..but it does not mean he is the strongest.the New World is a very dangerous sea... and we never see it as a reader (only a little glimpse of it) besides i`m imagining myself if theres a type of a Copy Copy no mi a df who can copy other df user powers.lke peter petrelli on Heroes...that will be Overkill....or jikan jikan no mi..a time controlling Df.....besides we will have the WG one that can never be underestimated.but yeah Bb is set to be Luffy biggest challenge for OP and the PK title.

[Airicks]

I hate how BB looks, other then that i like him, its a good name for a pirate - good DF, Strong but not too strong because he takes extra damage.

And I doubt he has 3, thats cheesy in my opinion - giving him 2 was iffy to me, 3 is just over powered/lame.

[ChaosMaster]

Yeah, I really see no point in him getting 3. Don't forget that he was quite a warrior himself before he even got a DF, in that he match young Shanks. The thing is though, the only reason for BB to get 3 DF, one of each type would be to have a main Character, who has no DF beat him, which isn't the case as Luffy already has a DF. Not to mention that his the only one in history to have 2 DF, that in itself is already imba. If he learns to control and wield them properly, there's not many who can touch him.

The fact that in OP world, a human with no df whatsoever can still be physically stronger (ex Rayleigh, Zoro) than most zoan types. And even those whose df doesn't increase the user's brute strength is still stronger than any Zoan type we've seen (ex.WB). So normal Luffy dealing damage BB's zoan body is not far-fetched (though he still needs to increase his physical strength or stronger CoA haki imo).

I think you're seeing Zoan abilities different to how I am. As shown by Lucci and CP9, Zoan act as a multiplier to the user's strength. By which I mean if your punch does 100n force, when you go into Zoan mode, it'll do 300n force. Again though, as CP9 have shown through their power rating thing, a multiplier doesn't matter if you don't have the strength to begin with. I mean you could give Usoppu (pre TimeSkip) a Zoan ability, but his punch strength is only 5n force, so having a 3x multi would give him 15n force, which doesn't compare to the 100n force of Lucci. These are examples, I'm just using random numbers, but I think you get the idea. WB was a beast, look at the size of his guns (muscles). There are people who train for Strength and those who train for speed and WB was clearly the former. If his ability wasn't Quake but some Giant Zoan, his punch would have taken out Akainu through brute strength alone, that that would have been imba.
Woops, got a bit off topic, but I'm saying that Zoan would most likely get rid of BB's weakness, and that would make him too imba.

[Light-kun]

^just imagine what Zoro would be like with a Zoan then

I like the Cerberus theory about BB, though.
Imo it doesn't really matter if he has 2 or 3 DFs, because the key to beating him is to neutralize his Yami Yami no mi.

[arisart]

Yeah, I really see no point in him getting 3. Don't forget that he was quite a warrior himself before he even got a DF, in that he match young Shanks. The thing is though, the only reason for BB to get 3 DF, one of each type would be to have a main Character, who has no DF beat him, which isn't the case as Luffy already has a DF. Not to mention that his the only one in history to have 2 DF, that in itself is already imba. If he learns to control and wield them properly, there's not many who can touch him.


I think you're seeing Zoan abilities different to how I am. As shown by Lucci and CP9, Zoan act as a multiplier to the user's strength. By which I mean if your punch does 100n force, when you go into Zoan mode, it'll do 300n force. Again though, as CP9 have shown through their power rating thing, a multiplier doesn't matter if you don't have the strength to begin with. I mean you could give Usoppu (pre TimeSkip) a Zoan ability, but his punch strength is only 5n force, so having a 3x multi would give him 15n force, which doesn't compare to the 100n force of Lucci. These are examples, I'm just using random numbers, but I think you get the idea. WB was a beast, look at the size of his guns (muscles). There are people who train for Strength and those who train for speed and WB was clearly the former. If his ability wasn't Quake but some Giant Zoan, his punch would have taken out Akainu through brute strength alone, that that would have been imba.
Woops, got a bit off topic, but I'm saying that Zoan would most likely get rid of BB's weakness, and that would make him too imba.

1. The cerberus df could have made his body as Marco said "asymmetrical" that allowed him to consume another two devil fruits. And the theory (not mine btw but I do support it) is that BB already have the Cerberus df long before acquiring tthe yami yami nomi. BB and Shanks could have fought while BB already possessing the df that might have surprised Shanks that resulted to a claw like wound on his eye. Plus We don't know how old they were when they fought. They could have fought when Shanks was still an apprentice on Roger and wasn't even close to his prime.

2. I agree with your analysis. And basing on that we would actually see that BB having a zoan df won't make him imba. As you said if Usopp gets a zoan df he would still be generally weak. It goes that one can't weild a df power to it's fullest potential if the user isn't strong in the first place. BB ain't the strongest nor the toughest guy out there. A zoan body would multiply his strength and endurance but it won't be overpowered as his base strength is just ok. And basing on BB's past fights, he has become too dependent on his df. He will probably neglect improving these aspects of his arsenal. I admit it would still be a tall order to deal damage to BB but an elite strength would be able to penetrate it and Luffy has elite power to do so. I mean if Luffy could pack the same power on his punch like WB, he could inflict enough pain to BB to put him unconscious.

[Light-kun]

I think it is likely that BB had some kind of power before the Yami Yami no mi.
I just can't think that he could wound Shanks (a Haki user) without some power.
Maybe he hid his Zoan DF and surprised Red Hair when they fought.
The fight between BB and Shanks had to be before Ace set out to become a pirate and before Shanks had lost his arm. (So when Shanks was on par with Mihawk)