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  1. #61
    Pervy Sage bluntman_exe's Avatar
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    Haha good parody sirxxx.

    But yeah Paulbee is right Naruto is mostly a simple guy who gets ahead through sheer determination + stamina, as well as being able to pull crazy things off in big fights.
    He prevents things getting heavy like in seinen manga.

  2. #62
    The Heropon! Sirxxx's Avatar
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    To paulbee (really liked your response) and others: I don't deny that the solution to the problems Naruto faces would require thousands of moving pieces to click in JUST the right way in about a 0.0024 millisecond window of time (both in the manga and the real world.) So I don't deride the fact that he doesn't have a plan and know exactly how to deal with everything and everyone that's going on right now...

    ...it's the fact that he doesn't seem to have any MOTIVATIONS that gets me (and I believe that's the point that artifice was trying to make, too)! Even if he doesn't yet have a plan, surely he could regal someone, just once, with at least some of his own reasonings to counteract theirs. Offer up some fresh perspective. Give someone some insight into his inner moral processing. Just once, Explain WHY you want to end this war, WHY you're so hellbent on saving one person from darkness (and don't use the 'bond' thing--that motivation just makes Naruto look childishly selfish), WHY Sasuke should be forgiven. It doesn't even have to be why Sasuke should be forgiven--just why HE THINKS Sasuke should be forgiven.

    It would make us sympathize more with him, because we can understand and thus empathize with his struggle. And that's just not the case now. He only seem to volunteer himself for these damn near mission-impossible, world-changing, tremendously-difficult tasks because he's put upon by everyone else--by Sakura, by his dad, by Jaraiya, by Pain, by Itachi, and, ultimately by the story itself (because it seems he's only doing these things because he's the main character).

  3. #63
    LOL, U MAD? Arbitrary's Avatar
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    I like how Itachi and Nagato are figuring things out. They'll be huge for this war.

  4. #64
    Senior Member Zero's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arbitrary View Post
    I like how Itachi and Nagato are figuring things out. They'll be huge for this war.
    They are basically the best couple ehm I mean team of this manga xD.



    @Sirxxx, your questions have already been more or less answered.

    Naruto could be the way the current Sasuke is, if he had made one mistake (those are his inner thoughts). One reason to save Sasuke, is that Naruto would like to be saved as well, if he had fallen to darkness. Sasuke is like brother to him and we have seen a brother that killed everyone in his clan and became the cursed bad guy even in his own brothers eyes, mainly for his brothers sake (for village's peace as well, but still mainly for his brother). Naruto would be evil, if not for the warmth, the few people bestowed upon him. The trust he has been given, to change the world, to attain true peace, is just an upgrade to his original wish/dream of obtaining respect and showing what he really is made off.

    Sasuke isn't really that bad. He killed like 2 people (if we count Danzou - suicide and Itachi - died from overusing his own powers(?), I'm not sure about cloud ninjas) ? It's true that he tired to kill many people, but that already is less that most shinobi have did in their lives. He is dangerous, the same way the kid with a bijuu is, does it mean he should just be killed ? Basically, a normal shinobi had done more bad than Sasuke.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sirxxx View Post
    Almost jizzed in my pants there! Oh no, you can rest assured that it is horrible writing on the part of Kishi, and if this manga was more psychologically-based (Death Note-ish) than action-based, it would've crashed and burned in the second half, and for exactly the reasons you point out: Naruto has not ONCE offered any counter-argument, any cohesive analysis, any personal beliefs or principles that compel him, or any thoughtful insight into hatred and the people who carry it, any...NOTHING!

    Seriously:
    Itachi--"You are such a child. Sometimes being a ninja means making difficult decisions etc. etc."
    Naruto--"Nuh-uhn. I don't go back on my word. That's why I'm refuting everything you just said while offering you absolutely no counter to your very realistic observation. Believe it!"
    Itachi--*thinking* "Maybe he'll STFU if I stuff a crow in his mouth..."

    Pain--"I've fought my entire life, through unbelievable hardship and pain, to change the hatred of this world, but it was not that easy. Jaraiya spoke of people truly understanding one another, but even when I tried, getting everyone else to do it was no easy task, and in the end, I had to take another route to find peace. WTF makes you think you're qualified to do this?"
    Naruto--"Cause I believe in what Jaraiya believes."
    Pain--"Umm...ok. What does his beliefs mean to you? Can you explain how you plan to incorporate or act on his beliefs? In what ways will you help spread his hope of people understanding one another? How would you face the hatred of this world?"
    Naruto--"You want me to show that I've actually thought about these things for even a minute? Sorry: can't help you there. I haven't examined any past feuds, future relationships between lands, centuries-old rivalries, or underground dealings."
    Pain--"So how can you possbily hope to..."
    Naruto--"I believe in what he believed in! Believe it!!!"
    Pain--"... ... wait...but... ...*sigh* Konan, you got some leftover paper you can smother me with?"

    Raikage--"You bow your head to ask the pardon of an international criminal. The ninja world does not look on that as strength."
    Naruto--"Yeah, I know all that. But please forgive Sasuke anyway, even though I offer you no substantive reason whatsoever that you should after he attacked your freaking brother AND your country. Believe it!"
    Raikage--"You're kinda stupid, aren't you?"
    Naruto--*continues weeping softly into the snow*

    Gaara--"You dumb fucker you, I JUST heard, straight from Sasuke's mouth, that not only has he shut his eyes to the light, but all of his goals lie in the darkness, which means that he's purposefully seeking to be more evil. Think hard about what you can really do for Sasuke a.k.a. realize you can't Hug no Jutsu his ass."
    Naruto--"Like, get your hand off of me! I would totally throw away my friendship with you that has completely turned your life around, and disrespect the leader of an entire other country while I'm at it, to defend Sasuke even though he just attacked the leaders of every major country in the known world."
    Gaara--"So...you gonna explain your position, maybe offer some kind of plan of action that doesn't involve every Kage sticking an explosive kunai right up his ass?"
    Naruto--"Nope! Believe it!" *hyperventilates and passes out*

    Sasuke--"Listen dude, I just made a serious attempt at killing freaking SAKURA, my fellow ex-Team 7 member, after seriously attempting to kill both Danzo and Karin about 8 times each *aside: and hell, I wasn't even fighting Karin* AND trying to murder my old teacher Kakashi. What part of 'I'm a murderous psychopath douchebag now' don't you understand?!"
    Naruto--"Well, instead of offering you some reason why you should let go of your hate, or empathizing(sp) with your murdered clan syndrome, I'll just remind you again that we have a 'Bond'. So your problems and/or broken psyche don't matter. Let's die together!!! lol!11!"

    Kyuubi--"Naruto, I've been in you the whole time, so believe me when I say: You're near goddamn radioactive levels of mental retardation! That being said, I've been around for hundreds, maybe thousands of years. I've seen countless wars, and I know for a fact that you can't just roll up in there like you think you can and make everyone friends again. You couldn't even do it with one person, how in the holy blue hell do you propose to do it for the entire world AND the evil guy who kills people on a whim?"
    Naruto--"You underestimate the depth of the plan that I don't have. I'll do something about Sasuke AND this war."
    Kyuubi--"Wh...whi...WHAT THE FUCK IS 'SOMETHING'?"
    Naruto--"Exactly what it sounds like: My fool-proof/fool-prone plan!"
    Kyuubi--"Well at least give me some hint as to what it involves? Anything?!"
    Naruto--"I told you already. Here's the plan one more time: Something! Believe it!!!"
    Kyuubi--*brain aneurysm*

    That's pretty much how every conversation goes with Naruto. He doesn't really seem to have any motivation or purpose to doing any of this, as he hasn't suffered any pain of war that he wants to save anyone from (like Itachi). And neither has he been shown to have a particularly strong moral compass. He really is just doing and saying all this because he's a main character.
    This essentially sums it up. What I find most amusing (or sad) is that this doesn't even differ that much from the dialog in the actual manga. Most of the people who Naruto ends up challenging are trying to deal with the same problems that he is, yet they have been forced to face hard realities which Naruto is ignorant to. Naruto is challenged with hard facts, by people who already tried to put an end to the hatred, people who have been humbled by failure (like Jiraiya) or destroyed by the costs (like Nagato and Itachi). They ask Naruto what he intends to do differently, yet he offers clichéd catch phrases that show no depth of thought.

    Naruto's view of heroism is little more than righteous indignation. His intentions are good but that can be said of most of the villains of the series as well. The difference in Naruto's case is that his hardships don’t tend to include much that a good power up or hug can’t solve. One of the things I really appreciated about Itachi's storyline was that it showed a hard reality of human conflict. It demonstrated that when it comes to issues of human nature, being the strongest is not enough, ending wars is not as simple as killing the bad guys. Suspicion and fear are not ended by grand acts of heroism and negotiations often fail. In the case of the Uchiha revolt, there was hatred and fear on both sides that wasn’t going to be solved by talking or by simply bringing down justice on a few people and that is typically the challenge when dealing with hatred between groups of people.

    I find it harder and harder to empathize with the main characters because they almost always find a way to win without having to deal with the real horrors or costs that tend to go along with such victories. I find it frustrating that Kishimoto seems capable of depicting such complexities, as he has shown in the lives of many of the older characters, yet he neglects that in Naruto himself.

    I am called to mind the words Ozymandias spoke to Daniel near the end of 'Watchmen' "Do grow up. My new world demands less obvious acts of heroism making your school boy heroics redundant. What have they achieved? Failing to prevent the earth's salvation is your only triumph and yet that failure overshadows ever past success." This reminds me of Naruto, running in guns blazing and screaming angrily at the bad guys when they hurt his friends but when faced with questions concerning the big issues his offerings are pitifully insubstantial.

    Naruto tends to overlook major issues in favor of minor personal concerns, when he confronts the Raikage for example and asks him to spare Sasuke, he puts Sasuke's life above that of others simply because he is personally attached to Sasuke. Wanting to save Sasuke is noble but demanding that others let him go, in the process putting many lives at risk, is an act of a self righteousness. Naruto wanting to save Sasuke is not the problem, the problem is that Naruto is protecting Sasuke from justice and by doing so Naruto is enabling him.

  6. #66
    Senior Member Zero's Avatar
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    I can't say that it isn't like that, but Naruto isn't really one story, more accurately the story is splitted. One about Naruto, who is good, hard working... a story that aims at young people, after all it's a shonen. The other one, the story of every other character, with is closer to real life problems. The big amount of Naruto fans in a wide range of age, is exactly thanks to that aspect, but the story isn't always so clearly splitted. It's blending is very important, as it keeps the young fans, that have already grown up a little, still hooked at the story. It shows Naruto as an great example of what people with great will and intentions whant to achieve, but how sadly most only fail and loose hope (all the older cast ). It's a confrontation between beautiful dream and brutal reality.

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